May 12, 2009 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #589768
anyone ever hear if an avel can listen to music on lag baomer? (please leave out the “why would they want to” comments and just answer a simple yes or no)
thanksMay 12, 2009 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #645375
Trust me, I did my 11 months as a teen so you won’t get any why would you want to from me. I can’t quote anything but I doubt it. I don’t think an avel can go to a chasuna today etc. either.May 12, 2009 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #645376
b.e.-why should they be allowed to?
~a~May 12, 2009 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #645377
i believe be is wondering:
if Lag B’Omer is a heter for listening to music during Sefirah, which is compared to aveilus, perhaps it is a heter for availus itself?
quite an excellent questionMay 12, 2009 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #645378
Belev Echad, somebody gave me “Mourning in Halachah” by Rabbi Chaim Binyamin Goldberg when my dad died. I will check in the book for you.
There’s no topic of listening to music on Lag Baomer in the index, but
according to Rabbi Goldberg (25:31) “During the entire twelve months of mourning, the mourner is forbidden to listen to a musical performance, even if it is not a celebration…”May 12, 2009 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #645379
Through my work with the Chevra Kadisha we have had shiurim on all these issues and I can tell you that one may not listen to music on Lag B’omer if one is an Ovol.
Tzippi you are correct an Ovol may not go to a wedding either.
An Ovol is an Ovol.
Feivel you use the word Heter. Whilst I would never, ever, ever Chus V’shulem tell any Ovol what to do or what is right or wrong and yes I have been there and more than once, I would like to add an addendum here and forgive me if I am out of turn, who would want to look for a Heter for any occasion or anything when Hashem has given us such a special opportunity of one whole year to observe extra special Kibbud Ov V’aim a time that we will never have again.
May Hashem give strength to all Aveilim throughout their hard, dark days.May 12, 2009 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #645380
i take no offense but a heter is a heter. it is a very, very important component of Halachah. it is not a bad thing. the greatest Poskim often would spend hours of their precious time searching to find a heter for someone in need.
even for availus, not everyone is holding at such a high madrayga as you. in answer to your question, many times during availus a family simcha, such as a daughters Chasunah might arise, and one might look for heterim, even during availus, to be there for ones precious child. there could be many more reasons for looking for heterim during availus.
i do agree in general though with your lofty understanding of what availus isMay 12, 2009 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #645381
Lag B’Omer is not a heter for listening to music during sfira, which is aveilus.
There is no aveilus of sfira during Lag B’Omer (with regards to music). However, an avel will still have their other aveilus, and as such, will not be able to listen to music.
To phrase it in Yeshivish, it is Hutra, not d’chooya.May 12, 2009 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #645383
ok thanks for your answers everybodyMay 12, 2009 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #645384
Sometimes when people ask about heterim during aveilus, like a relative’s chasuna, it’s not for them so much as the relative having the simcha. Imagine a newly orphaned kallah who not only won’t have her mother at her chasuna, she can’t even have her sisters there? So, as with all of life, there are many nuances.May 12, 2009 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #645386
It seems to me that if an avel can listed to music during his/her aveilut, Lag Baomer is no different. When my father died I was told that I could listen to music as it is not a simcha m’reiut for me. I always listen to music at every opportunity and it is simply part and parcel of my lifestyle. Aveilut does not require one to alter his/her basic lifestyle. It does require that one curtail joyous activities.May 12, 2009 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #645387
Feivel please forgive me in that I did not mean to question what a heter is. I am well aware what a heter is and of the importance to use one at times. My words were very clear and the example you raise about a wedding of family is interesting.
But…………Halacha is Halacha and a Heter is a Heter. I will say no more.
Just to finish my understanding is not lofty – that’s rather insulting. It’s just crystal absolute clear not hetering (is there such a word?!) of AvailusMay 12, 2009 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #645388
here we go again….May 12, 2009 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #645389
I can only tryMember
Reading “feivel”s post, it’s 100% clear that he was not being insulting.
Rather, he was praising the approach you take to aveilus for a parent; that it is “a special opportunity of one whole year to observe extra special Kibbud Ov V’aim a time that we will never have again”.May 12, 2009 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #645390
WHAT! tzipi, if an avel’s sister gets married there is a real shaila if the avel can attend? does anyone know more info about this- is this something that heterim come easily about or is it a real question?May 12, 2009 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #645391
real question. my cousin got married within the year for her father. i know they all went and they were allowed to hear music but they were only allowed to dance for a very short amount of time. the girls were allowed a little longer because their sister was the kalla, but it was stricter for the boys because the chosson doesn’t really need his brothers-in-law to dance that much for him to be happy.
i think every rov will say different things but that was the psak they got.
dreadful wedding either way.May 13, 2009 3:23 am at 3:23 am #645393
i can only try:
thank you.May 13, 2009 3:29 am at 3:29 am #645394
Belev Echad, some people (mourners) attend weddings of close friends and family and sit outside at a table designated for them.
I’m not really that strict with many things but for some reason, when my dad died, I felt guilty not keeping the halachot. I didn’t dance by a close friend’s wedding which was HUGE for me (I’m a dancer…)
I don’t know if heterim are easy to get, but you could always ask a Rabbi if you want to do the right thing.May 13, 2009 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #645395
Belev echad, YMMV. A dear friend lost her mother shortly before her chasuna and all her siblings attended the chasuna (and ate at a table outside the main room) but go so many different answers depending on whom they asked. One brother shaved, another didn’t e.g. I don’t remember about dancing. There were factors such as the need to be mesameiach the kallah, and be there for the elder widowed father who’s heart was breaking enough.May 13, 2009 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #645396
the attitude that a Mitzvah is a precious opportunity and privilege, not a burden to seek to lighten with heterim, which you expressed, i find to be not only lofty but certainly much desired by Hashem. i did not state this sarcastically.
the only potential (friendly) disagreement i had with your statement (not with you, who i highly respect) was that you seemed to be expressing the feeling that a heter is something undesirable, while i meant to clarify that there are circumstances where a Halachically sanctioned heter can be a good thing.
we perhaps misunderstood each other, something very easily done in a written format.
feivelMay 13, 2009 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #645397
My father was an avel during my wedding. He was told he could not have an assigned seat. So we left a few seats open on a few tables and he made the rounds 😉May 13, 2009 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #645398
in such situations, the best thing to do is…
ask your LOR!
Also, the avielus of Sefira is NOT Deoriasa. Meaning, in the first original sefira, it was a time a joyous albeit serious preparation, getting ready to recieve the Torah.
Only AFTER were the Talmidim or R’ Akiva niftar, and therefor Chazal instituted Avielus. Hence the Avielus we observe in this time is not complete (and only focused on)Avielus.
Therefor i don’t believe one can make the connection of a being allowed to listen to music during Sefira, and an Avel being allowed to listen.
but once again… ask your LOR!May 13, 2009 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #645399
ambush: aveilus is never d’oraisa, but you are correct that sefira is not true aveilus and therefore it is waived on Lag B’Omer while true aveilus certainly is not.
The word “heter” is often a misnomer. Simply, to a Posek who knows the Halacha well, the issur never applied under the circumstances he is permitting.May 13, 2009 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #645400
thanksMay 14, 2009 3:22 am at 3:22 am #645401
No. Even if Lag B’omer is a suspension of the Miktzas aveilus ocurring during sefira, it does not override the ACTUAL and full aveilus that one must observe on the loss of a parent chalilah.May 14, 2009 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #645402
Is Sefira “aveilus”? Are we allowed to wear new clothing? Build a binyan shel simcha?
I dont know the answer to this question, and I was hoping all the Poskim on YWN would help me out here. Where is it brought down that one can not listen to music during sefira (I am not implying that we can or arguing on a minhag), all I see in the mechaber is that we should not take haircuts and make chasunas. Where does music fit in?May 14, 2009 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #645403
Hmmmmmm….ok, tell me what you think about this thought- if an avel gets engaged, is it normal to push off the wedding till after the year is up? like, 6, 8 months?May 15, 2009 3:21 am at 3:21 am #645404
Is Sefira “aveilus”? Are we allowed to wear new clothing? Build a binyan shel simcha?
Sefira is “miktzas aveilus” a small part of aveilus. Haircuts and shaving are not done, and live music is not listened to. I was told by my son The Tzaddik (just kidding, he IS a tzaddik, but we don’t call him that), that he learned in Yeshivah both here and in E”Y, that contrary to popular belief, one may wear new clothing, especially if it is necessary new clothing. It is not the same form of aveilus that we observe during the Three Weeks and Nine Days. We always held not to even buy new stuff during sefira much less use it, but that, I have come to learn over the past few years, is not an halachic opinion held by many.May 15, 2009 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #645405
“Sefira is “miktzas aveilus” a small part of aveilus. Haircuts and shaving are not done, and live music is not listened to.”
Where does the statement “live music is not listened to” come from? Who, what and where is the source for this? Mechaber? Rema? Mishna Berura? Other nosei keilim? This statement implies “non live” music IS (permitted, to be)listened to. Who or what is the source for the distinction between live and pre-recorded music? Is it limited to music? What about other sources of entertainment such as singing and dancing? Is that permitted? If yes, why is it different than music? Who drew these distinctions and what is the basis for them (assuming they are all correct).May 15, 2009 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #645406
However, there are various degrees of heteirim: During the year we need music to calm our nerves. Also music during the year music is permitted for a s’udas mitzva.
But it could be that according to the M’chaber and Rav Moshe, the music that they assur all year is lively music, not classical or dirges. So perhaps this type of music would be permitted during s’fira as well (it IS muter according to Rav Saloveichik and my Rav). Can this logic be extended to an avel all year, and during s’fira. I don’t think anyone will give a public heter, however, maybe yes to a private heter.May 15, 2009 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #645407
Jphone – I was specifically taught that in the privacy of my car or home, I absolutely could listen to the radio or a tape. I CHOOSE not to do so during sefira. During the Three Weeks, there is no question about this, as it is aveilus for the Churban. But Sefira is not that same type of aveilus.
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