can i date a girl without Shadchan????????/

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  • #808731
    Health
    Participant

    MikeC – SEE MIKE it’s like this – Should and have to are two different things!

    #808732
    MichaelC
    Member

    Hey, just because I let you post inaccurate halacha, does not mean I will let you say that. -95

    #808733
    Health
    Participant

    Mods – Please Close!

    #808735
    MichaelC
    Member

    To Health: The Rabbi I spoke with today told me my Rav included everyone, it was not unique to me!

    #808736
    MichaelC
    Member

    Health and Sam2 why don’t you ask one of the Gedolim (those who have a eidetic memory) and learn all day and our over 70. Are you scared???

    #808737
    MiddlePath
    Participant

    My mashgiach in my previous yeshiva encouraged me to date girls through myself, without a third party involved, because he felt I can handle it properly. To others, he advised using a shadchan. So I would say using shadchan is great if you need it.

    #808738
    Health
    Participant

    Mike C – Read above my post about should and have to. You just don’t get it.

    #808739
    MichaelC
    Member

    Close the thread and I will have proven my point. You are all scared of the truth.

    This mod thinks you are trolling. But it seems pretty harmless to me. Don’t feed the trolls. -95

    #808740
    Sam2
    Participant

    Since when is an eidetic memory a prerequisite for a Gadol?

    #808741
    MichaelC
    Member

    you don’t get it

    #808742
    MichaelC
    Member

    Read my post’s Health.

    #808743
    MichaelC
    Member

    Ok I gotta go-Good Shabbos

    good shabbos -95

    #808744
    Sam2
    Participant

    Here is what I do get: You have an agenda. You admitted it. You probably feel like it is better for K’lal Yisrael if everyone listens to you on this. That does not give you any right to misrepresent sources and fake Halachah.

    #808745
    rikki2
    Member

    it would be wonderful in theory not to need a shadchan. however we are not malachim. the rambam says men should stay far away from women.

    If every man/boy was able to get to know women/girls on their own many being overly tempted to do all kinds of avaros.

    This leaves us little choice but to have a shadchan.

    if someone is older and by chance knows someone single it’s no avara to ask them for a date(especially widows and widowers) but in general especially with young boys and girls its a terribly dangerous and naive.

    there is a reason why we use a shadchan,and we shouldn’t be poretz gedder.

    #808746
    Toi
    Participant

    okeedokee. i think this is the wackiest thread ever seen. i propose (pardon the pun) to be the shadchan. for who? michael c and…. basket of radishes. cmon. einfal of the century.

    #808747
    Sam2
    Participant

    MichaelC: I’m still waiting for you to “refute my refutations”.

    #808748
    MichaelC
    Member

    Ok so look at Tanach, many cases it does not say ‘explicitly’ a Shadchan was used, this is because it is ‘obivious’ one was used, therefore the text had no need to mention it . So if you like ‘rikki’ would read my ‘history of the Shadchan’ post more carefully and ‘not’ accuse me of ‘twisting’ Halacha, then maybe you would not stigmatize me (copying popas bar abba assumption) to say I have a ‘agenda'(which you you and Health mentioned at least 10 times).

    The point i was making that even in the extreme cases where it seems no shadchan was used, there is a proof that one was used, or in Dovid Hamelech’s case (Batsheva was destined to him since the Six Day’s of Creation), or Yaakov’s case as he was extremely old, even in those cases (although not said explicitly, see above), a Shadchan was probably used.

    Why are you and Health constantly fighting me on this, it’s as if you and Health have a ‘agenda’.

    #808749
    adams
    Participant

    “After World War 2 many people were single, and older (Holocaust survivors) so the Rabbanim made Heterim for marriage without Shadchanim (when media was still in black and white). However these were not the Midos Chassidic people. The ‘holier’ Yidden even in this time with these circumstances used Shadchanim.”

    This is offensive and you lose any legitimacy you may have had. Who the heck are you to judge people who went throught the holocaust and then did or didn’t use a Shadchan? It looks like you copy pasted this from some sick web site, please edit that out in your future postings. Edit out the moral high ground when talking about a situation you have never had to face.

    #808750
    MichaelC
    Member

    I am just stating the general metzia/matsav of that time.

    #808751
    MichaelC
    Member

    and no i diddn’t ‘copy pasted this from some sick web site’ a Chassidishe Rabbi told me all this on Friday, and I agree with him

    #808752
    Sam2
    Participant

    MichaelC: You admitted in an earlier post that your agenda is to get everyone to use Shadchanim. My only “agenda” is to ensure that someone doesn’t twist sources to make Halachah say something it doesn’t. If you want to say that you feel it is inappropriate to meet members of the opposite gender by any way other than through a Shadchan, that’s a fine opinion to have. But don’t misrepresent sources to make it like a Halachah.

    Your response to my refutations is “You’re right, they’re not mentioned but it’s obvious that a Shadchan was used.” Just so we’re clear on what this means, you used a source to prove your point but your source is only a proof if you assume your point is always true. Nice proof.

    #808753
    MichaelC
    Member

    I spoke to the Chassidishe Rabbi again.

    First I want to apologise for misleading all of you!

    I told everyone that every person in Tanach and Chazal used a Shadchan. I also said that in all cases a person needs a Shadchan.

    In Tanach it is clear many people never used Shadchanim-but they had Heterim.

    For example Yaakov Avinu was 84, and never used a Shadchan. So if you are 84 and have not sinned all your life like Yaakov then you can do it without a Shadchan.

    Moshe Rabbeinu did use a Shadchan, this is clear, when Yisro said ‘I am giving you my daughter as a wife’.

    Shimshon never used a Shadchan, but Talmud Sotah reproaches him for this (he went after his eyes so the philistines gorged his eyes), we can learn from this if you don’t use a Shadchan and follow your eyes you will end up marrying a goy (Samson married philistine Delilah).

    Dovid Hamelech never used a Shadchan with Bat Sheva as Talmud Shabbos says she was destined to him from the Six Days of Creation.

    Dovid Hamelech took Michal, because he killed Goliath and Shaul (her farther) said anyone who kills Goliath will get my daughter, therefore no Shadchan was needed.

    Rabbi Akiva dated Rochel without a Shadchan (this was when he was a Am Haaretz).

    There was a Tanna who acquired ‘wife’s for the day’ (to stop him having ‘hirhurim royim’) when he traveled), this was done through a Shadchan.

    My Rov was telling the general law, people must have Shadchanim, in unique cases (like Rikki2 mentioned it may be a exception and no Shadchan is needed). In ‘Middle paths’ case his mashgiach gave him a Heter to not use a Shadchan, if this Masgiach is doing the right thing it depends if his case was ‘unique’ enough to give him a Heter.

    To use a Shaddchan is a Minhag based on a Geder.

    The Magen Avrohom mentioned in Sefer Matmonim (a Minhag Sefer we all use, a few hundread years old Sefer)that we should use a Shadchan as Avrohom (the first Yid in the world) used a Shadchan for his son Yitzcok.

    This was before Maten Torah, but it says in the Talmud the Avos kept the whole Torah before it was given.

    The Sfas Emes was asked by someone if he needs a Shadchan, he answered we learn that when Hashem gave the Yidden the Torah, he gave it through a Shadchan (Moshe Rabbeinu)-the relationship between Hashem and the Yidden is compared to a Chosson and Kallah as we say in the wedding ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???????.

    To those who called me a ‘Baal Teshuva’ for misunderstanding Minhagim, here is my response. There are 2 types of Minhagim.

    1) Some people keep, e.g. Belz keep certain Minhagim, Ger keep others.

    2) all people keep, e.g. those who keep Mingahagim keep the ‘Shadchan’ Minhag.

    The Reason the Rama does not mention it in the Shulchan Aruch, is because it is obvious, the ‘right’ thing to do is use a Shadchan.

    I also want to apologies for saying there was a Shadchan used by those bochurim and dancing ‘Bnos Yerushalayim’ in the vineyards on Tubi Av. Most Meforshim there say the women said ????? ?? not a Shadchan, but one commentatator asks why the women can speak to the men (he can’t remember which one says that).

    There is a commentator there called Meleches Shlomo who says ‘this thing was only for people who did not succeed in the normal way and without this they would be single till there hair turned white therefore they made this Minhag’ of allowing them to marry without a Shadchan.

    In conclusion ‘be a Kosher Yid, use a Shadchan, ask your Rov, he may give you a heter not to use a Shadchan if you are a unique case.

    #808754
    Sam2
    Participant

    So, once again, you have no source. By the way, the Gemara you reference was two Amorai’m, not Tannaim (Yevamos 37b, I believe but I could be off by a daf or two; it is an Amud b around 15-20 lines down). And the Gemara there clearly gives two answers how such a thing worked. In one of them they sent Shlichim a few weeks early but according to the other answer they would be Meyached the girl (Machlokes Rishonim as to what that means) when they got there, without a Shaliach.

    #808755
    adams
    Participant

    No that’s stupid advice. Part of the reason there is a shidduch crisis is because of the over-reliance on the third party. In earlier decades Kosher Yidden met on their own, through the shule functions or whatever. They made beautiful families and the infrastructure for latter day ascetics to malign.

    The crisis is too serious to be relagated to silly arbitrary rules like not talking to a girl on your own.

    So you keep on your ways, and report to us when you are engages, married, and have children. You are too wrapped up in labels and

    affectations to see the reality of life I am afraid.

    Yes use a Shadachan if you wish but don’t deny others how they want to go about this.

    Regarding the holocaust and shadchanim if that Rov said that there were more Kosher Yidden over others that is disgraceful you are wasting your time talking to him.

    This is a very sad thread to read but tell us of your progress.

    #808756
    MichaelC
    Member

    Moderator’s please close this thread.

    #808757
    MichaelC
    Member

    Ok i was all wrong, you are all right, happy now?

    #808758
    MichaelC
    Member

    listen to sam2 get married without a Shadchan

    #808759
    MichaelC
    Member

    ok moderators its better you don’t post that, i will speak to the chassidishe rabbi tommorow and refute sam2 .

    #808760
    oomis
    Participant

    “For example Yaakov Avinu was 84, and never used a Shadchan. So if you are 84 and have not sinned all your life like Yaakov then you can do it without a Shadchan.”

    Who says that was the reason why he never needed a shadchan? Maybe if like Yaakov, you leave your parents’ home and live on your own, you should not need a shadchan.

    “Moshe Rabbeinu did use a Shadchan, this is clear, when Yisro said ‘I am giving you my daughter as a wife’.”

    He met Yocheved at the well (similar to Yaakov Avinu and Rochel), before he met Yisro. Yisro was his FIL not his shadchan.

    “Shimshon never used a Shadchan, but Talmud Sotah reproaches him for this (he went after his eyes so the philistines gorged his eyes), we can learn from this if you don’t use a Shadchan and follow your eyes you will end up marrying a goy (Samson married philistine Delilah).”

    Hoo boy! I never used a shadchan and I guarantee you neither my husband, my daughter-in-law, nor my son-in-law are goyim. Shimshon was a man who was nichshal, and for that he was punished, not for not having a shadchan. If he had a shadchan, he wouldn’t have lusted after Delilah?????

    “Dovid Hamelech never used a Shadchan with Bat Sheva as Talmud Shabbos says she was destined to him from the Six Days of Creation.”

    As are all our zivugim before we are even born.

    “Rabbi Akiva dated Rochel without a Shadchan (this was when he was a Am Haaretz).”

    A shadchan would NEVER have redt that shidduch, so B”H no shadchan was involved, or we would all be the poorer for not experiencing R’ Akiva’s gadlus and example of mesiras nefesh.

    #808761
    MichaelC
    Member

    Tzippora was being hurt by people (midrash) Moshe saved her.

    #808762
    MichaelC
    Member

    Ok i made my point, i am not expecting anyone to listen to me. Moderators you can close the thread if you want.

    #808766
    Health
    Participant

    Mike C -Your problem is that you think there can only be one way in Yiddishkeit. You started a topic to impress on e/o that there is only one way. Your attitude has been very poor in acknowledging your shortcomings. Had you came here and said -While the Halacha permits getting engaged and married without a Shadchan inbetween, the preferable way is to use a Shadchan. If you would have posted this, I highly doubt most people would have criticized you.

    Also, please don’t bring Rayos what the Halacha is from stories in the Tanach. Because if you do that, then people can say -What about Yehudah? I guess it’s Mutter to take a Zonah as long as there was a Shadchan inbetween. And of course we know this isn’t the case!

    #808767
    Sam2
    Participant

    MichaelC: That is just insulting and entirely uncalled for. You have no reason to call anyone who won’t listen to your made-up Halacha as lacking of knowledge in Torah Sheba’al Peh. I’m not going to brag or claim anything that I have learned, but I will say that I think I have “discovered” Torah Sheba’al Peh.

    #808768

    Tosfos(kesubos 4a) discusses a scenario where the husband of a dead woman proposes to her sister at the burial. Tosfos says that is called shiduchin. It is clear from context that there was no “shadchan”, and we can infer what the term shiduchin refers to.

    #808771
    MichaelC
    Member

    I cannot refute the people who refuted me, as the moderators won’t print my refutation.

    #808774
    oomis
    Participant

    “Number 2) is something you may have not discoverd yet, but don’t worry with time you will. “

    Uncalled-for comment Michael. Menschlechkeit is also in the Oral Law. Please re-read all the parts you accidentally skipped over the first time.

    #808775

    michaelc: Ok i made my point, i am not expecting anyone to listen to me. Moderators you can close the thread if you want.

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