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א בהעלותך תשלב
בסוף
ומתוך חומר עונש לשה””ר שהוא כעונש מיתה אנו למדים חומר החטא של לשה”ר ונצטוינו ללמוד את חומר החטא ע”י זכירת מעשה מרים שלדעת הרמב”ן והחרדים הוא מצות עשה מדאורייתא להזכיר מעשה מרים בכל יום ובכדי לשנן היטב חומר איסור זה של לשה”רThe Shlah Hakadash says that the purpose of mitzvas is to make a nachas ruach to Hashem and reward and punishment is a measuring stick on amount we do.
An excellent rayah that we DON’T look at the onesh to gauge the severity.
Loshon harah does not have misah nor a korvon nor malkod you might think it’s not so bad.
So sichos mussar points out no it’s terrible.Similarly hamlbin pnei chaveiro. There’s no onesh misah. No big deal, right? Wrong! It’s terrible keilu horgo!
Ai why don’t we gauge based on the onesh? Because while a good gauge and good rule of thumb. It isn’t absolute
ubiquitin, look at David Hamelech in Bava Metzia Perek Hazahav where he was ashamed in public in the middle of learning being questioned, who commits adultary how is his executed? He answered through chenek but has olam haboh, whereas who ashames someone in public does not.
I read the piece you quoted quite well. and again thank you for providing it
during our previous discussion if I had asked you wahts worse Lashon harah or Lying. You would have said (I assume) they are equal since the punishment for the two is the same .
Yet here you see that there are other factors that are taken into account. Lashon harah is far more severe. although if course it doesnt get a more severe punishment than lying. (Certainly not today when there is no tzoras, though to be fair I guess there is no misas beis din either)
Furthrmore the Gemara in Eirachin 16a says there are 7 aveiros that get tzoras על שבעה דברים נגעים באין על לשון הרע ועל שפיכות דמים ועל שבועת שוא ועל גילוי עריות ועל גסות הרוח ועל הגזל ועל צרות העין
So which is worse גסות הרוח or neveila?
I thought of a few more exscellent rayos that severity is not always judged by onesh (I guess you’d view them more exceptions to add on to the 5 or so that we had already)
1) Sanhedrin 75: relates of a man who was lovestruck and would die unless he was with a woman, or saw her or or spoke to her . The Rabbonim refused although she was single (according to one man deamar)
where does talking to a single girl rank in terms of onesh?and yet look how severe an aveira it is.
2) B”K 60: Brings the story of Daovid who asked the sanhedrin if he can destroy other’s money to save his life. Sanhedrin said no (except that he was a king so HE was allowed) Rashi learns this literally. IT is assur to save your life by destroying other’s property. (tos, and the Rosh among others argue and take it as a given that you can and learn the question there as whether youd have to pay)
See binyan Tzion 167 where he discussees this shaila lehalacha
See also teshuva 170 whregarding using a deceased’s organ “נלענ”ד דגם ע”פ שיטת התוספ’ והרא”ש אסור להציל החי ע”י ביזוי המת וכל שכן כיון דהביזוי והניוול הוא ודאי ואם יגיע הצלה לחי עי”ז הוא ספק ושב ואל תעשה עדיף”So I ask you what is a worse aveira nivul hameis or chilul shabbos?
what is the onesgh for each?According to Rashi whats worse stealing or chilul shabbos ?
again what is the onesh for each?The unifying these among most exceptions is as I said that the gauge of severity based on onesh applies bein adom lemakom. Bein adom lechaveiro we find many explicit cases that sometimes a less severe punishment is a worse aveira. (Though The exception you provided last thread about marrying a goyah doesnt fit my rubric well which the Rambam warns you is very severe in spite of the onesh not being severe
BTW
In our original discussion on this topic I said “As to why the Torah didnt mandate misah, maybe being meanes is so bad that he doesnt even deserve the kaparah of misas beis din? Or “I happen not to understand it. But I think that that is my short coming””You didnt like that explanation (“I can’t figure out that logic.”)
I found the mekorIt is a Maharsha Sanhedrin 64: Inn chidishei halachos
גמרא ומזרעך ולא כל זרעך כתב הסמ”ג לאווין מ’ ויש בזה טעם לתשובת המינים מפני שבמיתת ב”ד מתכפרין המומתין וזה עשה כ”כ עבירה גדולה שאין הקדוש ברוך הוא רוצה שיהא לו כפרה ומזה הטעם אני אומר כו’ עכ”ל ע”ש ומזה נראה לתת טעם הא דאמרינן בכל דוכתא דאין עונשין מן הדין אף על גב דק”ו מדה היא בתורה מכ”מ אין לדון כן לענין עונש דאימא זה שעשה עבירה החמורה מזו אינו מתכפר בעונש המפורש בקלה ממנה וק”ל:
original thread :https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/a-study-in-trolls-updated/page/2
On second thought
Isnt this line of the Mahrsha “אין לדון כן לענין עונש דאימא זה שעשה עבירה החמורה מזו אינו מתכפר בעונש המפורש בקלה” An explicit rayah to my position namely: That the more severe punishment does not necesarily indicate it is a more severe aveira ?
(Of course others can argue on the Marsha but hey a discerning reader will choose which of the two he wants to go with. 🙂 )
Also note
“Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment?”
To be clear, I’m obviously not saying it can NEVER be learnt from the onesh. Just that it can’t always be learnt from the onesh
KY
I too enjoy our discussion.
And youve gotten me to reevaluate and prove my position which is great.furthermore you got me to rethin another position, that is tangentially related to this, namely does every halachic position need “proof” or are some obvious.
My inital inclination was that some things are obvious, but I’m less sure now.
Incidentally do you know of any discussions regarding which is worse intermarriage or marrying someone who won’t keep taharas hamishpacha.
Using your framework I take it you’d say the latter is worse. To me, it is obvious that the former is worse, though I concede that I cant prove it (I have some weak rayahs up my sleeve but nothing worth sharing at the moment)
DO you (or anyone reading this ) know of any treatments on this topic?
Looking forward to Thursday
“Incidentally do you know of any discussions regarding which is worse intermarriage or marrying someone who won’t keep taharas hamishpacHa” this is a good question even without looking at the punishment: intermarriage might not even be a deoraisa ( unlesss is one of the 7 nations) , and taharas is ..
But it doesn’t seem to be treated as if taharas is worst. Otherwise it would make sense to tell non frum men to marry non Jewish so that the issur if nida doesn’t apply“Incidentally do you know of any discussions regarding which is worse intermarriage or marrying someone who won’t keep taharas hamishpacha.”
By intermarriage a kanoi can kill them; by nidda they are chyaiv misa bdei shamayim.
Which is a worse crime, Ripping toilet paper on shabbos to clean yourself or Killing someone with an axe and feeding the remains to a dog.
If you go by the punishment then ripping the toilet paper is worse since the punisment is segila . Killing someone I belive only gets Hanging
just me
“But it doesn’t seem to be treated as if taharas is worst. ”
thats my point. Strictly speaking based on punishment Nidah is worse. Yet “obviously” we dont treat it as such, otherwise there should be a movement promoting intermarriage amount the non-frum.
I don’t have a solid mekor for this though, and maybe yes we should promote intermarriage (or at the least not discourage it) to prevent the worse punishment/aveira
zahavasdad, that is an interesting and telling comparison.
We can conclude from your comparison that punishment does not indicate severity of sin since murder is such a serious sin, it is one of the three aveiros that one should let themselves be killed for rather than commit, but it is not a chiav to give up one’s life when being forced to rip toilet paper on Shabbos. In fact, one would be foolish to give up one’s life if forced to rip toilet paper on Shabbos. So if punishment would be accordingly to the severity of the sin, murder would have to have a much greater punishment, or rather tearing on Shabbos should not have such a severe punishment if punishment we’re meted out according to the severity of the sin.
Since we have a tendency to percieve some things as being small and irrelevant sins, I believe that severe punishment teaches us that these sins are not small and are not to be taken lightly. But it is still not an indicator how big or small a sin is.
There is mashal on this, where a king tells his servants to grow a garden of flowers. They get paid on the work they do. Some are more worthy than others, so they get paid more for it; The king does not tell them the pay for each because he wants a nice mix and not one or two types, but if they would know the pay for each, they would only plant the higher paid ones. Similarly. when it comes to mitzvos. Hashem, wants us to perform a mix because we don’t understand the effect it creates above.
The mashal above is from the Daas Zekenim MIbaalei Tosfas in the begining of parshas Eikev.
If someone has bulmus, hunger pang, we feed him the lighter sin. For shabbos its a sakonoh, so we slaughter for him rather give him naveloh. There is an argument between the RMA and Mechaber if shabbos is hutra or hudcha. If there is sakonoh on shabbos, if there is a goy around according the RMA use him, but according to the Mechaber you don’t need to. It is a actually a mitzva to use a talmid chacham, so that people should not learn from it. SA O’CH (328,12)
When we must tear toilet paper on shabbos, don’t tear on perforations in order not to cut to size.
When we must tear toilet paper on shabbos, don’t tear on perforations in order not to cut to size.
You missed the point, Which is a worse tearing D’Oraisa toilet paper to clean oneself or a brutal murder and disposing of the body in a horrible way.
Most people would certainly say murder is worse, but the punishment is worse for tearing the toilet paper
What does “severity” mean?
Shabbos is the foundation of Judaism. If you destroy the foundation, you destroy the whole building,
therefore the punishment is greater. If someone is mechaleh shabbos after admonishment, we can’t drink from his wine.Stoning is more severe than chenek or cherev.
See Rambam, Pirush Hamishna to Avos 2:1
ואמנם מצות לא תעשה באר הכתוב העונש על כל אחת מהן מלבד המעט מהן וחייב על קצתם המיתות ועל קצתם הכרת ומיתה בידי שמים ומלקות וידענו מענשי מצות לא תעשה כלם מה מהם איסורם גדול ומה מהם למטה ממנו והם שמנה מדרגות.It was part of the crime of brutally killing someone, It wasnt just feeding the dog
Basically it was killing someone and showing no respect for the Meis as well. About as depraved as you could possibly get
Lkwdguy
Yes it is generally true,
which is worse hiring a hitman to murder a family or eating neveila?
on second thought my Nidah “rayah” might not be one at all.
Its very possible that although we would rather he be with nidah than goya (an assertian I am being strictly based on sevara I would love any sources on this topic) , He is doing a worse aveira., but we would rather he do worse aveira for a greater good.
Although we don’t say חטא כדי שיזכה חברך, ( shabbos 4a) in the tzad that we did say that. Do we say the person doing the aveira still has an aveira, he is worse off for having done it , he will get an onesh/need kaparah. But do the aveira ie get the onesh, ie do the worse act, to benefit your friend.
Or no, in that tzad, it wouldnt be the worse act, NOT doing the aveira would be worse maybe he’d even get get punished for not doing the aveira . There has to be some discussion on this, I will go hunting over shabbos bl”n. Though I’m not certain it relates to our topicI just remembered Tosfos Gitin says that we force freeing of a slave (a lav) to allow a chatzi even chatzi ben chorin to allow because pru urvu is a great mitzvah.
what is pshat, when the baal frees the chatzi eved. does he get an aveira? Is he over a lav?
Are we saying go ahead do the aveira for the greater good In berachos we say for rabim too can free slave for minyan.
Or no in that case it isnt an aveira.?and does this have any relevance to our discussion ?
Yom Tov malochos with admonishment is malkus, Yom Kippur is kares and shabbos is skilah.
Similarly, the number called up for laining indicates this severity. Chal Hamoed 4,Yom Tov 5, Yom Kippur 6 and shabbos 7. A rabibinic prohibition is chayev misah. Explains R’ Yanoson Aibshutz ztz’l, the chazal are protectors of the palace of the King who have the right to shoot intruders on the spot.Sometimes the chazal assered more the less severe, Yom Tov over Shabbos by muktza, because he might desecrate it more. Ramban Hilchas Yom Tov (1,17) see Mishneh Lamelech.
The person who ripped the toilet paper because they soiled themself is not the same person who Drove to the Mall on Shabbos
As no one addressed my above point regarding intermarriage versus nidda, it is fair to say that everyone agrees with it.
Joseph
“As no one addressed my above point regarding intermarriage versus nidda, it is fair to say that everyone agrees with it.”Lol you didnt make a point (you rarely do)
And using your “logic” since you didn’t address ANY of my points, you agree with them. Interesting, I wouldnt have thoughtKY
regarding intermarriage vs Nidah,. I hear your point but you are dodging mine. Granted I said “marry” but my point holds for any union. In my experience we are more opposed to a Jew living with a goy than with a non-frum Jewess. Do you perceive it differently?
I don’t think it is merely the “technicality” that by a Goy the very union is wrong, while non-frum it is other aspects. But again, I do hear your distinction and perhaps this “rayah” that was already weak to begin with since I dont really have a mekor for it, is even weaker.Joseph, my dear, it’s time to put your toys away and put your pajamas on. There, now, time for bed!
Everyone, sorry for his last couple posts, I was taking out the trash and he somehow got hold of the keyboard. I’m surprised he actually typed something instead of just chewing on it.
KY
“I assume the punishment is a barometer of severity unless told otherwise,
You assume, what? That it’s random? Just a Hodge podge of punishments randomly assigned to sins? Help me out here.furthermore you got me to rethin another position, that is tangentially related to this, namely does every halachic position need “proof” or are some obvious.
Many are obvious, and don’t really NEED proof.
But they must all be provable”YES!
now this is the crux of our disagreement, and what I meant by lack of critical thinking.
when faced by a question “what is worse stealing or rape? ” there are 2 approaches:
1) Obviously rape is worse! what kind of question is that, aye why isnt there a worse onesh? good question, I’m not sure. Maybe it is yet another exception, to the general rule. but as they say fin a kasha shtarbt men nisht, perhaps the question is better than the tereitz . But that doesn’t change the reality.
or
2) well stealing gets a worse onesh so its worse. Aye Im pretty sure anybody would rather the former? I’ not even sure what the response is? Theyre wrong they should prefer the latter . This approach leads to really absurd conclusions that are logically untenable.
I mean should a penuyah submit to prevent her attacker from taking her money? could a thinking person even have such a hava amina?
again, I dont have PROOF that she shouldn’t.
do I need to provide proof?
Are you unsure?” You assume, what? That it’s random? Just a Hodge podge of punishments randomly assigned to sins? Help me out here.”
i’m not sure how to answer that. I dont understand what exactly it is about cursing a parent that warrants speciifly stoning vs hitting that warrants chenek. . that doesnt mean I think it is random.
“”I assume the punishment is a barometer of severity unless told otherwise,”
yes generally true. but what if it just cant be otherwise?
Unless you are saying that yes it is possible that stealing is worse than rape.
Is that a position you can accept?Or put another way. Both of us are stumped.
either
Of course rape is worse. I have no idea why it doesn’t get a worse punishmentOr
Of course stealing is worse, it has a worse punishment! I have no idea why rape seems so bad?What is pushing you to prefer the 2nd approach, especially when you concede that there are exceptions to the general rule ?
ub,etc
When you lack knowledge of the entire gamut of our teachings you have to go based on the pyramid
even if it’s not politically correct
and not based on some spliced statement taken out of contextMuch the same crowd once again trying to minimize the seriousness of Judaism
I will try to answer some for the momentNow there’s much to be learned from these serious statements made in our texts regarding slander or haughtiness they’re not meant to be taken literal
remarkable or not the same non-literalist on other issues are so literal all of a sudden over here for these
Baseline for Judaism is the pyramidal structure of punishment .however there’s other factors that must be taken into that edifice
eg, Shabbos even though it is more severe than murder which by the way is decapitation. is not one of the three Cardinal precepts For which for which an individual must forfeit their life for
Second one must factor in unintentional act as well for to kill unintentional they have to flee in Exile which is not the case for Shabbos
a kohan who kills unintentionally is not permitted ever more to go up and Duchan“Incidentally do you know of any discussions regarding which is worse intermarriage or marrying someone who won’t keep taharas hamishpacha.
Actually remarkably was discussed it was actually rather topical in the later 70s
and it was addressed in an article published in the Jewish Observer 1977 from none other than Rabbi Yaakov KamenetskyKY
“No. לשה”ר is much worse. It gets צרעת”
Interesting.
where does tzoras rank on the order of onshim?“So which is worse גסות הרוח or neveila?
גסות הרוח.”
So If a person has a choice between being haughty or eating neveilah, youd tell him to eat the neveila?“In his specific instance, he was beyond love struck. His talking to her was just a cover to having a mental connection to her. Ie. Fulfill his fantasy. In that case חזל said it’s אבוזריהו דארייות ויהרג ועל יעבור”
sooooooo, severity of onesh does not ALWAYS translate to severity of aveira.
“This one seems so easy you must have a trick up your sleeve.
חילול שבת-סקילה is much worse
ניבול המת I’m not sure there is any עונש down here for it.”No trick,. though the defintion of “worse” is getting a bit muddled.
If a person is dying, and to save him we can either be menavel a mes or be mechale shabbos. Accordign to the Binyan Tziyon he should be mechalel Shabbos.
why would you do the worse averia, when we can do less severe one?“To be clear, I’m obviously not saying it can NEVER be learnt from the onesh. Just that it can’t always be learnt from the onesh
Well well well
Once you go there we are not really arguing anymore.”hold up, I said that from the get go!
Its a beferish gemra in multiple places.I mentioned several times, that perhaps there was a distiction bein adom lemakom vs bein adom lacheveiro (Though Nidah/goyha doesnt fit well, maybe we can borrow your distiction
There’s other things in the algorithm but midrashic statements are not necessarily included
There are more than a few sources that the pyramidal structure of punishment is the Baseline for our faith t that is besides the fact that the higher punishment always overrides the lower punishment
and the fact that when it comes to action and inaction the punishment when it comes to weighing that the Judgment of priority is set is the of the gravityonce more there are other factors And caveats that need to be considered as well
“I meant that if one sins with a married women there is a punishment, equals cleansing, but if she is single there is none. That would make according to your logic, sinning with a single girl vastly worse than sinning with a married women.
That is the position for which I cannot fathom the logic.”IF thats the question stoping you from considering rape worse than theft. LEts come up wih a sevara.
Maybe a married person sint as bad , because her life is less destroyed, presumably her husband won’t leaver her ? while a single person will have a hard (impossible?) time getting married.
OR maybe we keep him alive so that if she so chooses she can at least marry him.
I grant none of these are particularly compelling.
But surley both of those are more logical than concluding that theft is worse?
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