Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment?

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  • #1797028
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    Were I to have no other information to go on, absolutely yes. I’d say the hitter is worse.
    Unfortunately for your side, there is plenty more information, as that is the sugya of the Gemarah

    #1797030
    klugeryid
    Participant

    As to your question how did the חכמים know עז is worse
    I think you missed my point
    They knew because their moral compass was pure.
    That’s the same reason I’ve said all along they can tell you something is an exception
    My point from there is
    Even knowing that עז is the worst, why should that NECESSITATE it having the more severe punishment?
    If they are not correlated so why does it follow
    Yet the Mishna is clear that once they knew it was worse, it automatically follows that it requires the more severe punishment. Ergo we can deduce backwards, if it has the more severe punishment it must be the worse sin
    Are there sometimes mitigating or extenuating factors that skew this rubric?
    Sure
    But we aren’t in a position to decide that because our moral compass has been compromised

    #1797066
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Even knowing that עז is the worst, why should that NECESSITATE it having the more severe punishment?
    If they are not correlated so why does it follow”

    Because GENERALLY a worse aveira has a worse punishment, but it doesnt “necessitate” it having a worse punishment. R’ Shimon may very well hold that this is yet another exception ( I glanced at the Gemara quickly it doesnt look like the Gemara there or mefarshim on th page discuss this point. What does R’ Shimon (who holds sereifa is worse) reply? )

    “Were I to have no other information to go on”
    Ah, but you do have other information to go on! – common sense. Like I described above. we dont need a source to tell us a thornbush is prickly. If I ask you whats more 1 or 2 you dont need a raayah from chazal. If I ask you whats worse hitting or chopping of a leg. you dont need o look that up. similarly if I ask you wahts worse meanes or stealing. just ask a person who has had both, you dont (or at least shouldnt) need chazal to tell you that.

    “Unfortunately for your side, there is plenty more information, as that is the sugya of the Gemarah”

    not at all. There is no gemara (that I’m aware) of that says hitting is worse.

    I’m still trying to wrap my head around this so I hope you dont mind my belaboring this point, since I find your position fascinating
    If I told you ” KY you know how I always hit people who block my driveway, well my kabalah to work on myself this year is that now on I will only chop of their legs no more hitting”

    your response would be (according to the tzad that malkos is worse punishment) “good for you thats a step in the right direction” correct?

    #1797069
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Remeber Rashi משם הפיצם how unity saves one from even ע’ז . At the dor hafloga, to punish them, the unity was first brokeb up. So how great is unity towards the good.

    #1797071
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Oh and BTW KY

    you said ” The Gemarah is unsure which is worse, malkos or mamon so I would have to (actively) plead the fifth to that question as I don’t feel qualified to take a position on something that the Gemarah is unsure of”

    Ah, but the Rambam is sure, he tells us the order of severity of punishment (pirush to Avos 2:1) (which (generally) reflects the severity of aveira.

    המדרגה הראשונה והיא הגדולה שבהם הם הדברים שחייבים עליהם סקילה. והמדרגה שלמטה הימנה מחויבי שרפה. והשלישית מחויבי הרג. והרביעית מחויבי חנק. והחמישית מחויבי כרת. והששית מחויבי מיתה בידי שמים. והשביעית מחויבי מלקות. והשמינית לאוין שאין לוקין עליהם

    #1797104
    klugeryid
    Participant

    ubiq
    i dont see mamon on that list
    does he hold its not a punishment at all?

    #1797111
    klugeryid
    Participant

    more info meaning
    maiming is hitting plus
    the wounded gets nothing if the perp gets malkos
    you cant give both
    so even though malkos is more chamur you give mamon so the victim gets something
    so no its not a smaller crime its extenuating cicumstance

    #1797142
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY
    “i dont see mamon on that list does he hold its not a punishment at all?”

    I guess not in regards to severity of aveira

    “maiming is hitting plus the wounded gets nothing if the perp gets malkos”

    It sounds like you are saying wounding is worse (but that this is an exception to the general rule).

    now at this point, collecting exceptions isnt so interesting as there are dozens. My point though is
    HOW do you know wounding someone is worse than hitting him?
    Is there a chazal that says this? If I understand you correct, WE need chazal to explicit tell us which is worse, and if they don’t tell us we determine based on severity. So assuming you feel that wounding is worse. how do you know that?

    for me no question.
    Obviously the guy who chops off legs for blocking a driveway is far far worse than a guy who hits (regardless of whether mamon is worse than hitting). Aye if malkos is worse why does the lesser act get it?
    I don’t know. Its a chiddush . But of course maiming is worse than hitting. nobody could even have a hava amina otherwise!

    See minchas chinuch 595 ונוהג איסור זה לעניין שלא להכות אחד מישראל, בכל מקום ובכל זמן, בזכרים ונקבות. אבל לעניין איסור המוסיף במלקות, אינו נוהג אותו הענין אלא בזמן ישוב הארץ, שהיה לנו בית דין הראויין להלקות. והעובר (רמב”ם שם יב) על זה והכה ישראל הכאה גדולה שיתחייב לו עליה תשלומין של פרוטה או יותר – אינו מתחייב מלקות, לפי שהוא לאו שנתן לתשלומין, וקיימא לן אין אדם לוקה ומשלם. ואם הכהו מכה קטנה שאין מתחייב עליה שוה פרוטה או יותר – חייב עליה מלקות. ואומר אני שראוי לומר דין זה חידוש הוא שחדשה התורה.

    The truth is this whole discussion doesnt really make much sense to me.
    דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד. זו היא כל התורה כולה

    who determines what is “hateful to you” ? and among various things people dont like, who determines which is worse?

    I

    #1797234
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Not sure why you are confused
    Maiming is hitting plus
    So it can’t be less “bad ” then hitting because it contains hitting.
    So it’s either equal or greater.
    I already explained
    Severity means grade of issur not how much it hurts
    That’s application

    #1797241
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    Just read the diversity of opinion on the thread regarding changing airline seats
    Which is worse?
    Sitting near a woman or making a large loud fuss?
    You have proponents of both positions here.
    Whose “common sense” are you going to use as the arbiter for all of jewery to go by?
    Do you really not see how untenable a position that is?

    #1797256
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Another question

    whats worse holding up the middle finger or the pinky?

    (I’m going to take the liberty of assuming you think holding up the middle finger is worse, please correct me if I’m wrong)

    why?
    Is there a maamar chazal that that says specifically holding up finger is a wrong thing to do?
    or, well society views it as wrong therfore it is in violation of דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד. זו היא כל התורה כולה. If you move to a society that doesnt mind that act then it is no longer wrong .

    whats worse doing the above gesture or say calling a not nice name. Well it depends on society’s view of the two

    doesn’t it?

    #1797255
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I’m confused becasue your rubric for evaluating bein adom lechaveiro aveiros isnt logical.

    and you’re dodging the question

    If I maim him without hitting him. eg I use the sam that Rashi refers to that gets rid of tzar so it is completely painless leg removal. in that case is it less bad than hitting.

    More to the point though.

    Is it wrong to hold up a finger to someone in a way that society deems disrespectful?
    do I need a explicit maamor chazal to tell me that it is wrong?

    “Severity means grade of issur not how much it hurts”

    i’m not sure wha this means. we have already established that stealing a rich person’s sheep because you are hungry and have nothing to eat is the same grade of issur as stealing a poor person’s only sheep is the same grade of issur.

    Yet obviously the latter did a far worse act and is a much bigger rasha than the former.

    #1797321
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    What’s worse? Giving the finger or burping loudly in public ? They are both uncouth boorish behaviors neither are forbidden though

    As to your painless surgery question, it still seems as if money is the worse punishment.it is given where we would give malkos plus but we can’
    So that would mathematicallay make it worse

    #1797449
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “You have proponents of both positions here.
    Whose “common sense” are you going to use as the arbiter for all of jewery to go by?
    Do you really not see how untenable a position that is?”

    Just the opposite. Your example proves it is teneble. Judaism is still going strong your Rav says better to make a fuss mine follow s halacha (I couldn’t help myself) there’s nothing untenable about that.

    if you find a more horah who says being meanes is not such a big deal. Definitely better than lying OK, he’s strange but the world doesn’t fall apart. Nothing untenable about that

    And out of curiosity, what’s worse sitting next to an erva or being meanes a penuyah who isn’t a nidah

    #1797532
    klugeryid
    Participant

    OK I have many sources for what I hold.
    What’s worse?
    Depends on tons of factors
    Starting point I think is there is no issur that I am aware of to sit near a woman (except ones wife in specific circumstances)
    After that you start to get involved in
    Enjoyment, and level of permissiblity of the woman in question.
    Way too many variables to give a clear answer
    Assuming there are no side female or relation issur going on it’s quite possible that it’s worse to fantasize which is basically the issue with sitting next to a woman than to actually do the act.
    Strange but possibly true
    Source, Gemarah יומא
    גדולה הרהורי עבירה מעבירה עצמה וסימנך שילהי דקייטא קשה מדקייטא
    Please excuse spelling and or paraphrase

    #1797593
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Yet ANOTHER exception!

    Seriously though that isnt what the Gemara means, see Rashi הרהורי עבירה – תאות נשים קשים להכחיש את בשרו יותר מגופו של מעשה:

    #1797987

    a concept started on Frankfort jewry & expanded elsewhere called Ersetzestrau

    That is is fealty to the law of Judaism as codified but not to the Medrash

    now all this is too far and I hope no one is claiming that much
    however one has to start with the base
    and the base is severity of the punishment as far as we are concerned in this world
    not in terms of some metaphysical spirituality
    the base is the severity of punishment determines

    Second:

    a positive commandment one only has to pay one-third of his wealth to fulfill
    a negative commandment must give away every drop of his possessions to avoid overriding
    Plus
    something which is obligated in death penalty or Kares
    a positive commandment generally( though there are exceptions) does not override it it while positive
    commandment do override a regular negative commandment
    there is definitely a permanent structure that is based on punishment
    We follow the severity of punishment and terms of structure a priori
    everything else is in a non-tangible sense and not really, related to and shouldn’t override our perspective
    And even in terms of all the exception stated previously

    #1798036
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Iitft
    What Language is your post formulated in?

    #1833360
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    I came across this quote this past מוצש”ק
    חובת השמירה פתיחה אות ו
    (נכתב ע”י החפץ חיים)

    ולמשל, אם יפתנו היצר מחמת כעסו על פלוני שילך ויגנהו בפני אנשים ויוציא עליו שם רע, יתבונן בנפשו אלו היה היצר מפתהו לילך לבית הזונות, האם היה שומע לו? בוודאי היה גוער בו: לך מעלי מלפתני בעון, שאהיה עבור זה מתועב בעיני ה׳. ותדע אחי, שהעון של מוציא שם רע חמור יותר, כדאיתא בערכין: “נמצא האומר בפיו חמור מן העושה מעשה”‏[7] [שאונס ומפתה צריך ליתן חמישים שקלים כסף, ומוציא שם רע צריך ליתן מאה שקלים לבד המלקות שמקבל על זה]

    How does the Chafetz Chaim know that מוציא שם רע is worse than being מאנס a woman (shockingly not agreeing with ubiq’s moral scale, )?
    By seeing what the punishment is!!
    (again arguing on ubiq )

    #1833427
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Bump

    #1833531
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “How does the Chafetz Chaim know that מוציא שם רע is worse than being מאנס a woman (shockingly not agreeing with ubiq’s moral scale, )?
    By seeing what the punishment is!!”

    Thats not an argument on ubiq, As I said from the onset that is generally how severity is determined, but as we have demonstarted there are no fewer than 25 exceptions .

    At any rate, halacha lemasseh
    A person will either be meanes someone or motzi shem ra. you would tell him better to be meanes?

    And to make it stranger: suppose a person is “spreading rumors” saying plonis is no longer a besula.

    your reaction would be “chas veshalom how can you be motzi shem ra like that”
    He replies “no no its true I was meanes her”
    while still a rasha, You are maintaining that he is now better than you first thought because he is no longer being motzei shem ra, is this correct?

    #1833625
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I replied earlier but ddint make it past the censors
    Ill split my reply and reword it:

    “How does the Chafetz Chaim know that מוציא שם רע is worse than being מאנס a woman (shockingly not agreeing with ubiq’s moral scale, )?
    By seeing what the punishment is!!
    (again arguing on ubiq )”

    thats not arguing. As I said from the get go, that is generally how severity is determined

    #1833630
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    and Just so I have your view correctly

    If Gimpel is spreading rumors about a person
    You would rightly by horrified saying “how can you say that its motzei shem ra”
    If he then says “no its not motzei shem ra I was meanes her ” Is he now less of a rasha?

    #1837641
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq I just now saw that you answered.
    Thats not an argument on ubiq, As I said from the onset that is generally how severity is determined, but as we have demonstarted there are no fewer than 25 exceptions .
    So then I’m not sure your position.
    ”we generally assume that is so unless it doesn’t agree with mypersonal moral compass? ”

    A person will either be meanes someone or motzi shem ra. you would tell him better to be meanes?

    I will tell him neither
    ר אלישיב כבר פסק ”הלעיטהו לרשע וימות ” א
    Let him do what he wants, God will deal with him. You want to know in din which is worse?
    The חפץ חיים clearly states מוציא שם רע is worse.

    You are maintaining that he is now better than you first thought because he is no longer being motzei shem ra, is this correct?
    no. אין אדם משים עצמו רשע I don’t believe he did the עבירה so it remains מוציא שם רע

    #1837729
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Ubiq I just now saw that you answered.”

    Thats ok I was worried what you would reply.
    Luckily you didn’t answer you dodged.

    I’m confused by your response though by saying he was meanes, why is that making him a rasha? Is int that BETTER than what you think of him (ie you think he was motzei shem rah, by your understanding isnt he saying I’m not THAT terrible (relatively speaking) I’m just a rapist ? (interesting kler, I dont want to get side tracked, Ill rephrase)

    At any rate thats a dodge,
    Suppose 2 eidim come in and corroborate his version? NOW is he a less of a rasha than you first thought?

    I’m fine if you don’t want to answer

    “So then I’m not sure your position. … we generally assume that is so unless it doesn’t agree with my personal moral compass? ””

    Yes I think thats fair, though I would substitute “my personal” to “our”
    We proved along time ago that the Ribono shel olam instilled a “moral compass” in each of us. Eg even if we were not metzuva in shfichas damim, we would be expected to know not to do that .
    Generally severity of an act is determined by the punishment. however as we have seen there are many exceptions.
    when a seeming exception arises we dont necessarily assume our moral compass is off. for example Molech nobody assumes that killing all children is better than kiling one. that isnt even a hava amina . why doesn’t the onesh reflect that? good question and one that absolutely deserves an answer but that killing multiple children is better than 1 is simply an impossibility. More to the point, we don’t even need to PROVE that its worse, it is obvious or God -given seichel, our instilled moral compass tells us of course killing several children is worse than one, now we have to understand why the onesh doesnt reflect that.

    2 people: Revein publicizes that Shprintza is a beula (not true he was motzei shem ra)
    shimon publicizes that Genedel is a beula (true because he was meanes her but not motzi shem ra)

    Obviosuly both are reshaim.
    Is it possible that Shimon is better than Reuvein ? Do you really have such a hava amina?

    I note your hesitation to answer this question when previously posed , and I am happy that I seem to have given you some pause.

    #1837823
    klugeryid
    Participant

    No you haven’t given me pause.
    (as an aside, For some reason this thread does not show up by me in the recently active threads. That’s why I missed it last response. Now I had to search it up to see if you responded.)
    Assuming that לשון הרע is not worse that מאנס he becomes less of an עבריין. Absolutely.
    I’m not so sure that’s true though.
    I would understand from the ח”ח/גמרא that לשה”רis also worse than being מאנס in which case he hasn’t really helped himself.
    But I have no problem to say, if your rubric is correct, then he has lowered his sin level by actually being מאנס her.
    That’s exactly what the ח”ח stated unambiguously
    It’s worse to be מוציא שם רע than to be מאנס
    Mathematically that is the same as saying it’s better to be מאנס then to be מוציא שם רע
    Why would I hesitate to say that.? I’d just be quoting the ח”ח!
    (I just think In your example I couldn’t answer that because the details didn’t add up.)

    #1837844
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “No you haven’t given me pause.”

    Im being dan lekaf zchus.

    “Assuming that לשון הרע is not worse that מאנס”

    Lashon harah dosnt have onesh of maamon
    So the hierachy would be :
    Motzei shem ra – worst
    Ones umefateh – equal
    Lashon harah

    And besides, what lashan hara, she didnt do anything wrong.

    At any rate either we are speaking different languages. or you define some words differently than standard definition
    or have some different understanding of yahudus, where not much makes sense and its all just some illogical chok unconstrained by reality But clearly we are on different wavelengths

    LEts make the situation stranger.
    If ploni says “I was neenas plonis” so if he actually did it hes not as bad than if he didnt!
    If you can even entertain such a possibility then we are definiing soemting very differently
    If you can entertain the possibility that telling people someone was

    #1837855
    klugeryid
    Participant

    I guess we are talking different languages. The Chafetz Chaim says very clearly
    It’s worse to be מוציא שם רע that a woman was מזנה then to be מאנס her.
    Yes saying Rachel was מזנה is a bigger sin then being מאנס Rachel. Yes. Yes. Yes. It’s worse. Yes. Bigger. If he is a big למדן and he feels that he wants to sin between these two and he wants to do the smaller sin he would pick being מאנס the girl.
    I don’t know how I can be more clear and unhesitating.
    I’m getting lost in your example so I didn’t give clear answers.
    Apply what I said to your example and yes. That’s what I’m saying.
    But it’s not me saying it. It’s the Chafetz Chaim quoting a gemorah.
    And it doesn’t seem to sit well with you. Hence your examples.
    Which is exactly my point. ”our ” internal moral compass is sometimes at odds with the Torah’s moral compass.

    If I gleaned anything from your example, it’s that you think it’s absurd to say the fellow downgraded his evil status by actually raping the girl.
    It’s פשוט to you that that is worse. But that is exactly what the ח”ח is coming to oppose.
    He is specifically addressing that.
    He is saying it’s simple that nobody in his right mind would go be מזנה just because he is angry at his friend.
    Yet he will say לשון הרע WHICH IS MUCH WORSE as evidenced from the fact that for being מוציא שם רע the punishment is worse then raping (end quote)
    The ח”ח equated לשה”ר ומוציא שם רע
    The ח”ח equated their worseness over אונס ומפתה
    I don’t know why you are surprised at what I am saying.
    How else can you possibly read the words of the ח”ח ??
    I’m just reading.
    I’m not at all bothered because I’ve learned long ago that my gut feelings often don’t line up with the Torah. So I suspend my own judgement quite easily.
    So to me it seems odd.
    Big deal! my puny brain obviously is missing a lot of information that the Torah has.

    Sorry if I went long and redundant. I’m trying to be very clear so you don’t say I’m avoiding answering.
    Yes! saying מוציא שם רע is worse than raping someone.

    Clear enough?

    #1837899
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Lashon harah dosnt have onesh of maamon

    It gets צרעת

    #1837921
    klugeryid
    Participant

    I realized this morning a possible misconception in what I’m saying.
    You are possibly viewing what I’m saying as follows.
    Let’s give an arbitrary severity rating to two sins, from our own minds
    So I’d say
    לשון הרע 10
    Rape 90
    Ready?
    Now I come along and tell you לשון הרע is worse than rape
    So basically I’m saying rape is maximum a 9
    I’m a sicko.

    But that’s not what I’m Saying.
    Let’s start over
    Let’s give an arbitrary severity rating to two sins, from our own minds
    So I’d say
    לשון הרע 10
    Rape 90
    Comes along to Torah and tells us, wrong!
    Rape IS a 90 but לשון הרע is at least 91!!

    #1837924
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “It gets צרעת”

    Correct.
    Which is not in the hierachy of onshim as identified by the Rambam.

    “I guess we are talking different languages.”

    “How else can you possibly read the words of the ח”ח ??”

    Its making a point. It isn’t literal. This is not uncommon when comparing aveiros or mitzvos. As you know several mitzvos are listed as being “keneged kulam” talmud torah, Tzitizis shabbos come to mind., obviously they are not all literally keenged kulam. THe Gemara Bava EMtziah says better to be thrown into a furnace than be mevayesh someone (which doesnt even have an onesh!!! I believe this was one of our exceptions) the Meiri tells us (Berachos 43b recent daf yomi) that this isnt lteral (though most Rishonim DO seem take it literally) . The Gemara BK 119a says א”ר יוחנן כל הגוזל את חבירו שוה פרוטה כאילו נוטל נשמתו ממנו Obviosuly this isn’t literal. The Gemara says being mevazeh chol hamoed is like Ovoda zarah ( I lost track of exceptions I think we are approaching 30) Would you even entertain the possibility that if a person was on his way to work on chol hamoed he’d be better off just stopping in church worshiping oso haish? I’m sure we can come up with many more such examples.

    Moreover your example Basically says what I’m saying. He takes it as a given “He is saying it’s simple that nobody in his right mind would go be מזנה just because he is angry at his friend.” Obviosuly NOBODY would think that would be the better option.

    The chofetz Chayim never even entertained what you insist to be true ” מוציא שם רע is worse than raping someone.” NOBODY would rape to get even with somebody. Unfortunate we do look at motzei shem ra as “not a big deal” So to make a point he highlights how bad it is. Of course he doesnt mean it is better to be motzei shem ra

    You must find this line ” אם יפתנו היצר מחמת כעסו על פלוני שילך ויגנהו בפני אנשים ויוציא עליו שם רע, יתבונן בנפשו אלו היה היצר מפתהו לילך לבית הזונות, האם היה שומע לו?” Very puzzling! Of course people would Be ones/Mefatah whatt’s his question People say Motzi shem ra all the time of course they would do the not as bad aveira!

    ” it’s absurd to say the fellow downgraded his evil status by actually raping the girl….”So to me it seems odd. Big deal!”. ”
    Your position isnt t “odd” it is completly illogical and nonsensical. The chofetz choyim takes it as a given that NOBODY would entertain such a possibility.

    #1837990
    klugeryid
    Participant

    I assume your post was written before my last post
    If not then I don’t understand

    You must find this line ” אם יפתנו היצר מחמת כעסו על פלוני שילך ויגנהו בפני אנשים ויוציא עליו שם רע, יתבונן בנפשו אלו היה היצר מפתהו לילך לבית הזונות, האם היה שומע לו?” Very puzzling! Of course people would Be ones/Mefatah whatt’s his question People say Motzi shem ra all the time of course they would do the not as bad aveira!

    This is addressed in my last post

    #1837991
    klugeryid
    Participant

    By the way
    Do you mind telling me how you know when I post?
    By me I have to do a search of this thread
    It’s very frustrating

    #1838026
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “I assume your post was written before my last post”
    It was .

    and I think I sort of hear what you are saying. Though, and here is the real kicker, by saying “Rape IS a 90 ”
    you are really agreeing with my point.

    Our discussion began back in July when you said: “In western society, it [rape] is just one step below murder.
    Most people I have asked this to seem to lean more to the western feelings on this topic and have a rough time accepting that the Torah doesn’t view it that way” (link below)

    you supported your claim by “And yet one only needs to pay. Whereas in American thought if there was a death penalty, they would give it”

    Which is what prompted over two dozen examples proving that severity is not solely determined by the need to pay .

    Accordign to your current framework. Lack of a ounishment, doesnt lower the severity of the averia per se, So rape whcih we gave a 90 severity to IS a 90 but lashon hara is worse fine.

    but HOW do you know rape gets such a high score of 90? THAT was our original discussion. Its not from Torah sources which barely give it an onesh, so HOW do you know its so severe (you are right it is! dont get sidetracked) is that “Western society” talking ? Or is that a inherent G-d given morality compass talking?

    “By the way
    Do you mind telling me how you know when I post?”

    It is frustrating. Over the past few weeks the home page of the coffee room changed to list forums(decaffeinated coffee, controversial topics, etc) instead of lsit of most recent discussions. Most topics currenlty active are in “decaffeinated coffee” this is in “controversial topics”

    what makes it more frustrating, is sometimes clicking coffee room goes straight to decaffeinated coffee,
    an easier way to find it, may be to tag it as “favroite” then when you click your profile it comes up in favorite tab

    A Study in Trolls: Updated

    #1838134
    klugeryid
    Participant

    Not exactly
    There is a difference between severe and severity.
    I said all along it is bad
    My point is only that things we think are not so bad are actually worse.
    Our compass is inaccurate if you will.
    In truth every sin is so calamitous, we would pass out if we really understood.
    But we don’t.
    So there is no such a thing as ”a little sin”
    In the hierarchy I personally know if left to my own devices id completely mess up the order. Because I would rate rape as from the worst sins.
    But here I see the Chafetz Chaim saying it’s not. Other sins that I’d think are not so bad are actually much worse.
    In no way does that equate with saying it’s OK to sin .
    Gotta go now
    Maybe more later

    #1838199
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I dont really understand what you are adding with your last post.

    “My point is only that things we think are not so bad are actually worse.”

    Yes absolutely! very well said. THAT is what the chafetz Chaim is telling us Lashon Hara which we are all accustomed to as the Gemara says “hakol beavak Lashan hara” is much worse than we realize. THAT is exactly what he is telling us. Not that it literally is worse than rape Obviously not that its worse to tell people someone was raped who wasnt than to actually rape her. such a contention is absurd. He is telling us that Lashon harah is worse than we realize, not that Lashon hara is worse than rape.
    Nobody would have a hava amina that to get back at someone he would commit znus (a contention that doesnt really fit your paradigm so well) so so too we should treat lashon hara.

    And obviously it isnt literal. since the motzi shem ra that gets an onesh is a very specific case that couldnt come up today. (We dont have naarah hamorasa’s walking around) Lashon hara never gets an onesh beis din (yes it gets tzaras but so does gassas ruach and wait for it …. gilui arayos which we learn from Paroh and SAra! Arachin 16a) By using the strict severity of punishment metric Ones gets the worst (would have to pay tzar and boshes) spreading rumors true or not , gets NO punishment listed in the Rambam’s hierarchy of determining severity. You might think (As we see in practice) that lashon hara/motzi shem ra is no big deal. So the chofetz chaim is using poetic license sayin g . NO it is horrible it like rape which you wouldn’t dream of doing , becasue we all know its horrible “יתבונן בנפשו אלו היה היצר מפתהו לילך לבית הזונות, האם היה שומע לו? בוודאי היה גוער בו: לך מעלי מלפתני בעון, שאהיה עבור זה מתועב בעיני ה׳.”
    Does he say the guy says “wait I shouldnt rape because i’ll owe money” no of course he doesnt.

    Another point you seem to be struggling with is that circumstances change the severity of an aveira. Not all lashon hara is the same, not all theft is the same. True Beis din treats the poor man who stole bread to feed his family the same as a rich man who stole bread out of spite., but obviously they are not the same. (as we showed from Dovid Hamelech in case you need a rayah for this obvious point,) Similarly Tazadikim are held to a higher standard eg Reuvein’s getting involved in his father’s sleeping arrangement was considered very severe, the Torah compares it to one of the gimel chamuros. For us it would barely be an aveira. what onesh is there for moving our father’s bed?

    Severity is not strictly determined based on onesh. Motivation, yetzer harah, intent, and the outcome all play a role . Yes beis din isnt equipped/empowered to take all those factors into account, but don’t worry the Ribon shel olam is.

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