Can the severity of a sin be learned from the severity of the punishment?

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  • #1797028

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    Were I to have no other information to go on, absolutely yes. I’d say the hitter is worse.
    Unfortunately for your side, there is plenty more information, as that is the sugya of the Gemarah

    #1797030

    klugeryid
    Participant

    As to your question how did the חכמים know עז is worse
    I think you missed my point
    They knew because their moral compass was pure.
    That’s the same reason I’ve said all along they can tell you something is an exception
    My point from there is
    Even knowing that עז is the worst, why should that NECESSITATE it having the more severe punishment?
    If they are not correlated so why does it follow
    Yet the Mishna is clear that once they knew it was worse, it automatically follows that it requires the more severe punishment. Ergo we can deduce backwards, if it has the more severe punishment it must be the worse sin
    Are there sometimes mitigating or extenuating factors that skew this rubric?
    Sure
    But we aren’t in a position to decide that because our moral compass has been compromised

    #1797066

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “Even knowing that עז is the worst, why should that NECESSITATE it having the more severe punishment?
    If they are not correlated so why does it follow”

    Because GENERALLY a worse aveira has a worse punishment, but it doesnt “necessitate” it having a worse punishment. R’ Shimon may very well hold that this is yet another exception ( I glanced at the Gemara quickly it doesnt look like the Gemara there or mefarshim on th page discuss this point. What does R’ Shimon (who holds sereifa is worse) reply? )

    “Were I to have no other information to go on”
    Ah, but you do have other information to go on! – common sense. Like I described above. we dont need a source to tell us a thornbush is prickly. If I ask you whats more 1 or 2 you dont need a raayah from chazal. If I ask you whats worse hitting or chopping of a leg. you dont need o look that up. similarly if I ask you wahts worse meanes or stealing. just ask a person who has had both, you dont (or at least shouldnt) need chazal to tell you that.

    “Unfortunately for your side, there is plenty more information, as that is the sugya of the Gemarah”

    not at all. There is no gemara (that I’m aware) of that says hitting is worse.

    I’m still trying to wrap my head around this so I hope you dont mind my belaboring this point, since I find your position fascinating
    If I told you ” KY you know how I always hit people who block my driveway, well my kabalah to work on myself this year is that now on I will only chop of their legs no more hitting”

    your response would be (according to the tzad that malkos is worse punishment) “good for you thats a step in the right direction” correct?

    #1797069

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Remeber Rashi משם הפיצם how unity saves one from even ע’ז . At the dor hafloga, to punish them, the unity was first brokeb up. So how great is unity towards the good.

    #1797071

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Oh and BTW KY

    you said ” The Gemarah is unsure which is worse, malkos or mamon so I would have to (actively) plead the fifth to that question as I don’t feel qualified to take a position on something that the Gemarah is unsure of”

    Ah, but the Rambam is sure, he tells us the order of severity of punishment (pirush to Avos 2:1) (which (generally) reflects the severity of aveira.

    המדרגה הראשונה והיא הגדולה שבהם הם הדברים שחייבים עליהם סקילה. והמדרגה שלמטה הימנה מחויבי שרפה. והשלישית מחויבי הרג. והרביעית מחויבי חנק. והחמישית מחויבי כרת. והששית מחויבי מיתה בידי שמים. והשביעית מחויבי מלקות. והשמינית לאוין שאין לוקין עליהם

    #1797104

    klugeryid
    Participant

    ubiq
    i dont see mamon on that list
    does he hold its not a punishment at all?

    #1797111

    klugeryid
    Participant

    more info meaning
    maiming is hitting plus
    the wounded gets nothing if the perp gets malkos
    you cant give both
    so even though malkos is more chamur you give mamon so the victim gets something
    so no its not a smaller crime its extenuating cicumstance

    #1797142

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    KY
    “i dont see mamon on that list does he hold its not a punishment at all?”

    I guess not in regards to severity of aveira

    “maiming is hitting plus the wounded gets nothing if the perp gets malkos”

    It sounds like you are saying wounding is worse (but that this is an exception to the general rule).

    now at this point, collecting exceptions isnt so interesting as there are dozens. My point though is
    HOW do you know wounding someone is worse than hitting him?
    Is there a chazal that says this? If I understand you correct, WE need chazal to explicit tell us which is worse, and if they don’t tell us we determine based on severity. So assuming you feel that wounding is worse. how do you know that?

    for me no question.
    Obviously the guy who chops off legs for blocking a driveway is far far worse than a guy who hits (regardless of whether mamon is worse than hitting). Aye if malkos is worse why does the lesser act get it?
    I don’t know. Its a chiddush . But of course maiming is worse than hitting. nobody could even have a hava amina otherwise!

    See minchas chinuch 595 ונוהג איסור זה לעניין שלא להכות אחד מישראל, בכל מקום ובכל זמן, בזכרים ונקבות. אבל לעניין איסור המוסיף במלקות, אינו נוהג אותו הענין אלא בזמן ישוב הארץ, שהיה לנו בית דין הראויין להלקות. והעובר (רמב”ם שם יב) על זה והכה ישראל הכאה גדולה שיתחייב לו עליה תשלומין של פרוטה או יותר – אינו מתחייב מלקות, לפי שהוא לאו שנתן לתשלומין, וקיימא לן אין אדם לוקה ומשלם. ואם הכהו מכה קטנה שאין מתחייב עליה שוה פרוטה או יותר – חייב עליה מלקות. ואומר אני שראוי לומר דין זה חידוש הוא שחדשה התורה.

    The truth is this whole discussion doesnt really make much sense to me.
    דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד. זו היא כל התורה כולה

    who determines what is “hateful to you” ? and among various things people dont like, who determines which is worse?

    I

    #1797234

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Not sure why you are confused
    Maiming is hitting plus
    So it can’t be less “bad ” then hitting because it contains hitting.
    So it’s either equal or greater.
    I already explained
    Severity means grade of issur not how much it hurts
    That’s application

    #1797241

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    Just read the diversity of opinion on the thread regarding changing airline seats
    Which is worse?
    Sitting near a woman or making a large loud fuss?
    You have proponents of both positions here.
    Whose “common sense” are you going to use as the arbiter for all of jewery to go by?
    Do you really not see how untenable a position that is?

    #1797256

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Another question

    whats worse holding up the middle finger or the pinky?

    (I’m going to take the liberty of assuming you think holding up the middle finger is worse, please correct me if I’m wrong)

    why?
    Is there a maamar chazal that that says specifically holding up finger is a wrong thing to do?
    or, well society views it as wrong therfore it is in violation of דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד. זו היא כל התורה כולה. If you move to a society that doesnt mind that act then it is no longer wrong .

    whats worse doing the above gesture or say calling a not nice name. Well it depends on society’s view of the two

    doesn’t it?

    #1797255

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I’m confused becasue your rubric for evaluating bein adom lechaveiro aveiros isnt logical.

    and you’re dodging the question

    If I maim him without hitting him. eg I use the sam that Rashi refers to that gets rid of tzar so it is completely painless leg removal. in that case is it less bad than hitting.

    More to the point though.

    Is it wrong to hold up a finger to someone in a way that society deems disrespectful?
    do I need a explicit maamor chazal to tell me that it is wrong?

    “Severity means grade of issur not how much it hurts”

    i’m not sure wha this means. we have already established that stealing a rich person’s sheep because you are hungry and have nothing to eat is the same grade of issur as stealing a poor person’s only sheep is the same grade of issur.

    Yet obviously the latter did a far worse act and is a much bigger rasha than the former.

    #1797321

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Ubiq
    What’s worse? Giving the finger or burping loudly in public ? They are both uncouth boorish behaviors neither are forbidden though

    As to your painless surgery question, it still seems as if money is the worse punishment.it is given where we would give malkos plus but we can’
    So that would mathematicallay make it worse

    #1797449

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “You have proponents of both positions here.
    Whose “common sense” are you going to use as the arbiter for all of jewery to go by?
    Do you really not see how untenable a position that is?”

    Just the opposite. Your example proves it is teneble. Judaism is still going strong your Rav says better to make a fuss mine follow s halacha (I couldn’t help myself) there’s nothing untenable about that.

    if you find a more horah who says being meanes is not such a big deal. Definitely better than lying OK, he’s strange but the world doesn’t fall apart. Nothing untenable about that

    And out of curiosity, what’s worse sitting next to an erva or being meanes a penuyah who isn’t a nidah

    #1797532

    klugeryid
    Participant

    OK I have many sources for what I hold.
    What’s worse?
    Depends on tons of factors
    Starting point I think is there is no issur that I am aware of to sit near a woman (except ones wife in specific circumstances)
    After that you start to get involved in
    Enjoyment, and level of permissiblity of the woman in question.
    Way too many variables to give a clear answer
    Assuming there are no side female or relation issur going on it’s quite possible that it’s worse to fantasize which is basically the issue with sitting next to a woman than to actually do the act.
    Strange but possibly true
    Source, Gemarah יומא
    גדולה הרהורי עבירה מעבירה עצמה וסימנך שילהי דקייטא קשה מדקייטא
    Please excuse spelling and or paraphrase

    #1797593

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Yet ANOTHER exception!

    Seriously though that isnt what the Gemara means, see Rashi הרהורי עבירה – תאות נשים קשים להכחיש את בשרו יותר מגופו של מעשה:

    #1797987

    a concept started on Frankfort jewry & expanded elsewhere called Ersetzestrau

    That is is fealty to the law of Judaism as codified but not to the Medrash

    now all this is too far and I hope no one is claiming that much
    however one has to start with the base
    and the base is severity of the punishment as far as we are concerned in this world
    not in terms of some metaphysical spirituality
    the base is the severity of punishment determines

    Second:

    a positive commandment one only has to pay one-third of his wealth to fulfill
    a negative commandment must give away every drop of his possessions to avoid overriding
    Plus
    something which is obligated in death penalty or Kares
    a positive commandment generally( though there are exceptions) does not override it it while positive
    commandment do override a regular negative commandment
    there is definitely a permanent structure that is based on punishment
    We follow the severity of punishment and terms of structure a priori
    everything else is in a non-tangible sense and not really, related to and shouldn’t override our perspective
    And even in terms of all the exception stated previously

    #1798036

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Iitft
    What Language is your post formulated in?

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