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Is there anything that can be done to reduce the serious problems that go on in the Monticello Wal-Mart over the summer?
I’m talking about things like
-Chillul Hashem
-underage smoking/drinking
-the guy and girl situation
-the stealing/shoplifting
That’s just to name a few. There are plenty of more.
A flat out ban on Wal-Mart is:
a) not practical, and
b) wouldn’t be kept.
Any suggestions?
What about buying items and returning them after using them for the summer?
Vehamayvin yavin…..
The problem will become far larger if gambling comes to the catskills chas v’shalom.
Gambling is already in the Catskills. The development at the old Concord will simply move it out of Monticello , along with the raceway, to the new hotel.
How is Wall-mart at fault for people doing what you say they are doing? But you are right about one thing, people will correctly ignore any attempt to ban Wal-Mart.
Heimische mentshen should stop doing those things.
The chillul hashem is great.
I once saw a Chashuve rav go shopping there with 2 of his small children.
Can someone maybe answer me and tell me why single teenaged boys and girls are still heading out to the country with such problems and why the parents and schools arent doing ANYTHING about it?! Mechanchim just because school ends in June and starts in September, doesnt mean the girls and boys are not under your achrayis July threw August!
The highschool I attended banned the girls going up to a bungalow to be a ‘mothers helper’. I think every school should make such a rule! If a girl is not in a camp with supervision, she should NOT be in the country. Not only that, they ask every girl what they plan to in the summer, so this way there on top of the girls!
EVERY SINGLE SCHOOL should ask there students BEFORE school ends what their plan on doing in the two month. IT IS 100% YOUR ACHRAYIS!
(FYI: last year there was a write up from a parent; that when your son or daughter says there going for ‘pizza’ on a motzei shabbos, GO WITH THEM! because Hashem yerachayim what goes on in the ‘pizza’ stores. However much you trust your child and your child is very responsible, dont be fooled its terrible what goes on there! and they’re kids and dont realize what they just might end up doing and getting hooked up with the wrong crowd.)
Oh and one more thing: its not just the teenagers at fault, the adults are far more!
For a married woman to be up the whole summer without her husband brings MAJOR shalom bayis problems!
This is a true story witnessed first hand:
Three years ago i attended camp in the mountains, and camp took us to an ice cream store (i think its called sprinkles, on four corners)anyway, there was a MARRIED ‘chassidish’ woman there who was ‘shmoozn’ very comftorably with a boy who was around 21-22 years old . The scene kind of didn’t sit with me to well. Anyway one of my friends came up to me and tells me she knows the guy from our community and he is NOT married, he is a young ‘shnuk’ and mind you he didnt look like he came from her kind of crowd. The guy had to leave for a few minutes and my friend and I decided were going to investigate a little and see the scoop. So we had the guts and went up to her and started asking her name, where shes from, and then I asked so wheres your husband?
She answered me ‘oh, hes in the city for the summer and comes up for shabbosim’. Oh and we asked her where her kids are and she said there in daycamp in her bungalow, and she has to get back before they come home and realize shes gone.
Our mouth dropped, this woman who was maybe 28-30 feels she can do WHATEVER she want because her husband is not around to tell her what to do!
Story doesn’t end there, the boy comes back, goes into the ice cream store, and comes out with two ice creams with colorful sprinkles on a cone, one for him and as you guessed one for her. Anyway my friend and I kept observing the scene, they were talking as if they were good old friends having a wonderful time.
My question is: HUSBANDS DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR WIVES ARE DOING THE WHOLE DAY IN THE COUNTRY?????????
lgbg,
Thank you for sharing that horror story, as painful as it must have been.
One point worth commenting on is that it makes little difference that he was unmarried. Even if he was married, the horror of such a setup would be all the same. The fact that she was married makes this such a horrific situation.
Indeed the entire situation would be unfortunate and unacceptable even if both of them were unmarried, as it would constitute a terrible breach of tzinius. All the more, of course, since she is married.
josephf
true that it makes no difference that the guy was single, but it only makes this whole situation worse. Married women are hanging out with single guys!
One more thing I wonder what goes on in the city with the men while their wives arent home. Is it the same?!
This whole situation has got to come to a STOP!
Before we belittle ourselves and overdue on how “bad” we are behaving let me say a few words.
The locals cannot stand us, PERIOD. You only have to read their comments (most of them fabricated lies) on the blogs and forums from the Herald Record and Mid Hudson News, and you’ll see for yourself.
Yes, some of our Yidden don’t behave and it’s a HUGE Chillul Hashem. However, the locals tend to magnify and exaggerate the situation 100 times over.
1- Some of them claim that the lines are terrible when the Hassids come up in the summer. I was at Wal Mart ten times during the winter months. The lines on Sunday were HORRIFIC, and there were VERY FEW yidden there.
3- A poster on one of their forums wrote that she observed a Hassid Woman eating and drinking in the store and she didn’t pay for it. What was she eating? According to the poster, DORITOS! I ask you; would a Chassidic woman eat Doritos, which is not kosher, in public???
4- The door to the Handicapped bathroom in the Monticello Wal Mart does not lock. Wait till the summer comes and they’ll blame it on us!!!! This has been the case for months!!!!
5- I myself saw a few AC’s with ripped open boxes at the Wal-Mart in Middletown. I’m sure had it been in the summer even some of our own would blame it on the Chassiddishe Jews.
6-In the parking lot of the Wal Mart in Monticello there is another exit thru the Burger King. It has a sign CLEARLY stating that it’s not an exit and for Burger King customers ONLY. I sat in my car for about 20 minutes and watched 3 cars pass thru WITHOUT buying anything at Burger King. Again, in the summer you will hear them all whining how the Hassids do whatever they want even thought they do it all year round.
7-Some posters on those blogs claim that the Kosher isles are wider, preferential treatment for the Hassids!! I kid you not. Last time I checked, the large isle in the Monticello Wal Mart near the soda’s and in back of the orange juice refrigerators is wider but the Kosher food is in a regular isle.
Bottom line;
lgbg – it’s worse by the men in the city!
btw maybe the 21 yr old guy in the story was her brother in law, or a 1st cousin (not that it would excuse flirting but it’s still different) & hey, perhaps it was her BROTHER? did u think of that one?
who cares that he didn’t look chassidish – maybe he has issues or whatever. Dan l’kaf zchus!
the fact that they did it so in the open makes me think that it’s probably
I think the bigger question is, can anything be done about people worrying about such insignificant things like the happenings at wal mart.. wal mart is a public store and if kids want to hang out and socialize so be it. it is up to the parents to monitor their children, not us. The real problem here is turning everything into a “crisis”. The “shidduch crisis”, the “tznius crisis”, and now, the “wal mart crisis”. Dont you realize that your classification of this as a major issue is what turns these kids to trouble in the first place?
willi
At first trust me, I was don lkaf zechus, however I’m sorry I didnt mention this before but the guy was from Lakewood and she was from Brazil who was living in Boro Park at the time.
And the fact they did it open does not prove they’re related!
Honestly if it you met your sister in law (who is older then you) in the ice cream store on 13th Ave. would you buy her an ice cream and eat it with her?
What happens in Walmart is an extension of what’s happening to our community. Clearly, chinuch geared for the iddis de’iddis and treating everyone else like zibburis isn’t working.
lgbg- I would definitely eat ice cream with my sis. in law.
The question is only if I’d buy an ice cream for my brother in law. 😉
haha so funny:)
whatever it is, this whole situation with girls and guys in the country and as you mentioned in the city as well has got to come to an end!
This has been going on forever and every summer it gets worse. These problems are no big secret.. Yet, although we all know about it, talk about it, and yes, even complain about it there has been no action taken to address this issue.
Other letters have talked about drinking and tznius in Brooklyn. This one talks about the same problems in the mountains.
I for one would like to see one Rav read his mispalilim the riot act. Just one who says this is wrong.
HNBNY:
your comment regarding the the comments on the blogs is true. The Journal News are just as bad.
Perhaps we need a Kol Koreh to ban visits to the mountains.
While it might be true that the hatred that the locals have for us may be unfounded alot of the time, why does that matter exzctly? We should be looking at and working on what we know IS true and take serious steps to rectify them! We all know that without the economy that the heimishe community provides to the Catskills during the summer, Sullivan County would have bankrupted long ago. We also know that they are raking in serious tax money and are able to provide real schooling to their children based on heimishe tax dollars. We also know that the taxes are too high. However, these are problems that should be dealt with in the voting booth! we should not be parading around the mountains as if we OWN the place (even though we probably do..). Let’s look at some of the problems that we KNOW that we bring up to the mountains from New York City. The driving habits are just horrible. Road signs and speed limits are totally disregarded. U turns are made across peoples private property. Go to any lake and read the brands on the wrappers and garbage that you see strewn all over. (When was the last time a Goy ate a heimishe candy??). If you decide that you don’t want your Paskesz cookies today, why leave it in the paper goods aisle in Shop Rite? Think before you do. These things are ALL a Chillul Hashem. We could and should improve. Why just talk about it? Why can’t we try this summer to give them NO REAL reasons to hate us?
mamashtakah – a Kol Koreh to ban stupid comments would be better.
I agree that this nothing new. Forty years ago , when my younger sister was in Esther Schoenfeld, she refused be seen on the streets with me. She was afraid that the secret tznius police would report her to the rosh yeshiva without knowing that I was her brother. The KGB used to send their agents to Boro Park to train
It IS true the locals don’t like us. I go to South Fallsburg 8-10 times during the winter. I have family living there. The difference is, that for 10 months of the year, we are not the majority population. For 2 months of the year, we are.
Lets call a spade a spade. When the Wal-Mart in Monticello had to send a letter to the Agudah discussing the horrible chillul hashem made in many ways over the summer months, it wasn’t because they hate us. They love every one of the millions of dollars we spend in their store, summer after summer after summer. What they DO NOT like, and rightfully so, is that we take advantage of a return policy in ways not intended. Is there a reason Wal-Mart has been reffered to as the Toy Gemach, Bike Gemach and A/C Gemach? That we take advantage of a large air conditioned store and use it as a babysitting service. I dont know what the policy is on 13th avenue or Lee avenue or on Ave J (insert your own avenue here), but if store policy is that one should refrain from riding the bicycles around the toy section, then it must be honored, even if it just for “a few minutes”. Must camps take their staff to Wal-Mart UNSERPERVISED for staff night out?
The Laytzanus and Kalush Rosh that occurs in the store is unaccaptable by ANYONES standards, certainly not ours.
. Should teenage girls be racing shopping carts up and down the aisles? (Iv’e been hit by these wagons, luckily for the girls I was not a “local”.
. Should underage boys and girls be asking people to buy beer for them? (Been asked a number of times – where is the camp supervision of these kids?)
. Is it proper to return an obviously used bicycle during the last week of August because “my son is too big for it”? The customer service lines the last week of August with customers returning things is a sight to behold. I bet no other store in america does that many returns in a month, as this WalMart does in a week.
Lets leave the store for moment and head out into the parking lot. Double parking, horn honking, blocking pedestrians and cars. It doesnt matter that “they do it too”. WE should know and act better.
Lets leave the parking lot and head out to the streets. Speeding, double parking, incessant horn honking. WE should know better. We probably DO know better, but dont act on it.
I am NOT in any way saying that WE act like this. However, even if ONE of us acts this way it is a chillul hashem and it reflects on All of us. Unfortunately more than one of us act this way, a small minority to be sure, but vocal and visible enough to have US painted with a very broad brush a certain way.
Yaasher Koach to Ohr Naavah for having the guts to say it like it is and DOING something about it. At least the girls will have a place to go Motsai Shabbos. Now we have to find something for them to do 5 more nights of the week (hopefully, they dont go far on Friday night). Perhaps the camps should rethink where they let their staff go, and when. Parents who allow their children to work in the mountains have an achraiyus to make certain they know what their children are doing after work hours while they are 125 miles away in the city. Perhaps those who employ them should be required to keep an eye on them? I know it is not realistic, but from some of the comments people made about Agriprocessors and their choice of employees, at least THEY should agree that employers be careful who they hire.
At the end of the day, each individual is responsible for their own actions and the kiddush hashem (or chas veshalom, chillul hashem) it creates.
Is it WalMarts fault? Lets not be ridiculous. Is it the fault of the “locals” who “hate” us for blowing things out of proportion? Come on, lame excuse. Besides, we SHOULD be held to a higher standard, dont we believe that WE are the AM SEGULA? Parents and camps that allow children to roam free are the true culprits. What do they expect their children to do with unfettered freedom?
There are men that go back to the city during the summer weeks and leave their wives and kids in the bungalow in the Catskills. How can we trust the men that go back to the city during the week and have the house to themselves. Who knows what exactly they are doing or what type of places they are going to.
lesschumras – Better for her to overdo tzinius than to Chas V’Shalom under do it.
Excepy that this kind of Tznius ( afraud of being seen with a brother ) is the typr they teach in Chelm
Tell my brother Adam I say hi! He lives upstate & anyone who lives there or visits there knows him. He’s a cool guy. Good Shabbos!
The problem with “overdoing” tznius–labeling certain behaviors as required when they’re not–is that doing so can deter those who would be willing to follow the halacha, but unwilling to follow chumros. Also, it can lead people to assume that other who don’t follow their chumros are wrong. This is the fundamental problem of “kol hamosif goreia”.
The mingling and other laytzanus that goes on in Wal-Mart happens everywhere else. I am not surprised by the story at Sprinkles. Women, unfortunately, are disloyal in this generation. YEs, he could have been her brother-in-law. He could have not been also.
When I walk in to Wal-Mart in Monticello for the first weekend in the summer, I hear murmurs. I feel like telling these people, “I’m not one of those!!!”
Don’t mind the fact that the frum people generally treat the cashiers like garbage, and are pushy to the fellow goyishe shoppers.
I’m sure the same thing happens in Friedmans. I don’t know where this entitlement attitude came from, but I suggest people get rid of it.
Conducting yourself as a G-d fearing yid is our obligation, it has nothing to do with the Catskills. You mean to tell me all of the behaviors that allegedly happen/are grossly over reported by the non-Jews only happen upstate? I’m in business and I’ve been screwed more by supposedly frum yidden than non-Jews.
Just to give you examples of some things that happened to my family. My mother-in-law gets pushed around in Boro-Park because she doesn’t look frum. While it’s her decision to shop in Friedman’s on her way home from work and give her business to Jews, does that make it right for a supposedly frum man to shove her out of the way without asking her politely if he can pass? Or the supposedly frum man asking her at a fruit stand on Fort Hamilton Parkway if she was the Polish Shikse that was supposed to meet him at the Park Plaza Hotel? Or maybe it’s the shopkeeper who asks his partner what to charge this shikse, not realizing my mother-in-law is fluent in Yiddish. So there are separate prices? How would we like that if Wal-Mart charged a frum tax?
Please. This all goes back to proper home training. Some love to make up things that are supposedly written in the Torah that are not. But they fail to learn that derech eretz comes beofre Torah. You can be the most learned individual in Tanach, Gemorah, Mishnah, etc. But it’s meaningless if you have no idea how to act. We have an obligation to conduct ourselves properly in this world as we prepare for Moshiach and the next world. That includes how we act with others, whether they are Jewish (regardless of their particular minhagim) or non-Jewish.
these are the supposed problems At Montcl. Wal-Mart
-Chillul Hashem
-underage smoking/drinking
-the guy and girl situation
-the stealing/shoplifting
How do you fix them?
-Chillul Hashem
Nothing you can do. This is a Hashkafah problem that starts in the home.
If your eally want to prevent a public Chilul Hashem teach your children to behave in public or lock them up once you let your “shor She Nagach out of the barn it is your responsibility.
-Underage smoking and drinking
call the police!
-the guy and girl situation
Is this a problem????
Wal-Mart is a public area guys will find girls if they want just like they will find thier alcohol or anything else they want.
It is better for them to meet in a public well lighted place where there is no yichud. Lets face it guy and girl has been going on forever it is just more public now since there are alot more Frum Yidden in The world USA and Eretz Yisroel than ever, so it is more noticeable. I say if they are going to hangout let it be in Wal-Mart rather than in private.
-the stealing/shoplifting
Nothing to do other than let the police handle it actualy this catagory and the underage drinking all falls under the Chilul Hashem catagory
HOPE THIS HELPS
What about those sales-tax free cards? Are people allowed to use them when they buy their own things?
I’m one of those American looking guys (my color scheme is not black) and thank g-d I don’t go up to the Catskills to witness this chilul hashem and more. The bottom line is the lack of Yiras Shamayim; and also how you were raised and how you raise your children.
Tzinius is not just in clothing but it’s also drawing attention to yourself in all matters. It means talking softly and not on a cell phone when on a store line or on a bus.
Yiras Shamayim doesn’t just mean having your tzitzus out and not obeying rules whether it’s taxes or double parking or geneivas das – learning gemara was not meant to help you find a clever drei with which you rationalize your illegal behavior.
I have observed that Yiras Shamayim and rudeness go hand and hand. The same people whose actions have been described in the postings above are also the people who talk in shul and chalila if someone should ask them to refrain.
So what happens when people go to the county? There is no accountability, no rav, and hefkeirus breeds hefkeirus.
I love how most of you people are always complaining how everything is a crisis. Now being upstate is a crisis as well???? and jphone you really irk me, your comments are just not that bright. Ohr nava is doing a good thing?!?!? why is it a good thing because no one sees guys and girls together?? that makes it all better?? im still a young frum guy and i know just because the teenagers arent in public anymore doesnt mean everything is better. all the girls running to kiamesha motzei shaabos is a good thing??? do you have any idea where they are going after??? what about all the girls that you arent seeing??? where are they???? house parties, cars, dark streets where no one will find them?? at least at kiamshea they were in public and people can see what they are up to, but the way the frum mindset is today is as long as its not seen or in public that makes everything so much better when in reality it has gotten worse. the things teenagers are doing today are mind blowing they even shock me, the amount of drugs these kids are on rivals anything i have seen a few years back. and then everyone wants to start complaining about the shidduch crisis, doesn’t take a genius to figure that one out. keep seperating boys and girls that will solve everything now they have no idea how to have a conversation with each other no idea what they are looking for only what their rebbeim tell them in seminary, that JOB is a dirty word, and smoking means they cant go out with a boy. all of you people spend more time griping about others instead of actually looking at yourselves and asking whos to blame. what makes you think that you are qualified to try and analyze teenagers; on top of that what makes you think these rebbeim are qualified, most of them have no idea what really goes on out there but out of sight out of mind… that makes it all better. so as more and more young kids do things that would even shock public school kids keep thinking that by hiding everything makes it better when in reality you are making it worse.
Frumteen. Ohr Nava is NOT for those who are in the dark alleys and the other places you describe. It is for the girl or boy who would not do those things unless they were placed in a situation where they were tempted to do so. The ability to bowl without that temptation is TREMENDOUS. I am the father of a teen. I allow my child to go bowling motzai shabbos this summer because the temptations while waiting for a lane are no longer there.
You missed the point entirely, but then again, most teens (or those who think them) usually do.
frumteen,
you have strong opinions about what is wrong with the system, however you have not offered your thoughts about an alternative solution. Being a teen yourself, you surely do have more insight into how most teens think, so I think it would be constructive if you could share some ideas on how to fix the problem. I would love to hear your thoughts.
i though it would be appropriate to bring this thread up bec it is almost summer
and also someone made a “funny” comment about exaggerating all the crisis w/o even realizing it(unless s/he is a navie)
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/catskills-wal-mart#post-301
CNP, very funny, the flu going around has, in fact, become a crisis.
~a~
Any improvement this year?
The checkout lines are still very long. Unless you shop at 4am, Tuesday.
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