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??coffee addict “I know Lubavitchers that disparage Rav Shach but I don’t think they should be blocked from posting if they wanted to”.
Are you saying that someone who chas v’sholom posts disparaging comments against HaRav Shach z”l should not be blocked from this forum??? Of course, such a person should be blocked and placed in cherem! Further, any Lubavitch person that disparagse him is definitely considered a rasha, probably possul l’eidus (at a chuppah for eidei kidushin), is a total shoita, and will need to stand in judgment for such behavior. The same applies for disparaging any Godol b’Yosroel. Is this a chidush or poshut to everyone?AAQ – indeed, Moshe Rabbeinu can be mochel on his own kovod, but adaraba, from there we see that Yehoshua and everyone else MUST stand up for Moshe’s kovod.
The stupidity of this thread, “Chabad shows up where the Litvish world doesn’t” is that admirers of Chabad make the claim, and admirers of the Litvish World reply, “Yes, we do show up” and we do kiruv too.
Why not flip the question around, “Litvish World shows up where Chabad doesn’t” by showing that the Litvish World makes kollelim in places all over America, something that Chabad does not do!
True, all Chabad Houses offer shiyurim at different levels from beginners to advanced, but they do not set up kollelim in rural America, to establish places where the sound of Torah is learned throughout the day.
Therefore, each contributes to klal yisroel in their own way, and no one needs one-upmanship over the other.
ujm – in fairness to (original) qwerty613/Dr Stern, he did not b”h disparage the honor of HaRav Shach z”l, but he did disparage numerous other gedolim, including the Lubavitcher Rebbuh, R’ Moshe Feinstein, Rav Avigdor Miller, the great senior Rosh Yeshivos of Slabodka Rav Hirsch and Rav Landau, R’ Malkiel Kotlker, R’ Elya Brundy etc., plus numerous mosdos haTorah, starting with Ir HaTorah “Fakewood” rachmona l’itzlan, Dirshu, Adirei Torah, Chabad/Lubavitch, Keren Olom HaTorah, Kupas Ha’Ir etc. And after being blocked, he is now back as mswaytogo!!!
God, it sounds like idol worship now qwerty.613
Moshe was the most humble of all men. Don’t think he would care?coffee, indeed, thanks! I did not have enough coffee that morning
This is my response to the unitiated, who have their opinions about Chabad Lubavitch. I grew up a Conservative Jew who barely had knowledge of Torah, Shabbat, Yiddishekeit, and Mitzvosim. I knew something’s, never had a Bat Mitzvah, did not know how to even talk to a Rabbi about my concerns. Without Chabad’s presence near our Conservative Synagogue I do not think that I would have aspired to Chuppah/Marriage and Mitzvahs, Cheseds, Tzedakah, and Shabbat Observance. One of you, participating in this forum/posting said in so many words that Chabad doesn’t punish or teach the harsh realities of a strict Torah Life. They do. And it hurt a lot. Example; My very first time meeting Chabad I was wandering around in the neighborhood just wandering. I happened to find an angular Menorah on a property a few doors down from the Conservative Synagogue I attended. I walked up to the front door at about age 15 years old, I knocked on the front door. (I was not pure, I had many crimes in Torah, but I was ignorant of that at the time. A man in a black hat answered the door. I briefly introduced myself. I asked if he could help me be Jewish. He said, in paraphrase, sorry, I can’t help you. Have a nice day. He then closed the door and I stood there in shock. I was dismissed and I did not know why. Years later I contacted this Rabbi. Evidently he did not forget me. He responded to my concerns with a letter that stated, ‘there is love in the punishment’. I was horrified at myself. Did I think that I would be accepted as the female cigarette smoking ‘hippie’ that I was back then? I was not. The punishment was swift and very very severe. I began after that time to think Chabad was all wrong in their approach with me. I now. I repeat, I now know better. They don’t just take in trash. Which is what I was at the time and Bless G-D I was too ignorant to know it at the time. I am of Levite heritage after my Mother and her Father. It took me over 30 years to let H”M in and to clean up my act! I will always from now on thank this Chabad Rabbi for rejecting me at a time when
en all I wanted was a helping hand. I needed a strict hands off attitude and he gave it to me. I was a spoiled rotten brat and needed someone to smack me in the face. I didn’t need understanding I needed severe and very strict discipline. So anyone who says that Chabad Lubavitch is wishy washy is dead wrong. The are experts in Torah Law and all it’s observances. I finally got my life on a proper Torah path. H”M reigns supreme in my life and I do not miss Shabbat Bentch Licht, I have in the past done the Mitzvah of a kazayit of Challah by burning it after a proper Bracha. I give Tzedakah regularly and daven weekly Tehillim etcetera etcetera etcetera. To claim, as one of you did that a person like myself can’t become FRUM after a desecrated life is only fooling themselves. It is possible. I am living proof.> Moshe Rabbeinu can be mochel on his own kovod, but adaraba, from there we see that Yehoshua and everyone else MUST stand up for Moshe’s kovod.
a possible interpretation. An alternative interpretation would be that Moshe corrects Yehoshua and teaches him to not be afraid of others having a different opinion and a connection to Hashem. Are there meforshim supporting any of these?
Most of you guys are missing something While CHABADs ultimate aim may be kiruv, their immediate aim is to give otherwise lost souls at least some zchusim.
Redleg, are these two separate things? Kiruv, to bring someone closer to Hashem, and giving “lost souls” some zchusim – is that not the same thing? Personally, I see it as giving myself and klal yisroel zchusim, for if the world hangs in the balance of zechusim and chovos, it is in my best interest to have someone do an extra zchus to tip the scales in my favor. I am helping myself. Same with ahavas yisroel, I love other yidden not so much for my love for them, but for the love of myself, because by loving them I am giving myself such a huge zechus. Maybe, and I don’t know, but I speculate that Chabad is doing kiruv out of self-interest, because it gives them more zchusim!
redleg > ultimate aim may be kiruv, their immediate aim is to give otherwise lost souls at least some zchusim.
ma nafka minah?!
Note that L Rebbe did not use the word “kiruv”. You are helping people to become more observant which, of course, gives them zechusim.
Who knows who started the word “kiruv”. Maybe this was required when other organizations started hiring people for these jobs and needed a job description?
gornit did not give up on being motzi shem ra on qwerty
well what do you expect he is chabadgornit: we are not supposed to do mitzvos because we get zchusim for them. We should do mitzvos because Hashem commanded us to. Even if there was no reward for it, we should be doing it – the fact that we are rewarded is just a bonus!
As for Ahavas Yisrael, again, it’s not about your love for yourself. We are commanded to love other Jews the same way we love ourselves – not because of ourselves!Yes, therealcharidy, we all agree that Chabad excels in being motzi shem ra. The whole kehilla engages in such behavior. And gornit is obviously one of them. (Sarcasm – for those with single digit or less IQ).
Therealcharaidy, we all know who you are! The whole tooth, qwerty613, kryptonite, drop dead, knicks win, good gezugt, and BMG Guy (according to jj Friedman – as your alternative universe persona). Go find a better dentist in Manhattan.
@qwerty.613 it seems like you have lots of claims about chabad, but you’re basing it on personal experience instead of sourcing it. be the talmid chacham you are.
how can you say that the lubavitcher rebbe said that every yid will be redeemed when he wrote down in his book of hayom yom, quoting his rebbe to the contrary? see here
https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/3316557/jewish/18-Sivan.htmregarding the word kiruv, the rebbe used the terms many times “to be mekarev a yid” is shagur befiv.. it’s based on the famous mishna in pirkei avos “umekarvan latorah” – he even called people in situations where they are “rochok”. he just didn’t use the term as a noun – to label them “rechokim”. distance is a technicality, not an identity.
regarding their motivation, it’s a known gemara in sanhedrin,
סנהדרין ק״ה ב:יב
אָמַר רַב יְהוּדָה אָמַר רַב: לְעוֹלָם יַעֲסוֹק אָדָם בְּתוֹרָה וּבְמִצְוָה, אֲפִילּוּ שֶׁלֹּא לִשְׁמָהּ, שֶׁמִּתּוֹךְ שֶׁלֹּא לִשְׁמָהּ בָּא לִשְׁמָהּnotice it doesn’t say “yilmod” that he should learn, rather ya’asok he should occupy himself. even if youre 100% right.. if thats where theyre holding then thats where theyre holding and theyre doing exactly what they should do, with our tefilos Hashem will surely open their hearts to sincere, selfless and correct avoda.
we can go all day, but your comments reek of ignorance, which is unfortunate because of how bright you are.
When Reb Eliyahu the Bal Shem of Worms showed up, he got all kind of reputations spread about him (check him out, he predates chasidus and was generally accepted by klal yisroel).. the Maharal of Prague went to meet him and investigate. Going to meet random affiliates who you are smarter than doesn’t do yourself justice. Go to the source, with curiosity – give yourself what you deserve, the conclusions of honest research.
gornit who disgustingly calls himself qwerty.613 should be banned for being motzi shem ra on other yidden especially people who don’t believe in his משיח שקר
when did reb qwerty disparage any group besides chabad
DaMoshe, “As for Ahavas Yisrael, again, it’s not about your love for yourself. We are commanded to love other Jews the same way we love ourselves – not because of ourselves!”
A great rosh yeshiva of yesteryear, named R Shimon Shlop z”l, wrote a world famous classic sefer cof the Yeshiva World, alled Shaarei Yosher, found in every yeshiva and Torah home.
In the hakdama (introduction) he raises the question, how can one fulfill ואהבת לרעך כמוך, since love for another can never equal one’s self love?! The Gaon explains, a person who truly loves himself, mustt surely love his wife, who is his “better half and soul mate”. She is part of him. Then his self love must include this part of his self.
The same with his children. They are part of him. His self love expands to include them.
The same with his relatives, they are part of his expanded self.
His neighbors and community are also HIS, part of his self. Therefore his self love easily expand to them too.
And so, one who really loves himself, for real, must include all off klal yisroel, because they are all “part” of him and he must love them as himself BECAUSE they are himself.
So DaMoshe, find the sefer in any real yeshiva and see for yourself that you are simply wrong when you say, “We are commanded to love other Jews the same way we love ourselves – not because of ourselves!”
You may sound right, but you are wrong.
thoughtful, some thoughtful words indeed! I just want to mention that this gemorah is not a license to do things lo lishmah. It is a complex subject that I am not ready to write about right now
regarding kiruv, I read with my own eyes a long chabad article thatt Rebbe did not use this word, and I never heard it from any of chabad rabbonim. Maybe what you are saying is right, there is a difference between an adjective and a noun.
Thoughtful Jew, you are confusing me: qwerty.613 with a dot (a talmid chochom that stands to defend Gedolei Yosroel andcresowcts all Kehillos Kodesh), with qwerty613 no dot (a lunatic dentist who is obsessed with hatred against all chareidim especially Chabad). The dot-less qwerty613 is blocked and his name and memory are erased from the klal on YWN.
DaMoshe, you have a right to your opinion which states:
“we are not supposed to do mitzvos because we get zchusim for them.” You have a right to dispute with the Rambam who rules: “A person should view himself and the entire world as half zchusim and half chovos (“mechtza al mechtza”), in the balance, and by doing one single mitzva, he tips the scale for himself and the entire world to zchusim, and with one aveira he tips the scale to chova.” As such, according to the Rambam, a person SHOULD do mitzvas for the zchusim, to tip the scale to zchusim. But, you dispute this Rambam and disagree with him. My opinion aligns with him.gornit, you’re only quoting part of what the Rambam says.
He says that we offer children the idea of schar v’onesh, in order to teach them – but this is considered doing mitzvos shelo lishma. He says that as people mature, they should do mitzvos purely because Hashem commanded us to, and that is lishma.
Yes, we should view the world as being right in the middle, because it can give us motivation – but that’s not the pure reason. It just shows us the impact our actions can have on the world.You are confusing the halochos of the Rambam. I am referring to Hilchos Teshuva chapter 3, halacha 4 wherein the Rambam EXPLICITLY states that a person must seek to do each mitva to add to his and the entire world’s zchusim, to tip the scale of zchusim in their favor granting salvation and success
לפיכך צריך כל אדם שיראה עצמו כל השנה כולה כאילו חציו זכאי וחציו חייב, וכן כל העולם חציו זכאי וחציו חייב. חטא חטא אחד, הרי הכריע עצמו והכריע את כל העולם כולו לכף חובה, וגרם לו השחתה. עשה מצוה אחת, הרי הכריע עצמו והכריע כל העולם כולו לכף זכות, וגרם להן תשועה והצלה.
But, you are welcome to disagree with the Rambam, while you stand up to advocate for the honor of therealcharidy aka chareidy613 (without a dot) aka his other username mswaytogo who disparages gedolei yisroel, including R Avigdor Miller zl, the Lubavitcher Rebbe zl, R Moshe Feinstein zl, and is מוציא שם רע on many of our living gedolei hador, R Malkiel Kotler, R Elya Brundy, R. Hirsh and R Landau of Slabodka, R Dovid Cohen of Chevron, R’ Finkel of Mir, R Dovid Hoffstedter of Dirshu etc, and mosdos haTorah as Dirshu, Adirei Torah, Keren Olom haTorah (calling it a fraud run by fraudsters!), Vaad Ha’Ir, calling Lakewood Ir Hatorah “Fakewood” etc. Shame on you for protecting his kovod while he trampled on Kovod HaTorah and Kovod Shomayim. You have your values and priorities messed up.Qwerty.613
I’m really sorry but all this is starting to sound like idolitry no offenseRebitizin……I’m sorry that’s like humiliating you for who you were. Completely rejecting your humanity. Not sure if that’s a good thing. It’s good you found the silver lining but you deserved that? Not sure
The Lubavitcher Rebbe is a Gadol his impact on Yiddishkeit is amazing.
@always_ask_questions to be honest, i don’t think Chabad cares too much about their zechusim.. they definitely do it with their emunas Tzadikim. I was just saying that even if someone could be choshed them for selfishness, it’s not like the selfishness is a bad kind of selfishness.. i mean who doesn’t want a z’chus. It’s not like a significant majority are using it to hurt people or promote their yetzer hara (of course there are always those precious few..).
regarding kiruv – if you go to any video or recording where the Lubavitcher rebbe talks about the work of shlichus, he uses the “word “Mekarev” ALL the time – I advise you to do the same thing as i advised @qwerty.613 – reading articles from Chabad.org isn’t doing yourself justice if you’re actually a talmid chacham – they really simplify the messages and make it pretty parve. You’ve got to go to the source and listen/watch and read it for yourself to have an opinion that is “ro’ui lishmah”.
htoughtfulJew, ok. My info was not from online sources, but from one of the internal magazines. FWIW, I do not recall any chabad rabbonim using this shoresh in a conversation.
Thoughtful Jew honestly your not God so you have no clue who gets what zechusim lol. Are you God to know who and how someone is judged. The fact that you think that means you think you have the ultimate say over reality or you hold the key to the truth. But gods ways is not our ways. Our thoughts are not God’s thoughts. So I think it’s a little arragent to say “they don’t conform to my lifestyle therefore they don’t have “zechusim”
Whether I agree with them or not, is not the point but they believe their way is the truth and they do so with earnestness. You think that earnestness doesn’t somehow show up when God is devining whatever “zechusim” he sees someone deserves. You think because they don’t conform to your arragent lifestyle it cannot be that they have any “zechusim”
I might not agree with everything especially the idol worship of the rebbe, but there’s a lot of positive things about chabad. Alot of love and kiruv where they really care about others. Somehow that’s not good enough because thier entire lifestyle isn’t “perfect” according to your way. Your not God. You don’t get to decide who’s way is the right way. You can disagree for yourself. But to arragently state that God doesn’t see the good they do do and judges favorably is a retarded level of arragence that in my experience and understanding makes _you_ lose points for yourself. So please. “Zechusim” like everything they do is bad. Nobody, not even you is perfect. Cuz humans are _designed_ by God to _be_ imperfect. That means no ideology including your own doesn’t have some sort of blindspots. But to write off every single thing without observing the good is such an insufferable level of arragence that I can’t imagine that leads to good behavior towards yourself and others down the road. Zechusim are not yours to give out. But gods and God looks at action and the heart of man. Including earnestness to do the right things. Not pathetic perfectionism and extremism you can’t seem to let go of.
Chabad with all its flaws at least has a more forgiving heart. You on the other hand. Your beyond redemptionTalmid915.
Perhaps you meant to post, “The Lubavitcher Rebbe was a Gadol his impact on Yiddishkeit was amazing.”
Did you not get the memo that the Rebbe, zt”l, was niftar over thirty-two years ago? Have you seen him lately?
Gadol> Lubavitcher Rebbe was
come on, stop pursuing people. It is a classic “Rashi zogt”, Rashi says. T’Ch are alive while their students are, thtey are quoted, and their halocha is followed .. This is clearly the case with L Rebbe.
So, just settle on: “L Rebbe ZTL is”
AAQ: “come on, stop pursuing people. It is a classic “Rashi zogt”, Rashi says”
Not the same at all. We all say “Rashi says”, but NO ONE says “Rashi is a great tzaddik”.
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