Chalav Yisrael and Imposing on Others

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  • #1399418

    jdb
    Participant

    Chevre, let’s take another scenario. Reuven was raised in a home where they kept kosher, but weren’t makpid on chalav yisrael. He went to the right in life, choosing a lifestyle that is quite different from his parents. They don’t approve.

    Now he is visiting his parents. His parents keep offering to out on movies for the kids, and they keep declining politely. It’s not easy. Now his mother serves the kids breakfast.

    The milk is OU D, chalav hacompanies. Should Reuven increase the machlokes in order to be a baal nefesh, or should he rely on the heter? And if his mother went out of her way about bought heimishe milk and cereal, should he push further and insist on plastic keilim?

    I have been told by many respected rabbanim and poskim not to look too closely when I’m in this situation. Hamayvin yavin.

    #1399495

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And if his mother went out of her way about bought heimishe milk and cereal, should he push further and insist on plastic keilim?

    They’re cold, so that’s unnecessary.

    #1399518

    slominer
    Participant

    DY: Thank you for the lengthy explanation.

    The Emes L’Yaakov makes a flat statement differentiating keilim without offering a rational?

    #1399623

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    jdb: If rabbonim have told you “not to look too closely when I’m in this situation” why are you even bringing up here for discussion?

    #1399625

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If you are going to eat in someone house and not pay for the food you have no right to demand anything

    If you dont trust the Kashruth , then either dont go there or offer to pay for the food.

    If the host is willing to go the extra mile you should appreciate the nice offer and accept, but you have no right to demand, If you dont like the house rules, go somewhere else

    #1399649

    GAON
    Participant

    DY,
    ” the question remains whether there is a halachic way to distinguish, aside from the practical non acceptance of the chumra in certain cases.”
    There are certainly cases were we are meikal or somach on Shitos regarding the aspect of blios when its not a Ben Yomo.
    I would venture to say that even though I’m makpid not to drink any CS, as per all poskim arguing with Rav Moshe (in addition to Rav Moshe himself ruling that you should try to get CY, see Vol 5), I would be somach on the shitos Pri Chadash (Note, which is muttar according to everyone’s understanding) and R Moshe if needed, in regards to Keilim that are not a Ben Yomo, as it is two Rabonon’s…

    I think Rav Moshe’s teshuva is speaking about a Ben Yomo …

    #1399655

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    jdb: Please explain what you mean by ” stretch the boundaries of hetariem”.

    #1399770

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    They’re cold, so that’s unnecessary.

    What if she makes them oatmeal?

    #1399986

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Here’s another scenario that rephrases the OP’s question, without the complications of CY vs CS.
    There are various kosher l’mehadrin hechsherim, different people hold by different ones. None are treif, obviously.
    Say I eat a wide range of those, we will call them Hechsher K, L, M, N and P. Hechsher K is found on many items, and is one of the few hechsherim that is accepted by everyone, but it is also more expensive than the others on things like chicken and meat. I am very price conscious when I shop, buy things when they are on sale, and when it comes to a choice between 2 brands, the price will be the most deciding factor. So I will not buy chicken with K hechsher because it is so much more money than M or N.
    If I was sending in a snack item for a kid’s school party, or preparing something for a friend’s kiddush, I would make sure to buy/use items only with Hechser K, but those are not expensive, and they are to be consumed outside of my home.
    Now Reuven is coming to my house for shabbos, and he only eats hechsher K. Do I accommodate him and buy the more expensive K chicken? Should I ask him in advance what hechsherim he eats? I know there are many people who are makpid on certain hechsherim at home, but when they go to another frum person, they don’t ask questions. But as the host, how far should I go to try to accommodate their optimal standards?

    #1400128

    Joseph
    Participant

    Winnie, does Reuven hold that the other hechsheirim that he doesn’t use have an unreliable kashrus standard or oversight?

    #1400722

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    jdb – that example makes more sense to me than the OP’s scenario. In your situation, it makes sense to at least ask the sheilah, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there are Rabbanim who would allow it (depending on the specifics of the situation).

    But in the OP’s case, I personally found it hard to even see where there is even a sheilah.

    I had been thinking of pointing out that the only cases that I would think (IMHO) that it might make sense to even ask a sheilah are: 1. If you are visiting relatives, and/or 2. If you are visiting someone out-of-town where chalav yisrael is not available.

    My impression is that in general, there are more likely to be leniencies when it comes to family than when it comes to good friends. Family relations can be much more sticky. I have heard of people being more “meikel” about tznius, for example, when it came to relatives who were visiting.

    #1400760

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I don’t really understand this thread.
    As some mentioned it obviously depends on why Reuvein avoids cs.
    If he considers it assur then obviously Shimon shouldn’t serve him issur (and of course keilim are a problem)

    If he views it as an easy way to show how frum he is. This is the best opportunity to show off! Of course he should insist Shimon spend extra to accommodate him.

    If he views it as muttar but only beshas hadchak or as a way to be closer to the Ribono shel oilam he is machmir. Why would he impose this on someone else? And at the Same time why wouldn’t Shimon make an extra effort to accommodate his friends genuinely held chumra. They should be fighting with Shimon insisting on only serving cy and Reuvein insisting it isn’t necessary.

    Maybe that is what the op meant

    #1400746

    Joseph
    Participant

    Lilmod, what kind of kula on tznius are you referring to?

    #1400806

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    allowing relatives in your home who are not dressed completely tzniusly.

    #1401753

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Ubiquitin – I agree with almost everything you wrote (except for the fact that if Shimon insists on serving c”y, I don’t think Reuven should argue with him, although perhaps he can offer to provide the c”y).

    When I was a kid, we had a frequent Shabbos guest who only ate Yashan (back in the days when that was practically unheard-of). So he used to bring his own challah, and it wasn’t a big deal. He never made us feel like we were less Frum than him because we weren’t makpid on Yashan.

    What’s interesting is that many years later, I happened to ask him why he’s makpid on Yashan, and he responded, ”because chadash is an issur d’oraisa”. (Note: I was actually in the middle of eating non-Yashan when he said this!).

    Which just makes it more impressive that he didn’t have a problem eating at our house and didn’t make a big deal about the fact that he was makpid on Yashan and we’re not.

    #1401762

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    WTP: My personal opinion is that when you have a guest, you should make sure to only have the hechsheirim that they use. Especially, if it’s known that most people in their circles don’t eat a particular hechsher.

    In terms of what a guest should do, that is more complicated. I still haven’t quite figured out the answer to that myself, and as a frequent guest, it really matters.

    #1401894

    yerushalmi in exile
    Participant

    may i add some more place to be machmir in this subject. most of us will remember the “hole in the cow stomach” tumult. it was allowed by most kashrus organizations, but one posek did not allow and since his CY company was going to be machmir, all others followed, so as not to be of an inferior kashrus standard and lose the market. When you use Chalav Stam (as it should be called) you automatically enter into the safek of Chalav Treifa. just food for the thought. 🙂

    #1401918

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Yerushalmi –
    I asked Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky specifically about whether one who is not makpid on Chalav Yisrael should reconsider because of the stomach puncture issue, and he said no.

    #1401936

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Yerushalmi

    So even most poskim who require CY still hold that the punctured stomachs arent an issue?

    #1401956

    isaacbalbin
    Participant

    Can we get some terminology correct? There is NO posek who permits Chalav Stam. Chalav Mehadrin is when it is supervised as per Shulchan Aruch and its Chalav Yisrael. Chalav HaCompanies must ALSO be Chalav Yisroel according to different principles of hashgocha, like the Chazon Ish. It’s laaz to imply people have Chalav Stam meaning zero acceptable hechsher from any Rav. That’s a din in Shulchan Aruch that NOBODY argues with.

    #1401972

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Isacbalbin
    ” There is NO posek who permits Chalav Stam”
    you are a bit mixed up
    Incorrect. R’ Moshe does. He calls it Chalav hacomponies it is what the rest of us call chalav stam, and he says it is muttar (ie halachicly chalav yisroel)

    #1401989

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The Emes L’Yaakov makes a flat statement differentiating keilim without offering a rational?

    No, he compares it to the cheilev which is subject to a machlokes rishonim and in certain places, they didn’t eat it but weren’t makpid on keilim.

    #1401990

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There are certainly cases were we are meikal or somach on Shitos regarding the aspect of blios when its not a Ben Yomo.

    There are also cases we’re not (l’chatchilah) and cases where it is ben yomo.

    I would be somach on the shitos Pri Chadash (Note, which is muttar according to everyone’s understanding)

    No, we don’t pasken like the Pri Chodosh, we pasken like the Chasam Sofer.

    #1401991

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What if she makes them oatmeal?

    Then the discussion of being makpid on keilim becomes relevant.

    #1402169

    blubluh
    Participant

    Sorry if this sounds overly simplistic regarding the question posed originally, but I think it’s simpler to answer by treating the issue of C”Y as one would food allergies. Hence, it’s incumbent on both the host and the guest to discuss the issue and come up with a plan for the visit that doesn’t overly impose on either the host nor the guest.

    To some degree it’s less an issue of kashrus than of mẹnschlichkeit.

    #1402217

    Joseph
    Participant

    What if the host uses produce that utilized heter mechira whereas the guest doesn’t hold of heter mechira?

    #1402221

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    oh joseph, no two such people would ever be friends!!

    #1403837

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    SYAG – sure they would! He has to be mekarev him 🙂

    jewish community

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