Chinuch in public-What Do You Think?

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  • #597390

    Chayala
    Member

    Many times when I’m in a store(toys,food,cloths ect…)I see parents yelling/potching their kids because they are acting up.Many kids start acting crazy in stores(mine too)but is the store the correct place to punish your kid? Many times I think the parents are wrong-why can’t they just wait until they get to the car?-what does the CR think?(please dont say not to bring your kids with you cause many times thats not an option)

    #891831

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    It really depends. Sometimes you have to have the punishment immediately follow the misdeed in order for the child to make the connection between the two. Other times, you may be correct and it may be better to wait.

    The Wolf

    #891832

    Pac-Man
    Member

    I don’t see why the store is less appropriate than the car.

    #891833

    If the child is causing a problem for the owners of the premises or other customers, then it is your responsibility to get him to stop IMMEDIATELY whether or not you haul him off the premises. Best probably to get him out of there because you create more commotion by potching him on premises.

    #891834

    Also, sadly, in today’s crazy day and age, all you need is one yente to report you for potching a kid in public and you will have the full force of the law come down on you. Best not to risk it unless you’re in a frum area, in a frum store or restaurant where you know no one will “moser” you for doing something totally legal and normal.

    #891835

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Why has this become a discussion on hitting? Chinuch involves a lot more than hitting your kids.

    A parent is obligated to be michanech their child, even in public.

    Speaking of chinuch in public…..

    A woman once apologized to me for “ruining the chinuch I was giving my children” (her words). I was waiting at a red light and explaining to my kids that we should wait until the light turns green. This woman saw no cars coming and crossed on the red. My kids said nothing about it to me (although I was thinking of an answer). When we got to the other side on the green, the woman waited for us an apologized.

    #891836

    Chayala
    Member

    Pac-man:the car will not make a big commotion. Btw 600kil-you are correct so many people are yentas! I can tot. see a person moser on another for potching their kid!!-what a crazy world we live in:)

    #891837

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “I see parents yelling/potching their kids because they are acting up”

    That was me until I started taking a parenting class….sometimes the parent with the yelling causes a greater commotion than the kids (and they usually don’t accomplish anything either).

    #891838

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “I see parents yelling/potching their kids because they are acting up”

    That was me until I started taking a parenting class….sometimes the parent with the yelling causes a greater commotion than the kids (and they usually don’t accomplish anything either).

    #891839

    Chayala
    Member

    Potching when done at the correct time is part of chinuch. Many people today are against it-but at times its just got to be done(when you have no more options left).

    #891840

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    A Potch has nothing to do with hurt. It is a physical message. The message goes over well enough when it is a simple tap on the hand. Most of the effect is the threat and lead up. That can be applied to other things as well. You can threaten them that if they continue to do whatever then you’ll actually be upset.

    A brother of mine, who raised his whole family to love each other, had to once admonish his daughter. All he said was that he was surprised she behaived that way and she cried bitterly. The extremes are what you make them to be.

    Yes you, obviously.

    #891841

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I’m not going to get into potching because I know there’s a lot of arguments on both sides of the fence. But I will say that I’ve always felt that yelling at a kid is *always* counter-productive. I remember that on those rare occasions that my kids worked me up to the point of yelling (it takes a *lot* to get me to that point — I can be *very* patient), I always chose to say nothing instead until I managed to calm down to the point of talking sternly instead of yelling.

    The Wolf

    #891842

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If you are disciplining in public, it may be because they are embarrassing you.

    If that is the case, then you are not allowed to do it.

    #891843

    yeshivabochur123
    Participant

    It is definatley appropriate to potch at certain times but admonishment of children should not be done in public. This is embarrasing for the child. Best to wait until alone and then punish as neccesary.

    #891844

    Chayala
    Member

    Haleivi-ofcourse a potch has what to do with hurting!If your 2yr old son runs into the road and you just tap him he will not get that he did anything wrong-a potch means a potch.

    #891845

    real-brisker
    Member

    Wolf – Well said.

    #891846

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    BS”D:

    Agree with Kilo 1000%.

    I have discussed this with my children when they were growing up. After hearing the Middos Machine song about going to a store, and the children tantruming until they get what they want, I asked them what do you think I would do if they acted up like that?

    And then I told them. I would physically pick the child up, and remove them from the store (of course, we are not talking about doing so to teens (who don’t act like that anyway)). And I had to do it, once or twice. It is not right to the storeownwer that you are causing a situation in his store where people want to leave. I would even call it Karov to Gezel.

    #891847

    mamashtakah
    Member

    Sounds like a chinuch crisis to me!

    #891848

    With supermarkets opened till late hours, try to do your shopping without the children. Obviously, we don’t know what mood parent was when in the store. Maybe the parent had a bad day and was less tolerant of the child and took our their frustration on the child and now realizing what they did are feeling a little guilty and venting in the CF !?!?!?!?!?!

    I did realize that the person opeing is writing in second person form but perhaps they are really writing about themselves and know they need some help!

    #891849

    EzratHashem
    Member

    Bothers me more that parents bribe the kids with prizes for acting appropriately in a store, soooo, the kids learn they are not expected to act appropriately unless some reward is being offered.

    #891850

    Chayala
    Member

    EzratHashem-well said.

    #891851

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I admit their have been many times when I wanted nothing more than to give a good “potch” to parents who berate, and totally emsculate,their in public.

    #891852

    s2021
    Member

    Ppl dont flatter urselves by calling yelling/potching “chinuch”

    Yelling is never chinuch.

    PotchING is never chinuch

    #891853

    oomis
    Participant

    My son acted out at age 6 in a store, after I had filled a HUGE shopping cart with groceries. I apologized to the checkout person and without rancor took him out of the cart and went home without buying a thing. I told him that until he could control his behavior, he could not go shopping with me again and we would try at some future date to see if he had better self-control, because his middos were more important to me than the groceries. As I was walking out with him, the lady behind me yelled, Congratulations, that took guts.”

    #891854

    apushatayid, if you are in the brooklyn area, could you please let me know where this parenting class is given. I really need it and it would be such a chessed.

    Or if anyone knows of any parenting class in the Brooklyn area. We are “yeshivish” if that makes any difference… and now going through the “terrific twos” I realize that it is all part of normal life, but knowing how to deal would help tremendously, especially when we were not raised frum. (We are talking to daas Torah already…but i think could still use constant guidance in the context of a class)

    #891855

    KeenObserver
    Member

    @s2021: With all due respect, the vast majority of Jewish sources show that “potching”, reasonably and properly used, is very much a part of chinuch, traditionally. For some recent relatively strong views which might make you uncomfortable, I would refer you to Rav Dessler on the subject.

    I am aware that some contemporary rabbonim frown on it, but others certainly don’t, and those that disapprove generally say that it is because things have changed in this day and age and a different approach is needed, not the potching is an inherently bad chinuch tool. I certainly understand that some families follow that, but it is simply incorrect to flatly state that “potching is never chinuch.”

    #891856

    ashmorris613
    Participant

    To the person who said that potching and yelling are never chinuch: common sense and halacha disagree with you. If a child is doing something dangerous, yelling may in fact be proper so that the child is startled enough to immediately listen. Yelling doesn’t work when the parent does it all the time. I quote Halichos Bas Yisroel. “A mother must be prepared to reprimand her children strongly to guide them along the proper path so that they will refrain from wrongdoing. Occasionally it may be neccesary to use physical punishment. It is considered cruel to act leniently at such times.” Also, usually young children have to be reprimanded on the spot. They quickly forget and if you wait until you are out of the store, they’ve forgotten about what they’ve done, so it has no impact on them. Older children will be embarrassed if yelled at in public, so just don’t yell unless someone’s in danger. A soft, yet stern voice can do just as much as yelling. every parent needs a tone of voice that says “I mean business”.

    #891857

    Vanilla
    Member

    Potching is only ok in case of danger- running in street, fire etc. There are B”H beautiful parenting techniques available today we do not need to get down to the child’s level by yelling and hitting and having an emotional reaction to their behavior.

    Please remember that children own their bodies and we are sending the wrong message when potching

    Yidishemishpacha: Dina Friedman from EY gives the most amazing parenting classes by phone. She starts again after the summer. Look out for her ads then, good luck!

    #891859

    emunahdoj
    Member

    http://www.aish.com/f/p/48916177.html

    Potching is never ok

    Read Planting and Building by Rav Wolbe

    #891860

    Naftush
    Member

    I side with Chayala and Vanilla. In 1987 I had the occasion to study the issue for a sefer I was translating, and even back then, before a potch would bring the law down on you, the author was super-careful in dealing with sources that appeared to approve of corporal punishment. When I had really little kids, I was always ready to leave the store (with an apology to those present) in the event of a tantrum, clutching the kids firmly but not punitively so they’d know that they were being removed. Soon enough they figured out why and life got easier from then on.

    #891861

    avhaben
    Participant

    The Torah itself says to hit and Shulchan Aruch paskens to.

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