Cholov Akum

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  • #772530

    moish01
    Member

    actually, butter is the least of it. as far as i know, you can’t make butter from any milk other than a cow’s. there are people who are makpid on cholov yisroel, but do eat foods containing butter that’s cholov stam.

    #772532

    jphone
    Member

    Re: Camels milk..

    I was making a joke that had nothing to do with the 4 legged animals in the region. Only the 2 legged kind.

    #772533

    Chuck Schwab
    Participant

    Any difference between Cholov Akum and Cholov Stam? (What is sometimes called “Cholov Stam” is made by an akum.)

    #772534

    Bogen
    Participant

    Chuck, I recall I started hearing people refer to Cholov Akum as Cholov Stam when that class of food started having a negative connotation and the akumites needed a new feel-good term for it

    Kinda like “African-American” or “disadvantaged.” 🙂

    #772535

    oomis
    Participant

    If a camel’s milk is sold in the USA at any time, the bottles will have to bear that label. It cannot be sold as USDA certified milk, by law.

    #772536

    jphone
    Member

    Most Chalav Yisroel products are also made by an Akum 🙂

    The Rav Hamachshir is probably the only Akum not involved in the entire chalav yisroel process, well him and the cows. Heimishe yidden are not, for the most part, manning the milkers, they supervise the milking machines. They do not operate the bottling plant, they supervise it.

    #772537

    Jothar
    Member

    Dairy farms contain specially bred cows designed to be milk machines. camels have not been bred for milk production. As such, Camel’s milk would be very expensive, and not worth cutting cow’s milk with.

    #772538

    anon for this
    Participant

    Jothar,

    That’s the point I was trying to make also in my post about substituting traif milk for kosher. Of course any time the kosher version of a food is much more expensive than the traif version there will unfortunately be a great incentive for people to cheat by substituting traif for kosher. But generally this incentive does not exist with respect to cholov stam.

    #772539

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    If organic Chalav Yisrael milk was readily available (and not much more expensive than its chalav stam counterpart), I would very much consider switching over.

    #772540

    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    Be careful with organic; the definition is so loose that who knows what you are getting. There have been several investigations into what organic really means and none of them are too supportive of the organic food industry.

    Besides, isn’t it the law that all milk sold in the US or at least in NY must be fortified with Vitamin D? Is the source of the vitamin D also organic? There may be a standard vitamin D solution that is used which would then negate the whole organic claim.

    #772541

    Joseph
    Participant

    SJS – why not go to the extra expense for the mitzvah of maintaining Cholov Yisroel? It would be a great zchus.

    #772542

    oomis
    Participant

    Cholov Yisroel generally is not only expensive because it costs more than Ch”S, it costs more in the long run, because it spoils faster. I bought only CY for many years, sicne Goldman Farms busted the milk cartel and brought prices down substantially. I wanted to be makir tov to them and support them. Then I found out that the milk was not keeping well, when I bought certain other brands of CY, and that the CY company also sold a brand of milk as CH”S, SAME company – two different brand names of milk. That bothered me enough to change my opinion.

    #772543

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Be careful with organic; the definition is so loose that who knows what you are getting. There have been several investigations into what organic really means and none of them are too supportive of the organic food industry.

    Yes, I know. They are working on reforms for organic and hopefully some will be instituted soon.

    SJS – why not go to the extra expense for the mitzvah of maintaining Cholov Yisroel? It would be a great zchus.

    Joseph, its not the extra expense – organic milk is the same (or more expensive) than chalav yisrael. However, the health benefits of organic milk outweigh chalav yisrael (organic milk has been shown to have better sources of vitamins, they keep cows w/antibiotics in their systems out of the herd for 1 year…there are many benefits to organic). So, for my son who just switched to milk, we are doing organic. Does that mean he will never have regular milk? No. But I prefer to give him organic as long as possible.

    Organic milk also lasts much longer than convetional milk because of a different processing system that they use (higher heat, shorter duration). Milk can last 1 month!

    Also, some chalav yisrael products are inferior to their chalav stam counterparts – I assume you have never tasted stoneyfield farm yogurt, but that yogurt tastes like food, rather than garbage like other yogurts (chalav yisrael or not). I cant stomach the stuff. Friendship and Breakstone cottage cheese are vastly superior to non name brand counterparts. And don’t get me started on chocolate or ice cream!

    Seriously though, when I lived in Brooklyn we ate mostly chalav yisrael because it was so easily available and virtually the same price (expensive, as everything else is there). I can find chalav yisrael where I live, but its a little out of the way. Given the option for the same quality product, I generally choose chalav yisrael, but I am not married to it.

    I don’t have trouble taking on more stringencies, but this is one that I will hold off on.

    #772544

    lesschumras
    Participant

    “SJS – why not go to the extra expense for the mitzvah of maintaining Cholov Yisroel? It would be a great zchus”

    Once again, it is a CHUMRA, not a mitzvah. In Europe, it was a necessity because you didn’t know how it was made. Government regulation in the US makes it a chumrah, not a mitzvah.

    #772545

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    lesschumras:

    Not to argue, (it is semantical), but Chalav Stam is a Kulah (that it’s not Chalov Akum), Chalov Yisroel is not a chumra.

    #772546

    oomis
    Participant

    Why do we need to discuss this at all? People who want to drink only CY will do so. People who want to drink CS will do so. I have an acquaintance who drinks CY and considers herself to be a CY Jew, but eats milchig items that are clearly not CY, though they are under a hechsher (like Entenmanns products). Go figure…

    In any case, neither side will convince the other, nor should we continue to try. This is not a case of hocheyach tochiach es amisecha.

    #772547

    moish01
    Member

    I have an acquaintance who drinks CY and considers herself to be a CY Jew

    oomis, what in the world is a “Cholov Yisroel Jew??” 😉

    #772548

    ujm
    Participant

    gaw, stop cheppening with lesschumras. Anything he doesn’t like or want to do is hence a chumra.

    oomis, it is a good and appropriate thing to encourage people not to use Kulahs, where unnecessary.

    #772549

    oomis
    Participant

    “oomis, what in the world is a “Cholov Yisroel Jew??” 😉

    It means, Moish, that this person is under the impression that she can be considered a Jew who only uses cholov Yisroel, because the MILK she drinks is CY. But she eats other stuff that is baked or mixed with non-CY. It’s kind of like the person who makes a big deal out of not cutting her son’s hair until he has his upsherin, but trims his bangs, so it doesn’t get in his eyes, as sson as it gets too long. Once it’s been cut, it’s cut. If you eat Entenmanns cake, you do not keep CY, no matter HOW much CY milk you drink.

    “oomis, it is a good and appropriate thing to encourage people not to use Kulahs, where unnecessary.”

    UJM – It is also good not to tell people something is assur when there is a reliable kulah for it. Why do you think that people should not be encouraged to use kulahs? A kulah does not mean it’s only “a little muttar.” It means it is not assur, and there is an opinion from rabbonim that supports that. Life does not have to be about chumrahs. Kulahs are also valid, if a reliable rov issues them. I encourage people to ask their rov when they have a shailah, and to follow his p’sak. If the p’sak is l’kulah, it is not my business to second-guess the rov. C”S is not an unnecessary kulah. The milk is cheaper, tastes better, and lasts longer before spoiling. That is an important consideration, absent any reason to suspect that the C”S is tainted with tarfus or tumah.

    #772550

    moish01
    Member

    oomis, lighten up a little 😉 i was only kidding – i know what you meant. it just sounded really funny the way you phrased it so i had to repeat it.

    #772551

    aryehm
    Participant

    I’m going to throw in my two cents even what I have to say is not news to anyone.

    Reb Moshe z”l used three Teshuvos to make the point that “Company Milk” should not be considered “Cholov Stam”. The facts speak for themselves.

    The Litvishe Velt never considered milk powder or cheese to require Cholov Yisrael. Thus, all baked goods made with powdered milk are still within Cholov Yisrael no matter what their source it. Of course, Lubavitch and Hungarians required even these to be Cholov Yisrael. Thus, if a Yeshiva Bochur eats a cake that is made with powdered milk or freeze-dried whey, he is still within the Cholov Yisrael definition.

    Reb Moshe’s own wife ate food that was made with non-cholov Yisrael. If he were to feel that strongly about Cholov Yisrael, he might have told her not to eat these. And I was there, I saw them in the fridge.

    Not eating Pas Paltar is a chumra. It was a chumra in the days of the Mishnah. I am often amazed when people consider the eating of pas paltar a kula. It’s fine to be machmir but you should know that you are keeping a chumra rather than consider someone else to be very mekil.

    B”H I live in Brooklyn. Most of my family lives in Torah communities. It is easy for me to be makpid when it comes to chalav yisrael, pas palter, and chodosh (the only of the three that could be d’oraisa). However, somem of us must travel to places that are not Torah communities (and I am not talking about taking vacations) and must rely on lenient opinions, kulas, and heterim. Some people may be BTing in places were chalav yisrael is not availalbe or may not be the best choice because it is usually sour by the time you get it home. Some may rely on pas paltar because there is no frum bakery in town. Let us understand that chumras are beautiful, but there are times when making a chumra into a sine qua non results are not what we want.

    #772552

    Feif Un
    Participant

    oomis, Entenmann’s stuff is made with powdered milk, which doesn’t have any issues with cholov stam. I was told by R’ Scheinerman, the head of Kehilla Kashrus, that Entenmann’s are not an issue. His exact words were, “I’d eat it myself if it wasn’t so fattening.” He explained to me that powdered milk doesn’t need to be cholov Yisrael.

    #772553

    sane
    Member

    Can someone explain to me why CY milk never reaches anywhere near the expiration printed whereas the Cholov Akum does? We have thrown out gallons of CY milk. it simply does not last. What are they doing wrong?

    #772554

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    sane:

    You are buying it from Jewish stores, where they don’t do a good job storing it! 🙂

    By me, I only have a problem in the heat of the summer, and then nothing works for anything.

    #772555

    feivel
    Participant

    “powdered milk doesn’t need to be cholov Yisrael.”

    some hold it does, some hold it doesnt.

    #772556

    aryehm
    Participant

    To Feivel – is not a question of some hold one way and some hold the other way. The Litvish (Yeshivish) community is lenient. The Hungarians and Lubavitch are strict. Only when it comes to others, such as the Polish Chassidim some do, some don’t.

    America and Israel have each become a Bavel with new minhagim and chumras in both. It is very important to understand what is a chumra and a hiddur versus what is required so that consider others to be erring.

    When I travel out of the NY area, I see how many BTs try hard to keep Mitzvos properly. They have it much harder than we do. Let us not throw another chumra at them without telling them that it is a chumra.

    btw: Entenmanns (sp?) is very salty. We eat too much salt as it is and therefore we should all avoid it.

    #772557

    oomis
    Participant

    oomis, lighten up a little 😉 i was only kidding – i know what you meant. it just sounded really funny the way you phrased it so i had to repeat it.

    Hey, Moish, I KNEW that – this is the pity of typing a post rather than speaking to someone. You cannot see the (wink, wink) sarcasm behind the words. I probably should have added a 😛 or @@ or something. You’re too smart not to understand what I said, so don’t think for one second that I don’t know that! I couldn’t think of another way to say “a Jew who only uses Cholov Yisroel.” CY Jew sounded pretty good to me.

    #772558

    moish01
    Member

    wow talk about miscommunication! (WHY is that underlined?? it’s a word!)

    #772559

    oomis
    Participant

    Go know….

    #772560

    oomis
    Participant

    Must be all that cholov stam we’ve been drinking… It prevents the proper development of a Yiddishe kup.

    #772561

    moish01
    Member

    cholov stam? me?? no way!

    and what’s wrong with my kup??

    😉

    #772562

    Jothar
    Member

    The reason why powdered milk doesn’t need to be chalav yisroel is that it’s presumed that only kosher milk can be turned into powder.

    The trick with all chumros is to realize what’s chumra and what’s halacha. Adam told chavah not to even touch the tree, but never mentioned that it was a chumra. The nachash pushed her against the tree, she realized nothing happened, and the rest is history. (Rashi bereishis 3:3 for those who like sources)

    #772563

    kashrusman
    Member

    To be clear… just because it says something in a teshuvah from Rav Moshe does not always mean that was the final word. Rav Moshe felt that due to the gov. supervision there was no problem whatsoever with standard American milk. The reason that the teshuvos state the facts the way they do is because Rav Moshe did not want to eradicate the idea of Cholov Yisroel in America. It is for that reason that he answer the shayla of a school using cholov stam the way he did.

    As far as why cholov yisroel spoils faster the answer is simple. The cholov yisroel dairy’s are much more cost conscious that the major cholov stam dairy’s. Because of this they tend to have older trucks and less efficient refrigeration as well as more delivery’s by the same truck in one day. This means that your milk is sitting in a non ideal truck for longer and is sometimes (especially problematic in the summer) sitting outside for some time before the store opens.

    #772564

    notpashut
    Member

    jothar,

    It wasn’t a chumra, it simply wasn’t true.

    #772565

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    notpashut, unfortunately, that happens nowadays too sometimes.

    #772566

    Joseph
    Participant

    SJS, you didn’t understand notpashut’s point.

    #772567

    cherrybim
    Participant

    I think Rav Moshe approves of timers when used for electric lights but not for other purposes.

    Also, the “Yisroel” in “Chalav Yisroel” is a camera focused on the cow(s)while the Yid sits at home watching the milking. So why the exorbitant prices?

    #772568

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Joseph, I did understand his point. I wasnt saying chalav stam is a chumra at all (I recognize that I am following a kula), just reiterating that making up halacha happens today too.

    #772569

    Personally, I don’t think I can ever become chalav yisrael. Too hard.

    #772570

    Joseph
    Participant

    syrian, which Rav in the Sephardic community ever gave a heter to eat cholov stam?

    #772571

    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    Syrian, you get used to it and you end up not missing whatever you used to eat. Ice cream was the hardest for me to give up. I used to make myself fleishig all day so I would not be tempted to eat Haagen-Dasz when I switched to CY. Now I don’t care to eat dairy ice cream anymore; the only time I do is Shavuos.

    Unless something has changed, there is excellent CY cheese (mozzarella, string cheeze etc) under the JSOR. I used to go to the Syrian shops in Brooklyn just for that – it is hand made and natural.

    #772574

    mazal77
    Participant

    I gave up Chalav stam a few years back. Don’t miss it all. Living in Brooklyn, we have such an abudance and variety available in CY products, that for myself, I found that I didn’t have to stay chalav stam and I was looking to grow. The CY chocolates are pretty good. I have found substitutes for my favorite chocolate bars. Encore is very much like Twix. Kif Kaf is like Kit Kat. So trust me, I don’t feel like I am missing out on Chalav Stam products. Living out of the New York/New Jersey area might be very challanging though.

    #772576

    oomis
    Participant

    I learn something new every day. I had no idea powdered milk does not have to be CY.

    Thank you for the information.

    #772577

    Joseph
    Participant

    oomis: You don’t keep CY (per what you’ve previously stated.) So what is your point?

    Additionally, it is a machlokes if powdered milk requires it or not.

    #772578

    Ok I guess my post wasn’t approved but joseph: don’t start with me.

    Itzik: nope its too hard. The milk and cheeses aren’t the problem, its the snacks cookies chocolates ect

    #772579

    Mazal: yeah its rabbi farhis syrian cheese its the best!

    #772580

    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    Syrian, the CY chocolate out there is far better than the CS (and between where you are and Lakewood you can get it on sale for the same price at times, especially now around Purim). The CY is real Swiss chocolate; the CS is full of all kinds of chemicals. Some of the rest of the stuff you mention, if you mean well known brands of single serving cakes and baked snacks, is best avoided for health reasons whether it is CY or CS.

    #772581

    Itzik I have to disagree bc I do not like cy choc at all!!! The only one that I can handle is milk munch that’s it. I LOVE hersheys!!! U can’t get reses or butterfinger in cy!! And I hate to admitt but I don’t usually care what’s healthy or not….I just don’t eat TOO much of it but I still eat it

    #772582

    And its deff not the price that matters to me its the taste

    #772583

    Itzik_s
    Member

    BS”D

    Syrian, they don’t sell the Schmerling and Camille Bloch chocolate where you are? I can’t stomach any of the snack type chocolates and hope no one wastes any on me for Purim because I don’t pass on sholoch mones LOL :). Hershey’s is very heavily processed low quality chocolate and if you can get hold of the real thing (Swiss CY or maybe Vered HaGalil from EY is still good) you’ll never go back.

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