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IS:
From the Ra”v on the mishnah in megillah 4:8 it sees that what the mishnah means is that it was the derech haminim to be makpid to only daven for the amud in non-colored clothing. Not that it is the derech haminim to dress in white altogether.
And since we say “eilu v’eilu…” they’re all correct. 🙂
Pretty funny. Much better answer than I thought I’d get.
“Rashi wore whatever the headcovering and dress style yirei shamayim wore in his time.”
Aha…. So who changed from what the Yirei Shomayim wore then? Were they “modern”? Why don’t the Yirei Shomayim today wear what Rashi and those in his time did? At some point the Yirei Shomayim of a generation stopped wearing what the generation before them did. Were they outcasts from the mainstream, like YU? Or maybe they just weren’t “Yeshivish”?
Something to think about….
“non-colored clothing”
Does that mean either black or white?
Was there ever a point where mainstream american society considered colored shirts non chashuv?
Josh31: probably.
stanleyc: Have you ever heard of white-tie or black-tie events?
I think that on some level this indicates that society still considers dark suits and white shirts to be the most chashuv way of dressing.
When my hashkafically intact son asked to wear colored shirts outside of Yeshiva (our oldest boy, no real precedence had been set yet)I reluctantly said yes,but when he asked for a gaming system I said no. I think it important to educate our children with an understanding of the difference between what is proper ben Torah behavior, and what is preferred ben Torah behavior. I personally think he will behave and be spoken to differently if he is in more formal wear, but I don’t believe wearing it against his will will accomplish that.
Where everyone dresses as if they are Klei Kodesh, and on weekdays as if it is Shabbos, I get confused.
And when Klei Kodesh dress as if they are not, and others on Shabbos dress as if it is Chol, I also get confused.
Where everyone dresses as if they are Klei Kodesh
Seems to me that this was really part of chassidus. They wanted to underscore their opinion that one can be a good jew without being a talmid chochom. So they all dress like good jews.
Did I make that up?
Where everyone dresses as if they are Klei Kodesh
what do you mean by “klei kodesh” here? Like the gedolim? I never thought to ask, but I imagine that since the gedolim tell us what to do, they would have made their opinion known had they not wanted us to dress in the same colors (or lack thereof) as them.
and on weekdays as if it is Shabbos
As far as I know, everyone who dresses in black and white- Chassidish or Litvish- has different Shabbos clothing for Shabbos.
So what you are saying is that you would not attend a black-tie reception during the week?
This discussion has elicited over 100 comments so far and every few weeks the discussion repeats itself. Perhaps wearing the white shirt/black hat is an example of a tradition in the making. Many of us are old enough to remember wearing colored shirts to yeshiva and our fathers wearing gray or brown fedoras to shul, and colored shirts during the week. Come to think of it, the white shirt/black hat may not even meet the definition of a tradition just yet. It is possible that all this discussion is being generated by those of us wondering how this new “tradition” came to be.
1) Klei Kodesh are those with actual specific community responsibilities, with teaching Torah being the most typical. They dress out of respect for those responsibilities, not to advertise personal piety. Even the best boys just past Bar Mitzvah are not Klei Kodesh. edited
2) If one dresses in same colors on Shabbos as during the week, unless you see them both during the week and on Shabbos, there is no way to tell whether they are dresses LeKavod Shabbos or just because they have a large clothing budget.
3) Black Tie events are not that common even for the wealthy. Formal dress is generally worn in honor of the Bride & Groom.
j31- so we’ll wear formal dress in honor of the torah. sic.
Formal dress…black tie affair. Time to pull the tux out the mothballs and freshen up the top hat (black of course)?
Sometimes I wonder if this is the same Judaism I grew up on. What is the difference what color the shirt.Is it clean,neat,matching your other clothing,etc.seem to be more of a concern. When I was a child I remember Rabbonim wearing brown suits and hats also. Were they renagades. I think not. Judge the book noy by its cover.
Josh31:
Maybe there is a fkaw in your given:
1) Maybe they dress in formal black and white because there is a concept called “b’chol drachecha da’eyhu” and “shivisi hashem l’negdi tamid”. If you were hosting the president, I’m sure you would feel that the occasion warrants the status of black-tie. We are constantly “hosting” Hashem and should dress appropriately.
2) where does it say that another person has to be able to tell if you are dressed for Shabbos? I think it is only that you need to change your clothes, preferably to nicer ones. It is usually pretty clear when someones shoes seem extra spiffy one day a week.
3) So you are saying that the bride and groom deserve more honor than Hashem in who’s Presence we are constantly in?
When I was growing up, the concept of white collar worker vs. blue collar work was prevalent. B’Kitzur; white collar workers were professionals; doctors, lawyers, accountants, teachers, etc… whereas blue collar workers were manual workers, factory employess, etc… I am not sure the origin but I would surmise that blue shirts tended to hide the sweat of the employees.
But perhaps from a different perspective; white shirts and black slacks/pants tend to be the “lowest common denominator” in terms of color — lacking color means one does not concern themselves with matching, etc… and therefore little time is wasted when it comes to clothing (in the Yeshiva, Chassidic world).
I am not necessarily disagreeing with colored shirts (I wear them), I simply am trying to find the underlying foundation of a strict white shirt “policy” in some circles/circumstances.
“If you were hosting the president, I’m sure you would feel that the occasion warrants the status of black-tie.”
So, why when hosting hashem do we not dress the same way? How does a shirt that may or may not be tucked in, a hat precariously perched on the back of the head and a sport jacket that is wrinkled meet this criterion? You wouldnt greet the president dressed that way.
ayid: If its disrespectful to talk during davening why do so many people do it?
From another thread: posted by apushatayid
“About 28 years ago, as a 9th or 10th grader, I heard R’ Chaim Mintz Shlita, speak at the leil Shabbos Seuda in Yeshiva Staten Island. He was giving mussar to “those bachurim who went into the kitchen and ate cholent late thursday night and erev shabbos”…He listed a number of reasons why it was wrong among them, that chulent is a “special maychel shabbos” and should be saved for shabbos, and eating it before shabbos is a zilzul in the kavod shabbos.”
I feel the same way about white shirts.
Derech Hamelech: Your logic is good and it’s a Svara that I would say. But it’s against the Shulchan Aruch.
Sam2:
Your logic is good and it’s a Svara that I would say. But it’s against the Shulchan Aruch.
What is?
That wearing white shirts is Kavod for Hashem, the Torah, etc. and therefore we should only wear white shirts.
I don’t understand what you are saying. Can you clarify?
We might think that Kavod Hatzibbur or Kavod Hatorah etc. dictates that we always wear nice clothes (white shirts) to represent that. OC 53:18 tells us that’s not true.
i just bought a pink shirt
Josh31,
chulent is a “special maychel shabbos” and should be saved for shabbos, and eating it before shabbos is a zilzul in the kavod shabbos.”
I feel the same way about white shirts.
You consider white shirts a “special maychel shabbos”? 🙂
Seriously, there are two differences. First, there is specifically a minhag to eat cholent on Shabbos (based on the dispute between the Perushim and one of the groups of kofrim about how to understand “lo s’vaaru aish b’chol moshvoseichem”. Even if white shirts were only worn on Shabbos, I don’t think it reaches the status of “special beged Shabbos”.
Second, white shirts are not only worn on Shabbos. They are worn for most formal occasions, such as weddings, bar mitzvahs, business meetings, shul dinners, etc. (I would mention that many yeshivaleit wear them for all occasions, but that would still call into question how that was allowed to develop).
Sam2,
We might think that Kavod Hatzibbur or Kavod Hatorah etc. dictates that we always wear nice clothes (white shirts) to represent that. OC 53:18 tells us that’s not true.
You’re misunderstanding the S.A. . See M.B., and specifically what he says in the name of the Pri Chadash.
Some of the pre-Shoah Yeshivot in Europe did have bochurim in “modern” dress. I have seen photos of bochurim in straw hats, bow ties and striped suits. I assume that the choice of wearing a regular tie vs. a bow tie did not carry much significance. It was the clothing that was considered respectable in goyish society. However, photos of bochurim at other yeshivot show a different dress code, so their rosh yeshivah probably would have judged the dress code followed elsewhere as lax.
Or, DovidM, they looked different because that was the commonly available selection of clothing at the specific local. Untill the advent of the modern sewing machine, ( and this did not penetrate the backwaters) a set of clothing was not a pashut thing, and perhaps you took what you could find. This is also why Rashi, describing the top structure of the trachea ( a pink, pentagonal thing) says “it looks like a hat” (just don’t tell Borsalino)
In some communities white shirts are strongly linked to Shabbos.
In some communities white shirts are strongly linked to Shabbos.
Sure, those communities in which the men only wear colored shirts during the week. 🙂
“Sure, those communities in which the men only wear colored shirts during the week.”
Anything wrong with that?
About a year ago I had an important business meeting and made a point of getting a light blue shirt for the occasion to avoid using a Shabbos shirt.
Hi mods, please let this link through. It shows students of the Chevron yeshiva in the 20’s:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Hebron_Yeshiva_students%2C_c._1920s.png
And here we have Rav Hutner:
http://kedem-auctions.com/sites/default/files/278_3.jpg
not exactly dressed like today’s talmidim.
They had photoshop in the 1920’s?
You can photoshop a pic from the 1920’s today too.
The pics are bavust and mefursam. The old Chaim Berlin yearbooks have pictures of Rav Hutner in a grey suit and a mustache. Many of these pictures are available in the Atrscroll book “Tha Mashgiach”, about Rav Meir Chadash ZT”L.
I once heard from Rabbi Drillman about a certain gadol (I believe it was Rav Chaim Shmulevitz, if someone who is close to him can ask him to confirm I would appreciate it)who used to give a shiur dressed rather snazzily. A chassidishe bochur complained to the rosh hayeshiva, whereupon the rosh Hayeshiva told him that iluyim are allowed to dress how they want. Many years later, the chassidhse bochur, now an older man, met with this gadol in Eretz Yisroel. the gadol remembered the bochur from years back, and told him, in yiddish, “I look different now, no?”
Anything wrong with that?
No.
About a year ago I had an important business meeting and made a point of getting a light blue shirt for the occasion to avoid using a Shabbos shirt.
That’s fine, I was defending those who wear white shirts during the week against the implied criticism.
Just curious, do you also wear a light blue shirt to weddings?
Many sephardim wear white polo shirts to weddings. I have seen this with my own eyes.
“Just curious, do you also wear a light blue shirt to weddings?”
No.
Remember only white shirts can get Tzaraas.
The shirt I have on is too “white” for weekday wear and not up to snuff for Shabbos and weddings.
I bought this shirt before I was aware of DaasYochid and Derech HaMelech.
I bought this shirt before I was aware of DaasYochid and Derech HaMelech.
I wasn’t necessarily advocating your (or anybody else’s) wearing white shirts or any specific type of shirt, just defending those who do.
Like the white clothing of the High Priest, it has come time to take the white shirt(s) of this thread and stash them away.
leave me alone, it’s the best thing not to have to go through a closet and havta decide what to wear every day, and how to dress for events etc.
i see the torture the girls go through, so i thank hashem “shlo osani isha” but now that i’m in yeshivah and have no choice abt what shirt i want to wear, the black and white uniform suits me well…
Mods, please approve the following link:
Hi Jothar.
Great link. I really enjoyed looking through it.
Okay guys – the sad truth. The real reason boys and men wear white shirts is because then their moms/wives can soak them all in bleach and then wash them. Finished. Lowest maintenance option for clothing. No special care, no pre-treating. Just bleach, and done.
It seems to me that many of the young yeshiva students in the pics linked to above don’t have long sideburns (payot). It seems that some relied on lenient views of which bone is used to determine until where to grow the payot.
It also seems to me that wearing black is purely a European custom of what is formal. Clearly the passages in the Gemara that mention black don’t treat it as Chashuv. The Ben Ish Hai of Baghdad says not to wear black on Shabbat. But in European and Western culture, wearing black is considered dressed up.
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