- This topic has 37 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 3 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Someone asked me yesterday if they could cook kosher food for their non jewish students, in a treif microwave.
So I started wondering about if was being nehene from,or cooking, basar bchalav.
I’ll write what my brother and I thought later when I have time. Hello99 and Yitaynigwut seem to be on now.
Microwaves if not too dirty can be kashered in 3 minutes which would eliminate the shaila. But do we say there is hanah by bliahs bchlal? also is it derech bishul to microwave?
I believe the Badi Hashulchan talks about it(maybe like a mayan).This would have ramifications of bishul akum as well.
The page for the Badi Hashulchan is 17 in his biurim(he uses the word microgal=microwave).
I just noticed this, otherwise I would have responded sooner.
Hello99 and I had this one out a bit quite some time ago here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/%D7%AA%D7%AA%D7%90%D7%94-%D7%92%D7%91%D7%A8
My rav has a couple of teshuvos (??? ???? ??? ? ??”? ???? ?-?) in which he makes his case that one may l’chatchila prepare food in a “treife” microwave. Here is ???? ?:
??”? ??”? ???? ?? ???? ?
??? ????? ??”?: ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ???’, ??”?
????: ???????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ????, ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?”? ???????? ???, ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???
?????: ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???????, ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????, ?????? ????? ????? ?”? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ????. ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????. ???”? ?????? ?????, ?”? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ????, ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????, ?????? ?? ?? ??????? ????????, ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?”? ????. ??? ????? ????? ??”? ???????? ??? ????, ????? ???? ????, ???? ?? ????? ???? ????
???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??????, ??? ?”? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? [???? ???? ???? ??? ????], ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? (?? ????? ???????????? ?”? ??? ????, ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?”?), ??? ??”? ???? ???? ?? ??????, ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??????. ??? ?? ???? ????? ???”? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?????, ???? ?? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ????? [??”? ??’ ?”? ???’ ?, ???’ ??”? ???’ ?’] ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?”? [????? ????? ??????? ??”? ???”? ??’ ?”?], ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???, ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ????. ???? ???? ???????? ???? ????? ???? ???, ???”? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????
I was thinking about that, and truth is I don’t know 87 well enough yet. But let it be an issur hana’ah; since it is pogem the ta’aruvos you aren’t having hana’ah! (which is the Ran’s justification for the heter of ?”? ???? in the first place)
Rav Schachter quoted a Chazon Ish which would seem like a microwave is not Halachically considered Derech Bishul. I believe he quoted a Shittah of R’ Moshe that would disagree though.
i am in no way paskening this, but why is no one concerned that there is actual pieces/condensed shmutz of basar and chalav ON the walls and ceiling that is now being cooked? (of course this will also entail the bishul achar bishul question.)
1) Ein hachi nami, check to see if it’s clean.
2) Stam ???? ?”?. Even though we don’t pasken that mamashus gets nifgam, see this lashon of the Aruch Hashulchan in 122:
???? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???”? ??????? ????? ?? ??? ?”? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??????, ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???, ??? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??????, ???? ?? ???, ??? ?????? ???, ?? ?????? ???? ????? ?”? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ?”? ???? ???? ???”? ??? ????
You need to ask your rov or someone who is well versed in halocha as it pertains to microwaves. Someone up there write 3 mins. NO WAY!!
Sam2: I believe that Rav Moshe held that a microwave is bishul on shabbas and Rav Shlomo Zalman held it was bishul bchama since there is no fire. The Rivevos Ephraim held that it should be permitted but was machmir.See it for yourself it is good to see (http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1082&st=&pgnum=390&hilite=)
mark levin: Someone up there write 3 mins. NO WAY!!
I wrote “if not too dirty 3 min.” Once it is clean you run it on high with a cup of water until it fills with steam, but as you see above there seem to be those who are even more makil!
” he makes his case that one may l’chatchila prepare food in a “treife” microwave. Here is ???? ?:”
The issur hana’a question, I can’t answer.
But many poskim DO NOT hold from kashering a microwave at all. Double wrap anything you want to cook in it.
Yita: a couple of observations on the teshuva you posted. To say that bliyos takes time is the position of the Chamudei Doniel quoted in Pischei Teshuva 105 at the end of Seif 3. However, the Issur v’Heter HaAruch 30:14, Shut Maharsham 2:20, Pri Toar 98:9, Shevet HeLevi 10:116, Pri Megadim 68 mz 9 argue. See also a list of machmirim in Darkei Teshuva 105:65 and Badei HaShulchan 92:35 and Biurim.
Don’t know why it should be ??? ??????? ????, certainly no 60x in food against walls.
other issues too, but no time now
Igros Moshe calls microwave Bishul, but the logic is problematic. He writes that it is the same quality as a regular oven, and when they become more available everyone will only cook in them.
Shvus Yitzchok quotes the same from HaRav Elyashiv. Very extreme. Writes that no Bishul on fire after cooked in microwave because they are identical.
Hello99: Rivevos Ephraim makes a distinction from Rav Moshe between shabbas and not on shabbas(see link I posted before to see it).
hello99 –
See my response to you on the ???? ??? thread. The Aruch Hashulchan learns as a davar pashut like the Chamudei Daniel.
As for his mention of ??? ??????? ???? he is ma’arich in a different teshuva (???? ?) to say that it’s it’s only a minute amount of zeiah that could have been ???? in the walls and only ???? ????? because of ???? ???. If I have time later I’ll be ????? that one too.
yitay: The Aruch HaShulchan only agrees with the Chamudei Doniel by a dry, solid object. He writes that Rotev is instant. Zei’a is similar to Rotev as in the end of Siman 92
I don’t understand why we wouldn’t suspect that the walls of the microwave are full of Bliyos, just like we do with any pot. Again Zei’a is equivalent to being full of liquid. Additionally, it has been hit by months of repeated Zei’a and even w/o the Taz’s Iruim Harbeh, there is much more than a ????.
sam: an interesting teshuva. First he calls a microwave ??? then he writes it is steam. in the end he quotes Reb
Moshe and makes your distinction to resolve his chiddush with Reb Moshe. In any event, Reb Moshes basis for his Psak did not play out and the Metzius is inaccurate.
BTW Shvus Yitzchok actually distinguishes between a microwave running on solar generated electricity which is ?????? ???? and a gas or coal burning generator which is ?????? ???
Hello: The walls of a microwave aren’t hot though, so what concern could there be?
sam2: first of all ???? ??? would presumably make them hot, as the steam is rising from the bottom. Anyways, a liquid heated for more than a minute or so DOES make the roof of a microwave hot. Try it.
I agree, as ROB mentioned on a previous thread, if you only heat covered or very dry foods, you may not have a problem.Furthermoree, if the Zeia is hot, it absorbs even if the surface is not.
Hello: Rav Schachter always says that Tasa’a Gavar doesn’t mean the one that is literally on the bottom, but the rather the 1 that isn’t moving.
hello99 -I always heard if the product is Kli Bsoch Kli, you can cook in a non-kosher microwave, agree?
Sam2: that is the opinion of the Rashba, and it is quoted by the Shach in 2 places. However, on the ???? ??? thread I quoted a long list of Poskim who disagree. They include Tosafos, the Smak, Issur v’Heter HaAruch, Rema, Maharshal, Pri Chadash, other Shachs and the Chavos Da’as.
Health: theoretically you are correct. However, practically this is more often used for a conventional oven. The physics of a microwave makes it extremely likely that the steam pressure will burst any wrappings.
hello99 –
Here’s the other teshuva. It should explain more.
??”? ??”? ??’ ?”? ???’ ?’.
??? ????? ??”?: ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ???’, ?”?.
????: ?? ??????? ?? ???? ???????.
?????: ???? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ????. ????? ?????, ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???????? ????? ???? ????, ??”? ???? ???? ?????. ??? ?? ?? ???? ???????? ??? ????, ???”? ??? ????? ????? ???????, ???? ?? ????? ???, ?????? ??? ????, ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????, [??????? ??”? ??”? ??’ ?”? ?”? ?”?, ????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????, ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????, ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????????? ?”? ???????].
??? ????? ?? ????? ?????, ????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? [??’ ??”? ?? ???”? ???’ ?], ???? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????, ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ???”? [??”? ??’ ??”? ???’ ?’], ??? ???”? [??] ?? ?? ???? ???????, ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????, ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??????, ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ????, ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????. ??? ?? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ????.
???? ????? [??”? ???”? ??’ ?”?] ?????? ?? ?????? ?”? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????, ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?????. ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????, ?? ????? ????? ??? ?????, ?”? ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?????.
??? ??????? ?????? ????? ??, ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???. ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???, ??? ??????? ???? ???? [??”? ??’ ??”? ???’ ?”?], ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????. ??? ??? ??????? ???? ??????, ??? ?? ??? ???, ??”? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??????, ??? ???? ?????. ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????.
?????? ?????? ???????? ???? ????, ??? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ????, ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?????, ?? ?????. ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????, ???? ???? ????? ?????. ??? ?? ?? ????? ???”?.
Thank you very much. You described the Teshuva very accurately. Unfortunately, I disagree with almost every point, both in Metzius and in Halacha.
Oh well. It happens ๐
hello99 -“The physics of a microwave makes it extremely likely that the steam pressure will burst any wrappings.”
What if one is a box and it doesn’t burst?
Health: The reality of a microwave is that if it’s wrapped well enough, it will burst. Otherwise steam is escaping and you haven’t gained anything.
if it doesn’t burst, you’re fine. I don’t recommend it because it is a risk. If only a small amount of steam is escaping, it may not be a problem
hello99 -“The physics of a microwave makes it extremely likely that the steam pressure will burst any wrappings.
if it doesn’t burst, you’re fine. I don’t recommend it because it is a risk. If only a small amount of steam is escaping, it may not be a problem”
I don’t see what you’re afraid of because you posted above:
“Anyways, a liquid heated for more than a minute or so DOES make the roof of a microwave hot.”
If it bursts this usually happens right before the ending time -so how would the roof get hot?
yitayningwut said in the post up there: “1) Ein hachi nami, check to see if itโs clean.
2) Stam ???? ?โ?. Even though we donโt pasken that mamashus gets nifgam, see this lashon of the Aruch Hashulchan in 122:
???? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???โ? ??????? ????? ?? ??? ?โ? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??????, ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???, ??? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??????, ???? ?? ???, ??? ?????? ???, ?? ?????? ???? ????? ?โ? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ?โ? ???? ???? ???โ? ??? ????”
Obviously whatever he quoted from the Aruch HaShulchan did not come through on this site. Does anyone know which Aruch HaShulchan he quoted, was it 122:8? And if so, can someone translate it? Thanks.
Well I was able to find this topic on the wayback machine, where the Hebrew actually comes out. So the Aruch HaShulchan he quotes is this: ืจืื ืื ืืืคืืื ืืืขืช ืืืืจ ืืืฉ”ืข ืืืฉืืื ื ืจืืืฆื ืื ืืื ื ”ื ืืคืื ืืืื ืฉืขื ืคื ื ืืงืืจื ืืืคื ืื, ืืื ื ืืื ืืื ืืืฉ ืฉืืฉ ืื ืฉืื ืื ืืช ืืืื ืฉืฆืื ืืงืืจื ืืฉืจ ืฉืื ืืจืื ืืืืืฆื ืืื, ืืื ืืืื ืืืฉืืืื ืฉืื ื ืฉืืขืืงืจ ืืื ืืื ืืืจืืืคืื ืื ืชืคืืื ืืืื ืื ืืืืืืช, ืืืฉืจ ืื ืืขื, ืืื ืืืืืื ืืื, ืืฃ ืฉืืงืืจื ืืื ื ืจืืืฆื ื”ื ืื ืฉืขื ืคื ื ืืืืคื ืืื ืืื ืืืฉ ืืื ืืืืขื ืฉืืื ื ืจืืืื ืืืืืื ืืืื ืืฉ ืืืืฉืื ื ”ื ืืคืื ืืืืจ ืืขื”ืข ืืื ืขื ืื
Can anyone translate this please into English?
Roughly the same point made above by several posters with respect to surface accumulations of treifus which may or may not be easily cleaned. I have a feeling that there also may have been an issue as between the earlier microwaves which had interior plastic surfaces versus the steel and ceramic coatings used today (although plastic is still used a lot in the cheaper units..)
?The interior surface of the microwave over time gets greasy, such as a pot of greasy meat and so on, but such as our cooking, which is consists mainly of [boiling] water, [cooking potatoes or pancakes, with meat in it….etc……
Thanks gadolhadorah. In a related question, if someone warmed pareve food in a dirty microwave that has been used to cook basar b’chalav and there is remnants of that food in the microwave, or he warmed milchig or fleishig food in a dirty microwave that had been used to cook the opposite and there was remnants of it in the microwave, would the resulting food become assur b’han’ah?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.