October 22, 2009 3:39 am at 3:39 am #707969
I’m not talking about licentiousness. I’m talking about the doubts that plague today’s young couples.
For the record, this was not my chiddush. I heard it from my rabbeim. This was not an issur as much as it was good advice. Many took it, many ignored it. To each his/her own.
“Kol adam nichvas meichupaso shel chaveiro”.October 22, 2009 7:56 am at 7:56 am #707970
PashutaYid: “..have not read Tanach” Seconded. My Rosh once said “it is foolish to study musar, but to ignore the musar of the Neviim.”October 22, 2009 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #707971
Furthermore, this idea wasn’t originated by an ivory tower kanoi scanning obscure seforim to find a new chumra to foist upon the Orthodox world. The idea came from my rebbe, who was actively involved in counseling couples and mediation for shalom bayis.October 22, 2009 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #707972
R’ Nosson Wachtfogel Z”L was very much against young Kollel couples having bachurim for guests on Friday nights, when the husband, who spends all day long in the Yeshiva, and goes to learn during the weeknight, as well, should be spending time speaking to and bonding with his wife. The bachurim do have a place to eat in the Yeshiva dining room, and won’t be hungry.October 22, 2009 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #707974
Not to worry. By our Yeshiva bachrim eat at the yeshiva on Friday nights and at people’s homes shabbos day. At this point i wouldnt be inviting anyone over friday night only in the day.October 22, 2009 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #707975
There seem to be several concerns running through this thread.
1: Inappropriate “mingling” of married couples. A question in hilchos ishus.
2: The jealousy created when one compares their spouse to someone elses. A question of shalom bayis.
Question. When the torah wants us to share our Yom tov, with the “Ger, Yasom and Almanah” did the torah not know that the Almanah was the opposite gender of the man of the house? Did the torah not know that yesomim belong to both genders. Does the torah want us to do away with chessed because of concerns we may have? Of course not. The torah wants us to do this chessed in the appropriate manner. Unsure what is appropriate? Ask your Rav, dont assur hachnosas orchim. If it isnt really hachnosas orchim, rather a way for the guys to get together and hang out and make a lichayim, while the women do whatever it is women do while their husbands are busy making lichayims, then it is laitzonus disguised as hachnosas orchim and against the torahs wishes anyway.October 22, 2009 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #707976
jphone, every generation has its own nisyonos. There’s a reason we don’t have orchard dances anymore on 15 Av. What is appropriate for one generation isn’t for another. That’s what gedolim are for.October 22, 2009 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #707977
I just felt I had to add my “2 cents” here. People, there is no one derech for Hashkafic issues like this. Turning on a light on Shabbos is a matter of Halacha, and everyone agrees it’s ossur. But this? It really comes down to sensitivities and the general mahalach of you and your chosen community. Some have no problem with it, and I think that should be fine for them. If you are uncomfortable, then don’t. ASK!
I think one point of having children/not having children yet is that the kids are a major distraction as the families are busy taking care of them, interacting with them, etc.
I remember that in sem, I sometimes went to a shana rishona couple, where the man was quite “shmoozy”, and I felt uncomfortable. I didn’t want to chat so much with him, but that meant jumping up and follwing the wife everytime she went into the kitchen! I always went with a friend, but still…
Keep in mind that there are so many other people out there that need invitations, either because they’re lonely, for kiruv, etc. Invite them!October 22, 2009 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #707978
Jothar. I really dont understand. These nisyonos have been around since Adam and Chava. They were certainly around at Mattan Torah. Chazal had to do some “redocorating” in the beis hamikdash because of this. This isnt something that is new or unique to our dor. Only the response, “assur it” is new and unique.October 25, 2009 3:21 am at 3:21 am #707979
I have been invited many times to Shabbos meals where they have single girls which usually makes me uncomfortable. I don’t mind so much going to houses of Kollel couples although I can see the tzad to be machmir, I don’t think it is necessary. Each person has to make his own judgments.October 25, 2009 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #707980
I am with Squeak and Pashuteh Yid. They both made very rational points.October 26, 2009 3:17 am at 3:17 am #707981
Jphone, in no other generation were things so overt as they are now. Between prusta commercials on CBS newsradio during morning hours to highly provocative ads to extremely liberal social mores to highly available pritzus unrealistic expectations for wives caused by such highly available pritzus, the yetzer hara is stronger than ever. Plus, people are more ready to consider a divorce today than before. finally, according to my rav, people today are more immature than they used to be. Combine all these factors and there’s a good reason why a rav or rebbe would give such advice- NOT an issur, but practical advice based on the hours of counseling and dozens of people spoken to.October 26, 2009 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #707983
How is waiting a year or 2 before going to another young couple a lack of “kavod habriot”?October 26, 2009 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #707984
When the wait is predicated upon an irrational fear that the wives might have some intangible and unquantifiable deleterious effect of the men, there is an incipient lack of kavod habriot.October 26, 2009 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #707985
Advise from Torah leaders such as R’ Nosson Wachtfogel Z”L for young couples to have more “together” time gets turned into a new “tznius” restriction by the Kanoim (zealots), some of whom are in the CR.October 26, 2009 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #707986
” people today are more immature than they used to be”
And that, IMO, is because some of our kids are being infantilized and over-protected from the outside world, while at the same time forced to date in an unrealistic manner and get married before they are ready to assume the responsibilities of married life.October 26, 2009 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #707987
Josh31, advice to newlyweds to have more “together time” is a far cry from what’s been bandied about here. Indeed newly weds must learn to make their joint way in the world together. Doing that requires them to get to know eachother on a level they could never get to before the wedding. But there are those couples, the majority in fact, who also look for and need the reassurance and validation provided by a peer group. Why restrict that?October 26, 2009 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #707988
If we cannot learn from Avraham and Sarah, who not only always opened their home to guests, but in fact always opened them to STRANGERS, then we have learned nothing about the mitzvah of Hachnossas Orchim.October 26, 2009 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #707989
The advice I was given doesn’t apply to a couple about to start their second centennial like Avrohom and Sarah. It also doens’t apply to having bachurim or a couple married a longer time. Efsher lekayem sheneihem.October 26, 2009 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #707990
Pashuteh Yid – I was at a meal with 2 couples and some single girls, and at the start of the meal, one guy complimented the other’s wife on how pretty she looked that day. Totally inappropriate. So yes, these things do happen.
Keep in mind that these were 2 newlywed couples, and both are still married with a number of children.October 27, 2009 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #707991
I would like to point out that my rebbe wasn’t a kanoi. His advice was based on actual real-life experience with counseling newlyweds. Considering my yeshiva had a lower divorce rate than average for the Orthodox community (what some are calling the “divorce crisis”), I’d say he knew his audience well.November 9, 2010 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #707992
Have been having bochurim for 13 years, depends alot on wifes tzniyus, have seen (by others) enough times the bochurim trying to shmooze with the lady of the house. It is a known fact young couples espec shud not party together. This stuff is basic.Arayos is alot bigger then the actual aveirah, and anyone here making believe there is no issue at hand, is not even fooling themselves, and u know it!November 10, 2010 2:28 am at 2:28 am #707993
holy brother, this sounds like Moshe Rose.November 10, 2010 3:51 am at 3:51 am #707994
“Pele Yoetz” talks about the issue.
Separate seating by weddings is very good. Kol makom she’ata motzi geder erva, ata motzi kedusha. Especially, when women are dressed to kill and look like supermodels.November 10, 2010 3:53 am at 3:53 am #707995
Honestly I don’t understand what the question is. If YOU live in a Yeshivish community and your husband goes to that Yeshiva aren’t you obligated to ask the Rosh yeshiva and abide by the rules and customs that he sets for his yeshiva olam?
In all honesty if your husband is part of THAT yeshiva, you should keep to the rules of THAT yeshiva. It might be better to meet the other women for lunch or brunch or tea Shabbos afternoon when the men go to Mincha, if the Rosh prefers that couples don’t mingle then that is what you follow. If on the other hand the Rosh encourages hachnasos orchim, then that is what you follow.November 10, 2010 4:18 am at 4:18 am #707996
The story was with Reb Meir Shapiro and the Chofetz Chaim. The Chofetz chaim told Reb Meir Shapiro that the Shulchan Aruch says that one must eat the shabbos meal with his wife so therefore he could not accomodate the Lubliner Rav’s request.
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