Daven With A Hat BeYichidus or Without it with a Minyan

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  • #1081728
    Yanky55
    Member

    Pashuteh Yid-

    Thanks for typing out exactly what I was about to post. (Why DO we waste our time on this site?)

    I cannot believe Will Hill agreed with me (and seemed to think I had no doubt that wearing a hat is more important than tefilah b’tzibur) when I said it is a sad commentary on the state of frumkeit when such a question is posed.

    It truly IS sad that people believe wearing a (black) hat equals being frum, and (ad kidai kach) that one should daven beyichiydus if a hat is not available.

    I’ve read many krum posts here, but this takes the cake.

    I think the yeshivos are responsible for this. They teach boys NOT to think. Each and every thing must be presented to a Rav or a Rebbe, no matter how simple.

    This results in mass production of ignorant men, who if presented with a situation where there is no one around to ask a shayla of, are completely lost.

    Very sad………….

    #1081729
    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    gavra- ur completely wacked outta yo mind man. You’d make a great CIA agent

    #1081730
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    areivimzehlazeh:

    Huh? Was it the “everyone should learn mussar” post?

    #1081731
    Joseph
    Participant

    gavra, areivim was probably humorously referring to “Guess you could go and pretend you were not davening, and hide a siddur inside a sefer!”

    #1081732
    moish01
    Member

    i’m sorry, but that’s a little sick. you have to PRETEND you’re not davening? (would they even let me into the bais medrash without a hat?)

    davening is a personal thing. how could they tell you how to dress? if i show up to shul in jeans and a t-shirt i should be able to join a minyan like a regular guy.

    #1081733
    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    Joseph- correct

    #1081734
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Joseph, thank you for the link! I missed a fun conversation!

    it’s a matter as well of protocol, and convention

    Protocol and convention change based on the minhag hamakom, correct?

    you cant stand before the Ribbono Shel Olam in bluejeans, sandals, a t-shirt and baseball cap the same way you stand before him in a dark suit white shirt tie, and formal hat, especially as it conforms to the conventions of the local Yeshiva community {because of how YOU feel}, the Yiddin who understand the need to set ourselves apart from the nations, externally as well as internally, as is expressed throughout Tanach and Oral Law.

    someone maybe isnt on that madrega, fine, but dont say that is not the madrega we should all aspire to.

    I disagree that the clothing you wear makes for a better or worse davening. I understand that we try to dress better for kavod Hashem, but I don’t think the clothing makes the tefila any better. You can be dressed to the nines and still have zero kavana, or dressed in jeans and daven very well.

    Now we should all be striving to get closer to Hashem in ALL aspects of our lives. But I disagree that the yeshivish dress code is the only way to go.

    #1081735
    yossiea
    Member

    feivel,

    You state that you have to be dressed with respect to daven. Who disagrees?

    Is davening with your jacket over your shoulders with your hat up and to the back respect?

    #1081736
    dd
    Member

    Pashuteh Yid (a voice of reason, as usual) asked: “Are you all telling me that the hesder boys who do not wear hats are bad Jews?”

    The hesder boys are amazing in their mesiras nefesh. They learn Torah and risk their lives to protect us. Just thinking about them makes me realize how shallow it is when some people judge others based on hats.

    #1081737
    tentwenty30
    Member

    thanks for answering my question.

    In reference to the Mishnah B’rurah that was cited, I am pretty sure that he says the reason for wearing a hat is b/c that is how people dress in the street. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that that is not the case today

    #1081738

    Is this topic for real? Obviously its allowed bc not everyone wears a hat!!! Get real.

    #1081739
    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    moish01: ha i was wondering how long it would be till you posted in this thread!!!

    #1081740
    oomis
    Participant

    ” if i show up to shul in jeans and a t-shirt i should be able to join a minyan like a regular guy. “

    Though I totally do not think that mode of dress is the BEST way to show up in Shul, I had this experience with my son who tried very hard never to miss a minyan. He was going from a camp job and did not have the time to change, or he would have missed the minyan which was an open to the public daily minyan at a local Yeshivah. He was in jeans and a casual shirt, and when he came into the shul was immediastely asked to leave by someone choshuv in the Yeshivah. Had he not been my son and were he not firmly committed to his Yiddishkeit, this humiliating action could have been the straw that broke the camel’s back in turning him off the derech. And the person responsible would have been smug in his not allowing “someone like that” inside HIS shul. Mind you, I had a long talk with him about the inadvisability of going into shul straight from camp before having a chance to change, but I commended him for making the minyan a priority, no matter what.

    #1081741
    Josh31
    Participant
    #1081742
    moish01
    Member

    asdfghjkl – i was actually reading it the whole time and not posting because i’m not much of a davener. i mean i daven sometimes when i feel like it, but i hardly ever make minyan and i think i lost my hat close to two years ago. so this whole thread really doesn’t apply to me.

    #1081743
    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    moish01: yeah, i thought of you when this thread started!!!

    #1081744
    posek hador
    Member

    rav elyashiv paskened [and his gabbai told me b`pheirush] only a ben-torah who will not walk in the street without a hat and jacket is permitted to miss tefillah btzibur otherwise you must daven.

    #1081745
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    only a ben-torah who will not walk in the street without a hat and jacket is permitted to miss tefillah btzibur otherwise you must daven.

    If you wouldnt leave the house without a hat and jacket, when would you be somewhere that you didnt have your hat and jacket?

    #1081746
    squeak
    Participant

    SJS, I believe that was Joseph’s question.

    #1081747
    notpashut
    Member

    The issue of whether to daven b’yechidus with a hat & jacket or b’tzibbur without one is a HALACHIC issue.

    NOT an issue of personal feelings.

    R’ Elyashiv & R’ Shlomo Zalman hold that it’s better to daven with a minyan because from a HALACHIC standpoint they feel that is what should be done. Not because they feel that the other option is “sick” or “a sad commentary on society” or any other rediculous, nonsencical (I think I spelled both wrong) reason.

    R’ Chaim Kanievsky holds it’s better to daven b’yichidus for HALACHIC reasons. Not because he’s more “yeshivish” then R’ Elyashiv.

    You have a kashya on R Chaim’s shittah? Ask like a mentch & maybe someone can explain it to you. If noone can and it really bothers you then you can send him a letter – he responds to EVERY SINGLE letter he recieves. (just include a self-adressed stamped envelope)

    Once again, a good many posters have shown that their judiasm is based upon what they “feel” is right or wrong – not on what the Shulchan Oruch says is right or wrong.

    Continue with that mehalech & you’ve missed the boat in life which is to do what HASHEM wants – not what YOU want.

    Perhaps some of my responses were a bit nasty, but you’ll excuse me if I have a difficult time speaking gently to people who think that R’ Chaim Kanievsky is just another yo-yo with whom we can disagree based on our “feelings” of what’s right without ever having opened a Mishna Berura.

    #1081748
    moish01
    Member

    asdfghjkl – that’s sweet of you. why in the world would you know about my davening patterns?

    #1081749
    jphone
    Member

    “If you wouldnt leave the house without a hat and jacket, when would you be somewhere that you didnt have your hat and jacket?”

    My hat and jacket dont approve of everywhere I go, so there are times when they stay home and I am forced to daven without them.

    #1081750
    Joseph
    Participant

    Thank you notpashut.

    #1081751
    oomis
    Participant

    “but you’ll excuse me if I have a difficult time speaking gently to people who think that R’ Chaim Kanievsky is just another yo-yo with whom we can disagree based on our “feelings” of what’s right without ever having opened a Mishna Berura”

    Notpashut, I do not mean to disparage your obviously deeply-felt words, but I really cannot imagine anyone thinking that R’ Kanievsky could possibly be described by such words. But I still do not think that it is better to daven by oneself i.e., at home in a hat, than to daven in a minyan without a hat. By the way, do non-married girls also have to wear a head covering when davening? Do they have to show less respect than boys? And for every Mishnah Berura that shows that males should wear a hat, there apparently is a differing OPINION that is also halachically acceptable, or NO frum men would ever walk into a shul without a hat, just as no frum man would walk into a shul or anywhere else without a yarmulke. Just a thought…

    #1081752
    Curious
    Member

    ames – I daven with my hair uncovered, without a hat and b’yichidus. What does that make me?

    #1081753
    jphone
    Member

    Can someone please provide the SOURCE of this supposed psak by R’Chaim Kanievsky Shlita? Is it published in a sefer? Which one?

    I have a hard time writing a shayla to the Rav shlita that begins; “While browsing through the YWN Cofee Room…….”

    #1081754

    Moish: ur not a davening person, that’s so sad!! I’m being so serious, praying isn’t for Hashem of for enyone elses benifit, its for urself!! Ur day is much better, ur life is much better, why wouldn’t u want to pray?? (Sorry I say pray, not daven) after your don’t praying u have such a satisfaction!! Am I the only one who thinks this way?

    #1081755
    Joseph
    Participant

    Curious – perhaps ames is married.

    #1081756
    squeak
    Participant

    ames said she is married. Curious, that makes you a single (eligible) frum girl.

    #1081757
    Curious
    Member

    Joseph – duh!

    #1081758
    moish01
    Member

    i do daven when i feel like it. isn’t that what davening is? when you feel the need you do it. otherwise i feel like it’s a waste of time.

    #1081759

    I meant after ur done praying u have such a satisfaction…

    #1081760
    Joseph
    Participant

    Curious – perhaps ames is married.

    #1081761
    Curious
    Member

    Joseph – should I say “duh” again?

    #1081762
    notpashut
    Member

    “Notpashut, I do not mean to disparage your obviously deeply-felt words, but I really cannot imagine anyone thinking that R’ Kanievsky could possibly be described by such words. But I still do not think that it is better to daven by oneself i.e., at home in a hat, than to daven in a minyan without a hat.”

    I’m saying this in the nicest, gentlest way that I can.

    We know what R’ Elyashiv holds & we know what R’ Chaim holds, so who cares what you hold?

    Thank you for beautifully proving my point.

    Joseph,

    Thank YOU

    Jphone,

    I’ve seen it in numerous seforim, one of them is hilchos netilas yadayim v’nikius b’tfilla

    #1081763
    Joseph
    Participant

    Curious – Yes. I enjoy hearing it from you.

    #1081764
    yossiea
    Member

    If you’re female, you can daven with your hair uncovered, even if you’re married, as long as no males are present. It’s not erva for you, it’s erva for men.

    #1081765
    Curious
    Member

    You’ll get an LOL instead

    #1081766
    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    moish: i wasn’t refering to your davening patterns earlir, but on the hat issue actually!!! moish davening is something you gatta do daily, not just when ya fell like it buddy!!! at least try for shachris!!!

    #1081767

    Moish, there’s no use, ull have an answer for me no matter what I say.

    #1081768
    oomis
    Participant

    “We know what R’ Elyashiv holds & we know what R’ Chaim holds, so who cares what you hold?”

    Clearly YOU don’t. That is your prerogative. Let me ask you, what does R’ Chaim hold on embarrassing people in public? Which Mishnah in the Mishnah Berurah discusses this?

    Yossiea, I know that women can daven without their hair being covered as long as no men are present (if the women are married), although I thought the covering was for married women in the presence of their husband who is making a bracha. Irrespective of that, so why do you think girls do not have to cover their own hair with at least a hat when davening, but boys do (according to those who have referenced the Mishnah Berurah and R’ Chaim) when they are already wearing a yarmulke? Why does one need NO covering (even in Shul), and the other according to some, requires TWO?

    #1081769
    moish01
    Member

    i would but i’m usually still sleeping. i’ve been really good about putting on tfillin lately.

    my question is, is ther a point in davening if you’re not really davening? then it’s just a stupid meaningless action. so why bother? at least when i daven i really daven.

    #1081770
    Joseph
    Participant

    oomis, you missed his point. Your “opinion” on a halachic matter is of zero value. There is nothing to be embarrased about. Both notpashut and my own “opinion” on a halachic matter is also worthless.

    #1081772
    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    moish01: i’m happy to hear, that you’re really good about putting on tefillin lately!!! you really should try to put more kavana, into your daily davening so it would not feel like a meaningless action!!!!

    #1081773
    moish01
    Member

    you can’t create kavana. it’s either there or it’s not.

    and why am i talking about this online to strangers? i must be crazy.

    #1081774
    anonymisss
    Participant

    Well, I’m not God, so I can’t swear on this one, but, I’m fairly certain that He’d be more than happy to hear from you with/without the hat/jacket, or in jeans/tshirt.

    Moish, good for you that you’re trying, (yes, you definitely still get A+ for effort.) You are, I’m sure, aware that I don’t need you to pray, God doesn’t need you to pray, only you need you to pray. I’m happy to hear that you’re trying. Keep it up!

    ~a~

    #1081775
    asdfghjkl
    Participant

    moish01; we’re not strangers, we’re friends!!! ames has some great points, read what she said!!!!

    #1081776
    moish01
    Member

    thanks for the marks morah anonymisss.

    ames, i know, but you still can’t create kavana. and sometimes i just don’t feel like davening. i’m supposed to anyway? communication is when you feel like talking, not when you HAVE to talk.

    plus sometimes i feel like i shouldn’t daven. like after i do something that i know is wrong, how can i go daven? i’m not trying to make light of davening. a actually take it pretty seriously (unlike MANY people)

    #1081777

    Of course u can create kavana!!

    #1081778
    Curious
    Member

    I like your answer ames.

    Moish, do you believe me now that you’re crazy?

    What about the deal I proposed on the hangman thread?

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