dealing with Jews with aveiros

I mean I’m not saying they shouldn’t get divorced but the alternative is also sinful

All respect due to Rav Moshe ZT”L and lhbchl”ch Rav Mintz. An issue, often misunderstood by many, is the limits and constraints of the mitzvah of tochacha. We tend to see it as rebuking people who have sinned. Actually, that is NOT the mitzvah. The mitzvah is all about intervening to stop someone from committing an aveiro, and its place is before the sin, not after. The baalei mussar weigh in on this, with guidelines as to how to perform this and when not to. For example, the Mesilas Yeshorim (Perek 20) openly states that it is applicable only when the person is likely to accept the tochacha. If not, the mitzvah is to be silent. And Chazal say that a proper mochiach is hard to find.

I’m not a posek. It seems clear that the reference here is about a new baal teshuvah who is likely not ready to give up his marriage. Following the MY, the correct approach is to refrain from tochacha.

It is critical to repeat an oft ignored basic concept. What we call tochacha is about preventing aveiros, not rebuking or punishing after they have been committed. There is an aspect of chinuch, educating someone who has sinned. That is NOT tochacha. It is education. And a talmid must be receptive in order for this to be effective. One who is not ready should not be given useless education, even if the subject matter is Torah.

TLIK: Everyone is obligated per halacha to give tochacha when necessary.

The requirements to give Tochachah are:

1) You have to first assess that there is at least a reasonable possibility of the person listening to you. (Sometimes there are Halachic ways of assessing this.)

2) You have to give the Tochachah in a non-aggressive manner, and never in front of people.

3) You have to make the person understand that the only reason you are giving him the Tochachah is because you care about him, and it is for his good, so that he can get Olam Habah.

It also says in Sefer HaChinuch perek 239 that you should give someone tochacha privately and in a nice way; but if they don’t listen to you, then you should embarrass them in public so that they will do teshuvah.

@Always_Ask_Questions,

My comment didn’t go through I think:

I was saying, there really is no reason for the commenters to get heated by your post, it really is simple logic what you posted, but as it is a situation which would make a difficult she’ela, that is why we have Gedolim, which is what is behind R’ Moshe’s psak, and from my knowledge- the psak of basically every Rav/Posek that deals with these situations.

In short, TAFASTA MERUBAH LO TAFASTA, you are trying to get the guy to run before he can walk, if you try and get him to divorce before he’s properly STABELY and steadfast in his yiddishkeit, it could backfire….

Always_Ask_Questions you were 100% right!

@GadolHadofi,

besides you might forget that it was actually zionists who worked with and for the nazi’s….

Not only did Zionists work with the Nazis, but so did R Weissmandel and other gedoilim, read Esther Farbstein’s book Hidden in the Heights

somejew – Actually, that Chazon Ish is the biggest proof against most of what you are trying to say. The Chazon Ish isn’t saying that because of the הסתר פנים we aren’t ABLE to do מורידין וכו׳, but that due to the הסתר פנים there is greater לימוד זכות on “sinners” (who usually anyway don’t know what they are doing Jewishly, which is another famous Chazon Ish you don’t like… But it exists.) At a time when there was a much higher level of התגלות אלקות and Kedusha in Klal Yisroel, if some meshigina rasha merusha would go and do A B C then he would incur much more severe מידת הדין than some nebbech who grew up in Tel Aviv and maybe his elter Zeide still kept something. That doesn’t mean we should hang around with these people stam azoi, or “integrate” into secular Israeli society chas veshalom, but from there until מורידין is a long way. And before you hock me about how secular Israelis really do know about Torah and Mitzvos and they aren’t תינוק שנשבה, it really isn’t so pashut. Someone born and raised with a completely secular chinuch and brainwashed against anything Jewish/Chareidi really isn’t a full fledged בעל בחירה on things that to you and me are self understood. How exactly to deal with different situations and interactions with them requires guidance from Gedolei Yisroel, but to write them out of Klal Yisroel is something else entirely.

AAQ and Pure Yiddishkeit – 100% on the mark. These are very tricky situations that need “breite plaitzes” to navigate. Reb Moshe’s approach was very brilliant both Halachically and in terms of human sensitivity. (Not that he needs my haskamah chas veshalom.)

“nevuah” – Your first cousin is your parents siblings child, so er how is that different from incest?

Because we have a list of relatives assur to marry, found in Chumash at the end of Achrei Mos. The Gemara in Yevamos adds a few issurim d’rabbonon. Cousins (let alone 8th cousins!) are not on either list. Whether it is a good idea or not in any given situation is different, but it isn’t assur or “immoral”, and it has definitely been done by ehrlich people.

AAQ – To make a long story short:

1. That is on the political/public level. The stuff you see in the news. On the interpersonal level (which is where real kiruv happens) the reality is radically different. I see less day-to-day hostility in my (daily) interaction with “secular” Israelis than I see right here in the comments on YWN by “Frum” Americans.

2. You only cited one (beautiful) anecdote that happened in America decades ago, so I’m not sure what that has to do with the general approach to kiruv, here or there, then or now. There is a world of difference between dealing with the secular Israeli government (not really even the government itself anymore so much as the judiciary junta that has become the de-facto government) and dealing with individuals. Practically speaking, in Israel it is exponentially less common for an aspiring Baal Teshuvah to be married to a non-Jew. There are other issues that the poskim and kiruv people know how to deal with as needed.

It’s still the same bloodline. Even if your marrying your 8th cousin it’s still the same bloodline which directly relates that person somewhere to your direct family line. Why would you want to do that exactly?

There are always reprecussions to marrying into the same bloodlines. Doesn’t matter how “far off” it is. So I’m not sure why anyon would condone/justify/explain it away

AAQ – Sorry if I wasn’t clear enough. I wasn’t dismissing the veracity of the story you posted. My point was that there is a difference between public statements or things printed in seforim etc. as opposed to case-by-case personal guidance. The latter is where these types of “kulos” can and do come into play, in Israel too. But one needs “breite plaitzes” to do that, so poskim don’t publicize these things in the public domain to prevent every “Tom Dick and Harry” from copying them inappropriately. The fact that you happened to hear one such story about Reb Moshe zt”l doesn’t mean that there weren’t many such stories by Rav Ovadia zt”l, Reb Shlomo Zalman zt”l, and Reb Nissim Karelitz zt”l (just listing three Israeli poskim I heard similar stories about “shocking” kulos WRT kiruv.)

WRT Rav Soloveitchik, that is one of the main reasons he never wanted to move to Israel despite various offers.

WRT Chareidi-secular relations in real daily life: As I have repeatedly pointed out, the reality on the ground isn’t anything close to what you read online. News is all about “man bit dog”, “clickbait”, and related garbage. When Chareidim and non-Chareidim are nice to each other you don’t see it in the headlines. The truth is that the vast majority of Israelis despise the AG and Supreme Court for their divisiveness and hate-mongering, but there is a small and disproportionately powerful group backing them.

The Torah does allow for men to take wives from other nations but we got too technical, so we can blame ourselves for this genetic bottleneck. It’s our own sins that causes more sins. But ok. It shouldn’t be something to condone.