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cherrybim:
Well stated!!
SHIDDUCH REMINDER: BUYER BEWARE!!! Do your research carefully. A GREAT Yichus or perfect looking family could just be a charade. DON’T RUSH INTO MARRIAGE BECAUSE YOU ARE AFRAID OF SHIDDUCH STATISTICS.
If there is a history of abuse and estrangement in the family, check things out carefully, and go in with your eyes W-I-D-E open.
cherrybim!
Do you want to add to the shidduch crisis? If these boys are not perfect, there will be even less perfect boys.
Popa, I’m trying to figure what you’re talking about.
I’m saying that if we tell people when boys are no good, there will be less “good” boys available to marry.
cherrybim, try reading his posts as being sarcastic and cynical. the meaning should then emerge
Uh Oh!!
Here comes AZ!!
Cherrybim, if you know the person asking and you know for a fact that the person in question is absolutely guilty of those facts, you can then answer the question with, “i don’t believe it is a good shidduch for you. I don’t know the boy well, but the family is not the kind you are looking for” without going into more detail.
popa_bar_abba, I read your post you wrote commenting on my post and I want to explain further, but reading your further posts on this thread, I just want to check are you for real?? Or is Mod 80 right and should we just read your posts as sarcastic??
aidle
im sorry, i didnt mean ALL his posts
just those two (and occasional others)
I would like to add a personal thought related especially to the Chareidi-Yeshiviish world, especially in EY, both of which I’m a part of. A large percentage of those around me live in a virtual reality, a facade, a phony self.
Some stay in Kollel because it looks good, including pressure from some peoples wifes. Some leave Kollel for the same reason. Some dress modern Yeshiviish, frumy, etc., all to satisfy the way they deal with society. I have a former talmid who is a big Baal Mosed, without the minimaal amount of Yiras Shamayim to be doing anything directly related to Chinuch.
Living as a phony is bound to cause friction. We really need to get back to the basics and start acting as our real selves.
aidle:
the reply to you was real.
My YWN personality exhibits signs of Dis-associative Identity Disorder. (a definite psul in shidduchim- although it is thought by many experts to not even exist)
“A comparison to chassidim is therefore disingenuous since their hashakafa and society is different.
Likewise a story about a couple who dated for 6 months, since they were either relatively modern, or had some serious issues to work through. (If the latter, we can speculate on why they got divorced)”
popa_bar_abba, The point I bought up is that I don’t think having few dates is a factor for the divorce crisis. So what if chassidim have a different hashkafa?? What has that to do with it?? If your saying I can’t compare it to them because they have a different society/hashkafas then your saying that is our problem then! The society and haskafas! Nothing to do with the amount of dates then.
The couple who dated for 6 months and unfortunately had such a short lived marriage, divorced because the husband did something horrific. All that dating never revealed what he would be like after marriage. What I’m trying to show you is that I feel it has nothing to do with the amount of meetings, as so many people have written on here- its about working on the marriage and working on our faults.
Oh, and by the ways mods, haven’t been in the coffee room for a while, have come back n have noticed the amazing improvement! My post was up here in seconds and the site in general looks great! Good work guys!
“Maybe the whole shidduch system is faulty – 5-6 dates and an engagement is announced! Making a lifetime commitment takes more than that brief period of time”
I haven’t written on here for a very long time but when I read your post…Yossi please, I got engaged after 7 meetings and I am very happily married bH. Funny thing is that one of my friends just got divorced after 5 months of maariage and she went out with her husband for 6 MONTHS. It has NOTHING to do with it. Do chassidim who meet for a very short amount of time have a higher divorce rate?? And one more thing, my huband was just speaking about this with his Rav the other day. He said whats the point of all this dating if you don’t really get to know the person anyway till after you’re married? And you know what our Rav said without even thinking twice? He said THERE IS NO POINT!!! He said as long as there is no obvious things that bother you there is no other reason to continue dating, because for what??
This is not in lines with the thinking today, but realistically, isn’t there more of a chance for a marriage to work if the couple knows each other for two months over two weeks? Granted, there are many people who are very happy after knowing their spouse for a month (which is probably average or more than average today), but how many people say they wish they had gone out for a longer time? Isn’t it better to be safe than sorry? And the reason the short thing work for some people and the long thing for others, is possibly because they are more emotionally ready? How many people are rushed into an engagement, by a parent, friend, or just by the excitement of being engaged and are not emotionally ready?
~~~~~~~~~
I once heard from Rabbi Dovid Orlofsky, (paraphrasing) the people with the best marriages are the ones who walk in expecting to give 80%.
Could someone explain to me why everything is a crisis? An issue, maybe. But a crisis?!
Anyone think that better education for marital relations will help the cause?
mod 80, what do you have against popa? why is it ok for a moderator to post nasty things about someone? or, why is it ok for someone who posts nasty things to be a moderator?
go popa!
(popa happens to have the some of the best perspectives in the coffee room.)
wow! thanks the beginning.
you better not be one of my brothers. (they all know my username. one of them posted to me once and told me weeks later.)
aidel:
I think I can agree with your latest post.
I think that was the point I was trying to make that the amount of dates is really secondary to the other social issues.
I happen to conclude that there is therefore no reason to encourage one society’s methods over another’s, since importing the dating method without the society would not lead to similar results.
i have nothing against popa
as a matter of fact i like the persona
i didnt post anything nasty about him
hes not a child
i pointed out the character of those two posts that another poster did not catch and that i believe popa intended
i dont believe popa would disagree with my assessment
if not, popa please stand up, and ill gladly delete my “nasty” posts
mod 80:
I agreed with your assessment.
The best advice I ever heard about marriage is that the wife must obey everything the husband commands.
Like the Marines, the only permissible responses to a husband are either Yes Sir, No Sir, or No Excuse, Sir.
Native Israel said above:
parents have got to mix out of their childrens lives and give them independence
I know someone who, if not for their parents involvement, would be married to a partner who defiantly was not right. Lets just say that, in marriage, one is not supposed to be a mother but a wife (or vice-versa).
You are right, parents have to back off and let the new couple build a home of shalom and happiness. But someone also has to be watching. From afar. And if something comes up, let them work it out. But up to a point.
Aries -“Friends can’t interfere in a marriage, if one’s spouse is more important than the friends.” You’re right, but you have to see this mutual respect as a child. If you’re a child of divorced parents or a child of a bad marriage, you don’t know what it is. So it’s easy for you to be mislead from the right path. I pity people who have destroyed other people’s marriage -you don’t know what your punishment will be.
I actually think that all of Popa’s posts are sarcastic and cynical. But still fun to read. Keep it up Popa
(sigh…)I am happy to hear the temimus in all of your words.
It is clear,however,that few or none of you have been involved with serious emotional/psychological abuse in the marriage you are/were in…it is far from simple…AND ONE PERSON HAVING HORRIFIC AND CRUEL MIDOS does not automatically make the other partner “selfish”,”egotistical”or equally responsible for the crumbling of the marriage. Some of those victims are traumatized to the degree that they would rather remain alone than risk possibly suffering that kind of degradation ever again.(sigh…sad,but true)
i say this because i know people going thru this…i’m not “stam ploppling”
no eclipse, why would you think that’s what ppl are saying?
i can only speak for myself, but when i talk about both partners being responsible, having good middos and upbringing, etc, i’m talking about a potentially healthy marriage, not one in which one of the partners is unbalanced or otherwise unstable. that is an extreme situation that has to be dealt with in extreme ways.
eclipse, obviously the one who is abusive IS the SELFISH party acting on their own needs to vent and abuse and not getting help to stop and be a good partner in the marriage.
i think frustration levels are up in our generation which leads to fights and ultimately divorce. instant gratification required. everything must be done now and don’t say any extra words in your sentences and i will be doing something else not related to you while i’m listening to you…
by the way Mark Twain, (as well as many others), made his career as a humorist and writer almost exclusively via sarcasm and cynicism, in a humorous way. popas posts often remind me of Twains style (also squeak)
emoticon613:you are 100% correct.problem is not everyone realizes that people who seem very kind are sometimes very cruel when no one’s looking,plus it’s very common to hear ple say things like”well,it takes two to tango” and “there’s his side,her side and the truth”etc.To a survivor of an abusive marriage those comments are frustrating.even a person who isn’t perfect isn’t necessarily the cause of a necessary divorce.at least that’s what i have observed in life thus far…
For those of you from “imperfect” homes (divorces, widows, blended families that aren’t quite functional, mental illness etc) – find a happily married family to use as your guide.
My father died as a young child and my mother made sure that we saw a great, loving couple (my grandparents) interact. We saw how a long, happy marriage is supposed to be. Loving, warm, compromising, and anticipating each others needs. Its important to have good role models, but they don’t have to be your parents.
emoticon613:you are 100% correct.problem is not everyone realizes that people who seem very kind are sometimes very cruel when no one’s looking,plus it’s very common to hear ple say things like”well,it takes two to tango” and “there’s his side,her side and the truth”etc.To a survivor of an abusive marriage those comments are frustrating.even a person who isn’t perfect isn’t necessarily the cause of a necessary divorce.at least that’s what i have observed in life thus far…
Art – your message is quite clear, but I’m not buying. We survive quite nicely 15 of of 30 days, so I still stand with my claim; if trouble erupts over the time away, the time together was most likely the culprit.
how did my post replicate itself?i wish my money would do that!
BP Totty:
Ashrecha that you haven’t heard stories, are completely not into local gossip, or don’t understand people’s cryptic hints!!!
I do agree with the comment, “the time together was most likely the culprit”, in the following sense:
A frequent complaint is: “When I finally make it up to the bungalow, all she does is give me an earful about what a good husband Mr. XYZ is because HE came up on Thursday night. He REALLY cares about his wife and family. Etc. etc.”
artchill-
One of my favorite lines that my wife quoted to me from her Kallah Class-
“Don’t ever brag to anyone else about your husband. If you do feel the need to brag about him- call your mother-in-law.”
Not all marriages are perfect! Not all marriages are imperfect. Many marriages go through the waves, the ups and downs, the fights and make-ups, and the fights can be very harsh at times, and the big “D” word comes up quite often. But people still learn to work on the marriage and on themselves the bigger picture because “the commitment to the marriage, to each other, to the kids and the entire family” is bigger and more important than the issue, the fight and whatever the arguments were about that can be put aside, forgiven and put in the past. Sometimes couples can fight like cats and dogs and then calm down to be unrecognizable and fight no more. It is a choice people can make to make the marriage work. A lot has to do with maturity. A lot has to do with what is best for the family. A lot has to do with having bigger regrets if you break up than if you make it work. A lot has to do with realizing the “fight or argument” is not as important as the marriage.
Mostly, it has to do with the realization that Divorce is “Final”. Many people realize that they can’t afford to divorce and that is like throwing a big bucket of ice water in their face, forcing them to look at the reality of the situation and basically growing up to realize how immature and selfish each party has become. Another issue which we used to kid about was the kids. When we got into it, I would kid around with my husband and tell him I didn’t trust him to raise my kids so I have to stay with him. We also joked that we put too much effort into our house and neither wanted to give it up so we were stuck with each other. My friends used to joke that they would get divorced but “neither one wanted the kids” so they were forced to stay together.
Everyone has some issues in their marriage that they either choose to look away from or work on at some point or another. Since I work with the at-risk population and actually had a column in a local paper title “Parents at Risk”, my motto is “Make your marriage work for the sake of your kids” and if you really can’t then “make your divorce work for the sake of the kids” because you “chose” to bring kids into this world and you are obligated to put them at the top of your priority list.
Mark Twain occassionally wrote letters with such acid that turned the paper brown. Before you compare my posts to said writer, ask yourself- has the background color of this site ever changed from white?
squeak
i was referring to style, not content
I was actually expecting more of a mischievous response or prank from you. Something like turning the background brown, for instance.
sorry to disappoint you, but im no squeak, my verbal sparring skills are more mundane
verbal? how about programming skills?
From someone who’s been changing the “member” tags to prank many posters, I thought you’d go into the site settings and…. nm.
Yeah but Squeak, you no longer have Chanan Bisha. I really liked that one.
not sure what nm means, but changing the names is easy, the software is set up for it already. i havent messed with names for a long time. any new name changes since then, you can probably blame 42
Squeak. Interestingly, as I read your last post. The background is BLUE, while all others are white. What kind of acid are you using? 🙂
Dr. Pepper:
THAT is one G-R-E-A-T line!!
Blue would imply causticity in a litmus test, not acid (which would be red). Brown is just an expression.
I am familiar with the letters of which you speak. I have a mark twain compilation that included letters and random articles.
My favorite is the one where he makes fun of James Fenimore Cooper. He goes through a story of his to show how absurd the parts are and how inconsistent. There is also a list of the words he misused.
I subsequently read that book by Cooper, but couldn’t enjoy it.
Ok Art, now we’re finding a common ground. So:
what a good husband Mr. XYZ is because, ect… = My answer: become a good husband! If someone else is doing something worth copying, copy it!
This ax swings both ways, so the Mrs are also under the microscope. Know what I find after spending 10 weeks seeing a glimpse into other peoples lives?
There’s no place like home, there’s no place like home, theres…
Of course I see how “good” the other people have it, but I look a little deeper and see:
A) I’ve got it pretty good, and
B) the other folks have their struggles too!
By and large, it boils down to one thing; be a giver and you’ll get lots back in return.
And me not being up on all the gossip? How you think I know how lucky I am?
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