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So much of the discussions are premised on the notion that guys have the upper-hand in shidduchim. But what are examples of how they wield having the upper-hand?
Sometimes they provoke their date into hitting them, then they shoot them dead, and claim self defense, and get off!!!!
Example #1: I have never heard of a boy writing a shidduch resume.
Example #2: A boy can reject a girl without the girl ever even knowing that the match was suggested in the first place.
Example #3: The girl’s family has to come up with the money to pay for most of the wedding expenses.
They can insist on marrying girls with specific maalos, including, but not limited to, midos, looks, yichus, intact family, geographic desirability, earning potential, etc.
JF02 – I and many of my male friends have shidduch resumes. Also, I personally have been suggested to girls many times before they were suggested to me, and B’H, I’m not even the slightest bit an outstanding situation. As for your third example, that has absolutely nothing to do with dating.
DY – Girls can insist on that too if they wanted.
Yes– for instance, every boy seems to want a “stick”.
Jf2, I’m not sure why #2 is to the boy’s advantage.
I think #3 was always the case. Maybe a case could be made for post wedding expenses.
JF02: My mom deals with a lot of shidduchim. I’d say that 40% of her resumes are from guys.
I have to say, though, that she has only once ever had a guy send in a photo, while on the other side I can count three girls who have not. (I know the numbers because she mentioned them as yotzei min haklal. The guy and one of the girls are married- not to each other.)
Curiosity, regarding the first two points, I’m just telling you what the standard is in my community. It may be different where you live. Regarding the third, you say it has nothing to do with dating. But that was not the OP’s question. The question is regarding “shidduchim”, and last I checked, the wedding is very much a part of shidduchim. Incidentally, I know couples whose engagements have broken off over wedding related arguments (how “nice” does the affair have to be, who’s paying for what, etc). My husband had a broken engagement before he met me, and although the wedding planning wasn’t the only or even the primary reason the engagement broke, it was definitely a major issue.
DY – Girls can insist on that too if they wanted.
I meant successfully.
#1 Me and all my dating friends (guys) have resumes.
#2 A girl can reject first too, but I think it has more to do with girls appearing more outwardly individualistic.
#That very much depends on what circles and the specific families, more than the the general shidduchim parsha. That has more to do with families than the boy or girl themselves.
Also, most guys do not want a “stick”. That’s a stupid generalization. Most guys want a girl they’re attracted to and that’s how it should be. I don’t know that heavier girls have a harder time getting married. I don’t know why we don’t give in pictures at all/as much as girls do, but I don’t think most guys would care if it was requested.
Sadly, the shidduch scene is stacked against women. There are more available women than men, which is a big problem, and men usually date women younger than them, another contributing factor.
Hangups over appearance, weight, money, and other factors play out on both sides, but it is true in both the general and frum societies that heavier women are often not given even the time of day, even by heavy guys, which I find ridculous. I try to eat well and keep moderately active (walking places, etc.), but am still on the zaftig size, and would want a shidduch with someone who could relate to my experiences and whatnot. But many men sadly don’t think the way I do. (OTOH, I’m a farshtukene feminist who davens monthly in a partnership minyan, and who holds like that shana u’pirush Rav Uziel, zt”l (Has ve Halilah) le ma’aseh on things like dayanot, abortion, etc., so what good is my opinion?)
Boys have lists of resumes and can go out with a girl whenever he wants usually. Girls wait months for one boy to choose their resume out of the many that they have to even get a date. Girls usually say yes to boys who say yes to them because they can’t afford to be too picky because who knows when the next date will come
i hope so
It should be assur to:
ask to see a picture of either party
ask anything about weight or clothing size for either party
ask if the boy or girl is good-looking (that is very subjective)
ask how much money the parents make and what the grandparents do
ask ANYTHING that does not speak to the personality and middos of the person being redt.
I don’t want to hear the boy or girl is the “best.” Everyone cannot be the best. Some have to be merely terrific, and that is wonderful. Some have to be average, and guess what – they deserve to find their basherter also.
I am sick and tired of the shidduchim games that are played. Let our young people just MEET and decide for themselves if there is a potential there. It is time to stop investigating families to death (and things often do not come out anyway, even from all the research), making foolish judgments over ridiculous minutiae, and preventing boys and girls who are possibly well-suited to each other from ever meeting, based on naarishkeiten.
@oomis Physical appearances DO matter, why should someone waste time on a date with someone they couldn’t be married to?
OI: I think oomis’s point is that asking about appearance doesn’t do anything. Plenty of people you may not consider attractive are happily married to guys who think they’re gorgeous. If they’d called you for a reference to see if she’s pretty, what would have happened?
Also, physical attraction can follow emotional attraction. Your assessment of a date’s looks at first sight may differ from your assessment after you’ve gotten to know them a little.
I am pretty sure we’ve had this argument a few years ago, the last time I was active in the CR. If someone wants to dig up the thread, be my guest. Or we could just get into it all over again.
If boys didnt have the upper hand, would otherwise rational, intelligent and normal people promise money they dont have to a boy they never met, so that he would consider dating their daughter?
Apashutayid: they don’t promise anything until their daughter decides she wants to marry him. They say that if he turns out to be The One, then they will be willing to discuss how much they are willing to discuss his salary.
writersoul: That’s a din in the reference, not in the dater. People should be careful how they give over information, but a person can ask in an appropriate manner.
jewishfeminist: “Also, physical attraction can follow emotional attraction.” Not to generalize, but that is why girls don’t need a picture and guys do. It’s very rare for a guy to marry a girl he didn’t consider in the realm of attractive on the first date.
jewishfeminist02 –
Example #1: I have never heard of a boy writing a shidduch resume.
I did, my wife still keeps it in a drawer somewhere. All the shadchanim I dealt with assumed I had one, indicating that as far as they’re concerned all guys do.
Example #2: A boy can reject a girl without the girl ever even knowing that the match was suggested in the first place.
And saying yes to a girl only to be rejected is in what way better? Mima nafshach, if he says yes and she says no then she is the deciding factor. If he says yes and she also does, then they date and, again, she is the deciding factor. Only if he says no first does the question of the shidduch going ahead or not rest on his decision. In other words, looks to me like it’s decidedly in her favour.
Example #3: The girl’s family has to come up with the money to pay for most of the wedding expenses.
Depends on the families and how they agree to split it, something that in my family’s experience only takes place after the couple are already engaged. So how does that affect the actual dating process?
Interjection: It is clear you do not have daughters (or sons) in shidduchim.
OI: No, it’s not a din in the reference. Are you expecting people to lie? Because if you expect the reference to ALWAYS say that the girl is pretty in some “nice” manner, what’s the point in asking anyway if you know what answer you’re going to get?
You can tell from answers if she’s gorgeous or “pretty” in a “nice” manner. I’m not expecting people to lie. Nor do I ask a reference if a girl is good looking. I do ask if she dresses well, though. I assume that someone who is suggesting a girl for me, knows me well enough to suggest a girl that is within the realm of what I consider attractive.
OI: But you’re missing the point- of course you can ask, and of course they can respond nicely, but is their standard of beauty the same as yours? Maybe someone who to them looks like she just stepped out of a fashion magazine is just really not your type? Maybe someone they would dismiss as “ehhh” is actually exactly what you’re looking for?
ws: Sorry, if I’m not being clear. You are correct in that people have different standards and do generally try to be “nice”, which is why I don’t trust a random reference, and (partly) why I don’t ask the question. But I DO ask the person initially suggesting the shidduch to me. It is usually mentioned before I can ask and generally I know how to gauge the accuracy of their description because I know the person redting. BUT if her looks aren’t brought up, you can be sure that I WILL ask. You are right that in terms of pretty, gorgeous, beautiful, cute it’s all very vague and objective, but if a girl is 1xx+ lbs, that’s not objective, and I won’t go out with her, or if she’s above 5″x I won’t go out with her either and I’ll definitely ask about height.
Um, yeah, weight (not so much height, if you’re short and you don’t want someone taller than you) is pretty subjective. I know girls (around the same height) who weigh about the same amount. One looks the way you’d picture someone who weighs that amount, and one looks very thin. It’s all in the build.
And when you say 1xx, does that mean that if she weighs more than 100 lb she’s overweight? I’m going to assume not, but if so that’s just disturbing.
And I’ll be honest with you and say that no, I don’t think that the way you’re doing it is really right. The height thing I can get (and girls are asking that too- girls don’t want short guys any more than you want a tall girl), but asking weight? That is WAY overboard. As I said above, there are girls who are 120 lb and look heavier (if they’re naturally slim) and girls who are 140 and look gorgeous.
I’ll also be honest and say that a lot of this frustration is because I’m struggling with my weight and not particularly gorgeous and I’m still holding out the hope that my chosson’s (eventually) not going to care like that and potentially nix me before he starts, but it seems to be a bit too much to ask.
And to get away from my angst for a quarter of a second to wrap up, why don’t you meet her to figure out if she’s pretty- much more direct and non-subjective?
To be clear, I would never ask for a number in terms of weight ever. Sorry, if that was unclear, I would only ask height. 1xx, does not mean 100 lbs, it meant fill in that last two digits. I agree with everything you say about different weights looking different, it’s like that for guys too. Even guys of the same height, same weight, totally different look.I appreciate your honesty and I understand where you’re coming from.
I’ll counter with my honesty, and say that I’m short and slim. I am tired of hearing people (the women in my family mainly who are heavy for the most part) tell me that I shouldn’t judge based on external appearances and I should look inside. I do very much look inside but I couldn’t marry a girl much bigger than me. I care so much about middos and inner beauty, but don’t I have the right to be the Big Man on Campus in my own home?I’m tired of always being smaller and shorter than everyone I am around and I’d like it if in my own home I was the bigger person. I don’t mean to be harsh, but telling me to throw looks out the window annoys me so much. I guess I have my own place of angst too.
You should not worry about being nixed before it starts because most guy often admit that they’re perfectly fine with heavier girls and prefer girls who don’t look like supermodels. It’s just the same as being nixed for going to XYZ seminary. I do meet girls to see if she is pretty in my eyes, and I’ve gone on dates with girls who had at least 80+ lbs on me and I was a gentleman and a joy all the way through.
ObstacleIllusion: G-d only help the woman who ever marries you.
wow! Where are you people dating? I want in on that! I’m a pretty good guy, good learner I’d say, tall, not heavy, have been told many times that I’m a good looking guy, known to have a great personality and always a blast at simchas, (and clearly humble 😉 lol) and I do NOT have a whole list of girls lined up for me (although I did before I was on the market, somehow that all changed once I officially put myself out there lol) I was told to make a resume, I’ve been on the market for about 7 months now, and only went out with 2 girls, I have been told about girls and rejected before going out, and I can almost never turn down the girl once we’ve gone out (don’t want to make her feel bad) so I guess I’m a yotzi min haklal, because I don’t see any upper hand on my part.
acron, I should certainly hope so, it’s a z’chus to be able to recognize siyata d’shamaya in our day to day 😛
OI: “Big Man on Campus” is not, shall we say, the most, um, PC way to put it. The fact is, you should probably not walk into marriage expecting that. Walk into it expecting a partnership where you and your wife are on equal footing. Just for the sake of your future shalom bayis.
Don’t worry about the height. I’m not trying to be mean, but if the girl is the same height as you she’ll probably reject you first. Personally, I’m short and I’m not expecting (nor would I necessarily be comfortable with) a six foot guy, but just as guys have standards they like, so do girls. (And I DEFINITELY know very short girls who married very tall guys, so the people with the problems are the short guys and the tall girls- though admittedly to a lesser extent. My sister is 5’8″ and I wonder what’s gonna happen with her.) If you’re looking for a girl a bit shorter than you then fine, she’ll come along eventually.
That one I’ll admit makes sense.
Achashveirosh/SHalomToYou: And… YOU’RE the one bringing this up? Weird…
I remember having to restrain myself from commenting on that one.
My BMOC reference was tongue in cheek. But my point would be that everyone understands when a girl wants a taller guy but everyone hates on the guy who wants a skinnier girl.
OI: There is not much difference for a guy to tell the shadchan he wants a skinny girl than for him to tell the shadchan that he wants a blonde girl.
OI: Everyone will understand when you say you want a shorter girl…
For better or for worse, the predominant image in people’s minds is that while height is inborn and genetic (barring HGH and malnutrition), weight is something that is the other person’s fault. When you are rejecting a heavy girl, people feel, you are blaming or condemning her for something which may or may not be her fault. It’s like the popular image is that a heavy girl has something wrong while a short guy has whatever kind of genetics. Whether this is 100% logical isn’t the point- it has some truth in some planes and therefore many people feel uptight about it. I know I do, sometimes…
I am (only slightly) taller than my husband. Before we met, I had only ever dated taller guys and he had only ever dated shorter girls. I don’t think he ever imagined he would marry someone taller than him, and if he had been working with a shadchan she never would have suggested me for that reason. But guess what? The height thing doesn’t bother either one of us.
Open your mind a little. You never know what opportunities you’re missing out on by insisting on a very specific physical profile.
jewishf- im usually very against the whole looks thing as being the koveia for a date, but im really hearing mr illusion here. before anyone decides im lyin, th oilam should know that my wife is about an inch taller than me and i couldnt care less. that being said, this guy is expressing a different problem. i dont think its the fact that he needs to be BMOC, rather that after dealing his whole life being the smallest and probably the picked on dude in class (i commiserate, i was always the fatty) he wants someone to see him not as the little shrimp to be swirlied, but as someone to be looked up to and respected, and it happens to mean to him that she has to be smaller than him. he doesnt really mean skinny lie model perfect, and thats not even the nekuda. it just happens to be the same thing other people want for different reasons.
Lakewoodite: I don’t agree with that, because height/weight tend to be tied with emotional strings as opposed to hair color, which can be changed easily. But let’s say all demands regarding physical attributes are the same, then asking for a girl with blond hair is just like asking for a guy to be a with a specified height range.
writersoul: It’s funny you say that because sometimes I get the feeling that I’m being judged because of my height and that there is something wrong with me. Woooow, guys have feelings too. I’m not saying you judge short guys, but I get that feeling from girls sometimes. It’s like what did you want me to? I got the short end of the gene stick. 🙂
jfem: I’ve gone out with girls taller than me, some even 3 inches taller than me, all of the nos came from them.
Thank you Toi, that is definitely part of what I’m trying to say. I guess, in this aspect guys do not have the upper hand in shidduchim when making reguests regarding the date’s physical appearance, as we get labeled shallow and unrealistic, while girls can make demands from here to tomorrow (height, weight, hair, glasses) and no one says a thing.
I understand why ObstacleIllusion wants a shorter girl, and I do respect that he has an actual reason for it while most guys don’t. But I think my point still stands, and I’m sure there are girls out there who are under 5 ft who wouldn’t “look up to him” and girls who are 5’10 who would. If what he wants is a specific relationship dynamic, that doesn’t have to depend on physical attributes.
OI: It’s hard for me, personally, to judge short guys when I’m 5’2″ :). I’m just pointing out that girls do have feelings just like guys do, and point is absolutely taken that guys have feelings like that. Happens to be my family was just talking about this and I’m actually the one who got the short end of the gene stick- both of my parents are much taller than I am (NOT a common occurrence) and as I mentioned, my sister is 5’8″.
Point is, I was NOT trying to be mean. I was just pointing out (as I’m sure, upon reflection, that you knew already, so it was probably redundant) what girls think on the matter. And yes, jfem02, there are definitely girls who marry shorter guys (usually tall girls, like one woman I know who said, “What was I supposed to do? Marry someone taller than me and have my kids be giants?” Really tongue in cheek, but point taken), but not that many, which means that you and your future kallah are going to be absolutely made for each other :). I hope I don’t seem mean or snarky.
ws: I think you’ve summed up this conversation very well.
OI: Sounds great :). My only issue was really the weight thing, but I’ll shut up about it.
Everything about appearances has to work for that particular couple. If there is a boy who wouldn’t be able to think a brunets is beautiful then do all brunets a favor and don’t marry one. Also a boy has to see the girl before he marries her because a boy is very rarely able to look past appearances whereas girls are that actually gives girls the upper hand because it gives you more options. the other thing that evens the score is that each boy must marry a girl (l’halacha) so in order for a boy to get married a girl also has to.
frum girl 101 –
a boy is very rarely able to look past appearances whereas girls are
We’ve been through this one before…
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/struggles-with-guys#post-468363
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/struggles-with-guys#post-468374
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/struggles-with-guys#post-468436
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/struggles-with-guys/page/2#post-468589
“If there is a boy who wouldn’t be able to think a brunets is beautiful then do all brunets a favor and don’t marry one.”
It’s impossible to know that you would NEVER find ANY brunette beautiful. Yes, everyone has their preferences, but sometimes that goes out the door when you meet someone and you realize how beautiful they truly are in your eyes even though it’s something you never thought you would appreciate. I have a “thing” for blue eyes, but I nevertheless had a serious relationship with a Sephardi. And every guy I ever dated until I met my husband was on the heavy side because I liked that look. My husband is average weight (and yes, he does have blue eyes, and incidentally he is also very into health and fitness, which I was missing out on with the others and really admire in him).
ws: I did not mean to shut you up, I’ve truly enjoyed discussing this with you. You write excellently. I just felt bad haranguing you and the rest of the oilam, without adding any new insights.
jfem- i agree, but those who were taller were always the ones stuffing his head down the toilet.
He never said that…
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