Do women need to stay up all night of Shavuos?

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Controversial Topics Do women need to stay up all night of Shavuos?

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 70 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1724580

    Mattan Torah was to both men and women (ko somar l’bais yaakov etc)

    All the bnei yisroel slept in for mattan Torah.

    Presumably, also the women.

    Therefore women should also stay up all night (learning the torah related to her mitzvos or torah she’biksav with meforshim etc).

    Is this a new chumrah I should start this year? There is enough time to campaign this to hundreds of women worldwide!.

    #1724605

    Please do. let us know how it goes. Although it might come under the general category of mitzvas asay shehhazmon grama.

    #1724606

    Joseph
    Participant

    The women need to sleep to properly be able to serve the menfolks the meals and keep the house clean.

    #1724609

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    There is no issur to do this. But judging on Girsa Deyankuta, this was never done.

    #1724610

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Women don’t need a kapara for sleeping in. They do it every day when their husbands are out at the 5:30 shiur or the 6:00 shacharis. Ever been in a Jewish bakery before 7:00 AM? Only male customers!

    (HT: PBA)

    #1724646

    lakewhut
    Participant

    No, but some feminists do it, for attention.

    #1724647

    laskern
    Participant

    RG, No, they don’t have the mitzva of limud torah. Maybe according to you women should have a minyan and lain?

    #1724652

    laskern
    Participant

    According to the Kol Bo women are exempt from dependent mitzvos because their first responsibility is to the husband and families. Therefore it is wrong to deprive them from sleep.

    #1724653

    laskern
    Participant

    I am up for Shavuos but not the whole night. I don’t like to daven like a zombie.

    #1724659

    The chasid
    Participant

    Yes to take care of the children that are crying at night

    And by the way women should maybe start going to Kollel

    #1724661

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Go for it!

    Who’s going to take care of the kids in the morning?

    #1724719

    Chossid
    Participant

    “I am up for Shavuos but not the whole night. I don’t like to daven like a zombie.”

    Don’t mean to attack, but aren’t you davaning to Hashem, which he himself would want you to stay up all night?
    Where does feeling like a zombie come into the picture?

    If your excuse is because it’s hard to stay up then fine, but blaming it on Davaning doesn’t make sense. (Unless there is some heter)

    All this assuming you are a male

    #1724745

    laskern
    Participant

    You call yourself a chosid, don’t you think it is important to daven with some kavonoh? They also have a later minyan, so obviously not everyone is up for the whole night.

    #1724738

    laskern
    Participant

    Chosid, How old are you? Obviosly I said that from my experience of being up the whole night and at davenen I fell asleep and was unable to concetrate. It says אל תדין את חבירך עד שתגיע למקומו.

    #1724737

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Midwesterner: Not sure if you are married or ever had kid, but if by some chance you were and someone asked your wife if she “slept in” every AM, she would probably assume the person posing the question was either clueless or otherwise dysfunctional. Feeding a newborn baby at all hours of the night and early AM, getting many kids up and dressed in the AM, preparing their breakfast and in some cases packing a lunch, and getting themselves dressed and dropping off the kids at school or the bus stop and to work means they are up and about early AM. Most women would love to run off to minyan at 6 AM and leave all the above to their husbands.

    #1724751

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “The women need to sleep to properly be able to serve the menfolks the meals and keep the house clean.“

    I thought that was the goytas job

    #1724765

    lakern: I understand why you do what you do. at least 50% of my shul does the same thing, stay up learning then go home and sleep for a few hours and come back for the minyan scheduled for our regular starting time. Maybe choaaid ahould listen to some of Rabbi Dovid Orlofsky’s speches. There is one in which he refers to it as the least insprired shachris of the year for the exact reason that you cited.

    #1724761

    charliehall
    Participant

    It isn’t even necessary for men to stay up all night. The minhag only got serious in the late middle ages when coffee and tea arrived in the Middle East and Europe, allowing caffeine ingestion to allow Jews to stay awake!!! 😉

    #1724776

    Joseph
    Participant

    Charlie: What is your source for the contention that staying up all night does not predate the advent of coffee and tea?

    If I refer you to seforim hakedoshim that predate the popularization of coffee/tea, that state the minhag to stay up all night, will you retract your mistaken notion?

    #1724785

    Chossid
    Participant

    laskern
    Sorry didn’t mean to get personal.
    Your wording through me off. “Zombie” as your personal comfort
    But yes If it’s ממעיט your kavona, there is probably a some heter. Also I’m not sure if the minhag was (I think minhag arizal) was expected by everyone.

    Yes I do care about davaning bekavona and try to, but I’m far from being a perfect Yid.

    The question is what’s more important the night of shvuos staying up all night or davaning with kavona the next day. (I don’t have an answer, maybe I should learn little more about the topics)

    But let’s be honest here would you not go to some party/ wedding etc because it’s going to distribute your kavona?
    I would go to the wedding (Maybe I got to work on myself)

    Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying your a bad guy in any shape or form. It’s just something that we should all think about regarding compromising on עבודת ה for עבודת ה’ but not compromising own daily stuff for עבודת ה’.
    This is not you specifically, it’s everyone INCLUDING ME.

    #1724818

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    I don’t think anyone HAS TO stay up.
    It’s a nice thing to do if you can.
    Old people, young people, sick people cannot.
    Mother’s who must take care of children; cannot.
    Single women, mothers with kids all married – sure why not? Where I live there’s shuirs for women up until 4-5 AM

    #1724887

    Sam Klein
    Participant

    Even Men don’t have a chiyuv to stay up all night. Its just something we took up9n ourselves to make up for klal Yisroel sleeping at matan Torah. But it’s not a chiyuv.

    If it is a chiyuv then please post where in halacha it says every man must stay up shavuous all night.

    #1724853

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Joseph,
    As I’m sure you know, there are three nights a year when there is an “inyan” to stay up all night. Yom Kippur, Hoshana Rabba and Shavuos. The one with the least mekor is Shavuos. It is nevertheless the one which is most kept, possibly due to being the shortest night of those three. What I think charliehall means, is that of course many kedoshim stayed up on Shavuos, but the hamon am only caught on to this when it became more possible.

    lowerourtuition11210, personally I always found Shavuos davening the most inspiring after a ‘whole’ night learninmg (max 2.5 hours in northern England), and stood all the way through and felt very uplifted. It is the only time everyone is there on time and davens together. This was all until I joined my current shul, where very very sadly, they plapper through the davening in very quick time. I sadly go home to sleep. But I happily come back for the ‘main’ minyan with my family.

    #1724985

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    This is the problem. When people make the ikar tafel and the tafel ikar. Of course it’s a nice custom to stay up all night but it’s not a chiyuv of yehareg ve’al yaavor. What’s so difficult to understand? Why does everything have up be so complicated. Of you can stay up, great. If you can’t, no worries.

    #1724992

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Geordie613: You missed an important one. Shvi’i Shel Pesach. The three are Shvi’i Shel Pesach, Shavuot and Hashana Rabba. Never heard YK.

    #1724997

    G613: Yes you are farther north than the USA and EY where haneitz hachama is around 5:30 AM. SO many people (who do not normally stay up all night to learn find it difficult learning from approximately 10:30 PM to 4:30 AM and then daven. Please also remember that in EY they not only say Akdomus but also lein megilas Rus and say yizkor.

    #1725073

    Just to clarify, I am not suggesting that it is a chiyuv for women to stay up learning (portions of Torah which they ARE michuyav to learn such as the halochos of mitzvos that apply to women – which covers many mesechtos, from Mesechta Brochos, Eruvin, Shabbos etc plus all the Shulchan Oruch applicable, plus Teshuvos etc., not to mention the entire Tanach with meforshim).

    I am suggesting it as a chumra/hanhoga tova for extra zechusim and segulos.

    #1725035

    klugeryid
    Participant

    To chosid
    You keep mentioning that there ”may ” be a heter
    What pray tell is the possible issur?
    Going to sleep then? So make a shomer.

    As to the main point im shocked nobody mentioned. The reason to stay up all night is to attone for sleeping late at מתן תורה AND THE FACT THAT THEY WOKE UP EARLY FOR THE חטא העגל.
    the women did not do the עגל so there is no reason for them to stay up all night
    (unless of course you can’t afford a goyta)

    #1725033

    Geordie613
    Participant

    YO, I think it’s in the Mishna Brura, I’ll have a look later.

    Lower…, Nacht generally Shavuos time is around 11pm, alos 1.45 and misheyakir is 2.30 ish. So we have to rush a seuda and get back to shul to learn something before alos.

    #1725048

    It is an “inyan” (not a ye’herag v’al ya’avor, but a minhag Yisroel Torah hee) to stay up all night of Shavuos.

    This is codified l’halacha (yes, golly, there is a source for it no less than – ) Magen Avrohom s. 494, s”k 1, in name of Zohar, and cited in Be’er Hetev s”k 7.

    The Be’er Hetev brings the segulah that whom ever does not sleep at all that night and learns Torah is GUARANTEED to live the year and not have any form of loss.

    Take it for what it is worth, but you don’t get such guarantees with davening with better kavana!

    Anyway, this inyan and segula should apply to women too.

    Babysitting can be arranged for those needing childcare, or, they can stay up at home learning.

    The menfolk are not invalids and can help themselves to coffee and cheesecake in the morning – if they are capable.

    “Loma nigara” – why should women be left out from receiving such a brocha?!

    If everyone agrees, I will blast this out to my contacts and Whatsapp groups to start this trend!

    #1725129

    laskern
    Participant

    RG, learn how to translate something correctly. It doesn’t say to live the year, otherwise one being up yearly will never die. It means he wiil not die suddenly before his time.

    #1725125

    laskern
    Participant

    There is a famous story where the GRA and the Dubner Magid where together Shavous night. The GRA was saying Tikun Leil Shavuos and the Dubner Magid was learning. He was asked, why don’t you say Tikun Leil Shavuos like the GRA? He said I will give you a parable. If a peddler shows samples to his customers, it only makes sense if he has it in a storeroom. The GRA is well learned so can show samples, but I have to acquire my merchandize first by learning.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  laskern.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  laskern.
    #1725152

    Does the rule of “miktzas hayom k’kulo” apply to Shavuos night, that staying up “miktzas ha’layla”is k’kulo? And if someone accidentally fslls asleep, can she make a hashlama on the second night of Shavuos? And in Chutz L’Aretz – we REALLY need to stay up both nights because of s’ feka d’yoma – and not to be mezalzel in a rabbonim – so why not? We can do this!!!

    #1725163

    lasker, I transalate while you add your own commentary. The words in Be’er Hetev are: “yashlim shanoso” – he will complete the year which means he will live the year. You don’t like that because then if he keeps staying up learning, he never dies, so you want to kill him by saying “yashlim shanoso” means he won’t die “suddenly before his time”, but he still might not be “yashlim shanoso”. Ok, go argue with the Be’er hetev.

    #1725205

    laskern
    Participant

    RG, This is quoted from the Ari z’l sefer kakvonos and it does not say yashlim hashono.

    #1725204

    laskern
    Participant

    RG, Yashlim Shanaso means he will complete his alloted years.

    #1725195

    klugeryid – “The reason to stay up all night is to attone for sleeping late at מתן תורה AND THE FACT THAT THEY WOKE UP EARLY FOR THE חטא העגל. the women did not do the עגל so there is no reason for them to stay up all night”

    The Mogen Avrohom makes NO MENTION of chet ha’egel, just states reason of staying up all night is to fix that yidden slept in by mattan Torah. So where did you get such a notion from?!

    #1725212

    laskern
    Participant

    As stated before the women don’t have the mitzva of limud Torah personally but get the mitzva and benefit when they encorage their husbands to stay up.

    #1725242

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    I forgot, also I see many newlyweds at late night shavous shuirs who don’t have kids yet.

    #1725225

    The Magen Avrohom states “yashlim shanoso”, it is quoted here in Netei Gavriel.
    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46443&st=&pgnum=104&hilite=

    You say yashlim shnoso means “his alloted years” – it then should say shanosov (pural).’ Interesting! Does he get this reward fore staying up ONCE in his life – then he is covered?!

    I say it means he will complete THIS YEAR – shnoso, singular. He gets this reward each year he stays up.

    #1725221

    laskern
    Participant

    RG, What the klugeryid says as his name, makes sense. It says by the eigel Shmos 32,6 וישכימו ממחרת

    #1725220

    laskern, women have a qoo% chiyuv to know ALL the halochos related to their mitzvos. That includes a large part of shas, starting from Meseches Brochos, Eiruvin, Shabbos, Pesochim etc. plus all the related Tur and Shulchan Oruch, and shaylos u’teshuvos etc. not to mention the entire Tanach and all the meforshim. Me thinks there is plently of actual Torah that a woman IS mechuyav to learn, besides the mere encouragement of her husband and son to learn.

    #1725215

    laskern
    Participant

    We find a similar idea by Rosh Chodash. It was given to the women as a reward because they were first to contribute to the mishkan but had to be forced to contribute to the eigel.

    #1725301

    LOTR92
    Participant

    joseph, are you saying women are not allowed to stay up or they shouldn’t? If it is not allowed, why not?

    #1725306

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mr. Rebbetzin: The only exception to the halachic discouragement/prohibition for women to learn Torah shebal peh, is Pirkei Avos. No other part of Mishna or Gemora other than simple halachos they’re obligated in.

    #1725313

    laskern
    Participant

    RG, Still the father is not suppose to teach his daughter because of tiflus because their learning is not the same as men, deepening into it. Their learning is as the daf yomi (oberfleflich) general knowledge more emphasis on the halochos. According to Rav Oehlbaum, bichas hatorah is a birchas Hahoduah and not a birchas hamitzva and therefore women are also responsible to say it as they also have a part in Torah.,

    #1725462

    נדרים לה, ב
    אבל מלמד הוא את בניו ואת בנותיו מקרא

    אשה שלמדה תורה יש לה שכר

    מצות עשה להקהיל כל ישראל אנשים ונשים וטף בכל מוצאי שמיטה בעלותם לרגל ולקרות באזניהם מן התורה פרשיות שהן מזרזות אותן במצות ומחזקות ידיהם בדת האמת

    הנשים חייבות ללמוד הלכות הצריכות להן לידע אותן כמו דיני נדה וטבילה ומליחה ואיסור יחוד וכיוצא בהם, וכל מצות עשה שאין הזמן גרמא וכל מצות לא תעשה של תורה ושל דברי סופרים שהן מוזהרות בהן כאנשים
    רמ”א יו”ד סי’ רמו ס”ו

    נראה דכל זה דוקא בזמנים שלפנינו, שכל אחד הי’ דר במקום אבותיו, וקבלת האבות הי’ חזק מאוד אצל כל אחד ואחד להתנהג בדרך שדרכו אבותיו, וכמאמר הכתוב (דברים לב, ז) ‘שאל אביך ויגדך’, בזה היינו יכולים לומר שלא תלמוד תורה ותסמוך בהנהגה של אבותי’ הישרים, אבל כעת בעו”ה קבלת האבות נתרופף מאוד מאוד, וגם מצוי שאינו דר במקום אבותיו כלל. ובפרט אותן שמרגילין עצמן ללמוד כתב ולשון העמים, בודאי מצוה רבה ללמדם חומש וגם נביאים וכתובים ומוסרי חז”ל, כגון מסכת אבות וספר מנורת המאור וכדומה, כדי שיתאמת אצלם עניו אמונתינו הקדושה, דאי לאו הכי עלול שיסורו לגמרי מדרך ה’ ויעברו על כל יסודי הדת ה’
    ספר ליקוטי הלכות להחפץ חיים עמ”ס סוטה כא, ב

    #1725750

    laskern
    Participant

    RG, what is all the proof from מקרא? Where does it say gemora?

    #1725820

    For all the mocking naysayers, know that the Kaf HaChaim s. 494 s”k 8 writes that women DO say Tikun Leil Shavuos!!!

    #1725865

    TomimTihyeh
    Participant

    Minhag Chabad is to stay up learning until Alos Hashachar, and then to go to sleep until regular davening time, so we can daven like chassidim, not tired plapelling.

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 70 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending