Do you think Jewish men should start practicing polygamy again?

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  • #618523
    kadosh123
    Member

    Do you think it should start becoming accepted for orthodox Jewish men to have multiple wives? After all the Torah allows men to take multiple wives. I personally do not think it would be such a good idea but what do you think?

    #1190836
    shuni
    Participant

    I think it’s a great idea but my wife disagrees- can’t think why—-

    #1190837
    Softwords
    Participant

    Only if their wives agree. Now, try to find one that would agree. 🙂

    #1190838
    Avi K
    Participant

    That also means multiple mothers-in-law. LOL

    #1190839
    gofish
    Member

    No.

    Personally, I would rather remain single all my life than be a sister wife.

    Read The 19th Wife to see how well polygamy works in America…

    #1190840
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Huh? Serious?

    #1190841
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    By the way, I don’t thinkit was never considered an ideal situation. The second wife is called a “tzarah”, and the one who is less loved than the other is called “snuah”. The ideal relationship to which our relationship with Hakadosh Baruch Hu is compared is that of one man and one woman.

    #1190842
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Theoretically, there could be 2 benefits to it:

    1. would solve the problem of there being more girls than boys of dating age.

    2. would solve the problem of the working mother- one wife would work to help support the family (as a second income, or so husband can learn) and the other wife can raise the kids.

    But…it would never happen.

    Aside from the fact that it is illegal, the practice does not just depend on the man-and what woman would want to become someone’s second wife? Singles are reluctant to do so even now when the first wife is deceased or divorced, can’t imagine they would want to when she is still in the same house! And what wife would want to share her husband with a “tzara”?

    #1190843
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    WinnieThePooh – Regarding the shidduch crisis, the problem is not a lack of single and divorced men. There are plenty of them! Anyone who thinks the goal in life is to be married and doesn’t care whom she is married to can be married in two seconds. I don’t think there are any single girls who were unable to find someone who wanted to marry them!

    However, most girls nowadays are uninterested in being married simply for the sake of being married, so they certainly would have absolutely no interest in beind someone’s second wife!

    #1190844
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Waiting for Joseph to quote someone out of context on why its the halacha

    #1190845
    thebabbler
    Member

    Sure! And women should have 5 husbands each: 1 to take out the garbage and mow the lawn. A second to get up in the middle of the night for the babies, and wash wet sheets, #3 would prepare the meals, #4 could do all the shopping (not just Home Depot and Lowe’s), and #5 could take care of the finances, and if he wants to know “where all the money went”, he just has to consult Husband #4. After all, women do the work of at least 5 people, no? Now the woman’s job could be TO SPEND PRECIOUS TIME WITH HER CHILDREN, which is what most want to do anyway.

    #1190846
    theprof1
    Participant

    I’M ASSUMING THAT NOBODY HERE HEARD OF THE CHEREM D’RABBEINU GERSHOM NOT ALLOWING MULTIPLE WIVES. EXCEPT FOR SEFARDIM. BUT YOU HAVE TO BE REAL CRAZY TO HAVE 2 WIVES.

    #1190847
    gofish
    Member

    Theprof1, officially the cherem expired already…

    Although most of us (or all of us) live in places where polygamy is illegal, so dinei malchusa prohibits that, very thankfully!

    #1190848
    Joseph
    Participant

    There is a notable discrepancy in the number of single women in shidduchim versus the notably lower number of single men in shidduchim.

    There are women who would agree to be part of a family with multiple wives were that a viable option. There’s even a longtime member of this coffee room who is an older single that posted here she’d be open to the idea.

    It is legal in some countries, including South Africa (which has a frum community and the President of the country himself has multiple wives.) So anyone could visit South Africa to do it should they so desire. And America has accepted tens of thousands of African immigrants with their multiple wives, many of whom live in New York City.

    Additionally, Fundamentalist Mormans have openly been practicing polygamy in the United States for hundreds of years and continue to openly do so today. Court decisions have protected them from being adversely affected from on the books marriage restrictions and even more recent court decisions have made clear the entire US laws precluding polygamy, even though they aren’t enforced and haven’t been in nearly a century, are unconstitutional in any event.

    #1190849
    Joseph
    Participant

    Chacham Ovadia Yosef said he’s in favor of Sephardim again practicing polygamy, as Rabbeinu Gershom’s restriction only applied to Ashkenazim. Teimanim even today have multiple wives (especially some of the older Teimani couples). And there have even been Ashkenazic rabbonim who said the ban (which technically expired per R”G’s takana but was kept in place by the rabbonim of the time post-expiration) could be lifted if the rabbonim today felt it beneficial to do so.

    #1190850
    silentmoishe
    Participant

    Polygamy: One wife too many

    Monagomy: One wife too many

    #1190851
    thebabbler
    Member

    Men who make wife jokes are either not shomer negiah so why get married or simply dont have gratitude.

    #1190852

    For Western Society it would be very good for them to restore Polygamy,for one it would remove so much angst- and precisely therefore they don’t!

    Even previous studies that it harms the children have been proven false

    #1190853
    Health
    Participant

    Kadosh123 -“Do you think it should start becoming accepted for orthodox Jewish men to have multiple wives? After all the Torah allows men to take multiple wives. I personally do not think it would be such a good idea but what do you think?”

    Hey Joe! How did you get a new SN?!? I thought that they still let you post but only with one SN!

    You’re still jealous with the ones in the US that have 2 wives!

    #1190854
    Health
    Participant

    Eclipse -“Now the woman’s job could be TO SPEND PRECIOUS TIME WITH HER CHILDREN, which is what most want to do anyway.”

    I spent a lot of time with my kids, besides doing a lot of chores!

    I’m sorry that you got such a raw deal when you were married!

    Better luck next time!

    #1190855
    Avi K
    Participant

    Winnie, as a matter of fact, there is a certain community that wants to eliminate the cherem as today a family cannot live on only one salary.

    #1190856
    Abba_S
    Participant

    I think Mashiach will come before polygamy is accepted by most Jews.

    #1190857
    thebabbler
    Member

    health: I never mowed the lawn, no grass in NY (just weed) and of course I spent time with my kids,bh, but I could have spent way more time if I wasnt so busy and its basherte but a little sad too. re: better luck, im too busy to even consider it:)

    #1190858
    Health
    Participant

    Eclipse -“health: I never mowed the lawn, no grass in NY (just weed)”

    So mow your weeds!

    “re: better luck, im too busy to even consider it:)”

    That’s very good, because Batoloh Mavy to Shimone!

    I’m not – except –

    I’m still fighting with my ex, after many years.

    #1190860
    Abba_S
    Participant

    Health – I thought divorce stopped the fighting. Let us hope this new year bring Peace on Earth both when dealing with countries and even between husband and wife, or in your case between ex husband and ex-wife so that all fighting will stop. May you also find your true love and get married this year. Let’s also hope the Moshiach comes this year too.

    #1190862
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph – are you serious????!!! Do you seriously think that polygamy would be a good idea? As you yourself wrote, “And there have even been Ashkenazic rabbonim who said the ban (which technically expired per R”G’s takana but was kept in place by the rabbonim of the time post-expiration) could be lifted if the rabbonim today felt it beneficial to do so.” If that is true, then obviously the Rabbanim do NOT feel that it would be a good idea to do so, so nothing more needs to be said.

    And the vast majority of women and girls would NOT be happy if the ban were lifted. I don’t think the fact that one person in the CR wrote that she would be interested can be taken as any kind of proof.

    #1190863
    yehudayona
    Participant

    Nit: Since the Mormon church was established in 1830, less than 200 years ago, it’s incorrect that any kind of Mormons have been practicing polygamy for hundreds of years.

    #1190864
    Health
    Participant

    Abba-S -“Health – I thought divorce stopped the fighting. Let us hope this new year bring Peace on Earth both when dealing with countries and even between husband and wife, or in your case between ex husband and ex-wife so that all fighting will stop. May you also find your true love and get married this year. Let’s also hope the Moshiach comes this year too.”

    Thank you!

    That’s one of the reasons that I never wanted to get divorced!

    I knew that there will be much more fighting.

    #1190865
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    If there are any girls who would rather be someone’s wife than be single (and t/f want the cherem revoked), I think they would change their minds very quickly if their husbands were to take a (second or third) wife AFTER them!!

    Also, maybe it would be a solution to the Shidduch Crisis if there really were a crisis, but the problem is that there is NO crisis since being single is NOT a crisis!

    #1190866
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Thank you!

    That’s one of the reasons that I never wanted to get divorced!

    I knew that there will be much more fighting.”

    Health, I think it usually stops eventually, although it could take until the kids are grown up. It seems to me that most people who get divorced eventually reach the point that they aren’t fighting. Once the kids are grown up, it is much easier, since you don’t have anything (or much) to fight about anymore, and you don’t even have to deal with each other anymore, except for attending the same Simchas at opposite sides of the Mechitza.

    #1190867
    Health
    Participant

    LU -“you don’t even have to deal with each other anymore, except for attending the same Simchas at opposite sides of the Mechitza.”

    Again, here you go making assumptions! I thought I posted to you before about that?!? I’d never, Bl’n, would go to a Simcha where she’d be! As a matter of fact, I’d not go to a Simcha where the person that caused the divorce would be at!

    #1190868
    thebabbler
    Member

    Health, why cant you go and just ignore each other. We dont talk at all but we both go to the kids simchas.

    #1190869
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Health – Usually people do go to their own childrens’ Simchas, although there can be exceptions. In any case, I wrote that as an exception so it doesn’t really take away from the truth of the statement. I suppose technically it would have been more accurate to have written “with the possible exception..” but I don’t think that’s necessary in a case in which it’s true in 99% of cases.

    #1190871
    gofish
    Member

    “Additionally, Fundamentalist Mormons have openly been practicing polygamy in the United States for hundreds of years and continue to openly do so today.”

    That is actually an excellent case study. LDS women, men and children have spoken out over a century, and decades ago about the abuse of women this practice has brought about. Again, read The 19th Wife. There are many desperately unhappy sister wives. There may be a few who are content, but the potential this has for abuse and unhappiness by far outweighs the few that have wholeheartedly accepted it.

    #1190872
    Health
    Participant

    Eclipse -“Health, why cant you go and just ignore each other. We dont talk at all but we both go to the kids simchas.”

    I’d go, but my one Frum son won’t invite them!

    #1190873
    Health
    Participant

    LU -“Health, I think it usually stops eventually, although it could take until the kids are grown up. It seems to me that most people who get divorced eventually reach the point that they aren’t fighting.”

    Is that why you are hesitant to get married – because your parents got divorced & there was a lot of fighting?!?

    #1190874
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Health: “Is that why you are hesitant to get married – because your parents got divorced & there was a lot of fighting?!?”

    Who said I was hesitant to get married??!! Talk about making assumptions!!! One of the most common stereotypes around is that anyone who is older and single is obviously too picky.

    And now I’m just waiting now for you to continue with the rest of the stereotype and go on to assume that obviously the reason I’m not married yet must be that all along I have been refusing to go out with guys who were working, and that is the right thing to do when you are in your 20’s, but at my age it is wrong to give preference to guys in Klei Kodesh.

    (Count the assumptions there: 1. When I was younger, I only wanted someone learning, and refused to go out with anyone who was working. 2. I still only want someone learning and refuse to go out with someone who is working. 3. When you are young, you are only supposed to only go out with guys who are learning. 4. When you are older you are not allowed to give preference to guys in Klei Kodesh.)

    I’m not following your example and assuming you are making those assumptions. I am just saying that they usually go together with your above assumption.

    #1190875
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    just for the record, I only decided that I wanted to get married after my parents got divorced. I was too young yet to get married but old enough to have just started thinking about the concept in theory shortly before they got divorced. I remember wondering why in the world people get married, but then when they got divorced, I realized that theirs was not a “real” marriage and did not represent what marriage is about (something I would never have realized o/w).

    And that is my response to all those posts that people wrote about the effect of divorce on kids!!

    #1190876
    thebabbler
    Member

    Our home was a lot more broken when it was “whole”, and a lot more fixed now that it’s “broken”. Meaning peace, quiet, and smiles, are better than fighting, bitterness, and many tears. A beautiful marriage is the biggest bracha in the world, but if a “get” is in order, it’s sometimes more peaceful in the home afterwards. And yes, I went thru the whole world getting involved: THAT made more problems than the actual divorce, not the divorce itself.

    #1190877
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Thebabbler +1.

    I’ve been trying to understand these posts people have written about the effect of divorce on kids. I thought about it a lot, and looking at myself and my siblings, I really have no idea what they are talking about. I really thought about it, but I really can’t figure out what anyone is talking about. Certainly in terms of the girls.

    I did hear part of a recording once by Dr. Pelkowitz talking about the effect of divorce on kids. He said that it very much depends on the age and gender of the kids. I don’t remember which ages were the most/least problematic. What I do remember is that there it is much more difficult for boys, in particular only or oldest boys.

    L’maaseh, it is not clear-cut if kids are better off if their parents get divorced or stay together. For starters, there are different shitas on it and you can find research in both directions and they both make sense. At the end of the day, it really depends on many, many factors including the ages and genders of the kids, the kids’ personalities, what the parents are like, what the marriage was like, how complicated the divorce is, the custody arrangements, and most importantly how well the parents are able to manage the divorce in a way that is the least complicated for the kids (not bad-mouthing the other parent to or in front of the kids, not using the kids as pawns, keeping the kids out of the arguments, neither discouraging the kids from going to their father’s for Shabbos nor forcing them to do so, making sure their needs are fulfilled, etc.)

    Aside from the fact that every case is different, it is almost impossible to ever know conclusively, if the kids were better or worse off. The only way to do so would be to know how things would have worked out the other way and obviously, you can never know that. You can try to compare families in which the parents chose to get divorced and those in which they didn’t, but it’s really an extremely inaccurate comparison. First of all, every situation is completely different. Second of all, by definition, there are going to be differences to start with between those families that chose divorce and those that didn’t. For one thing, on average, the couples that chose divorce probably had worse marriages to begin with.

    I will just say that personally, in my experience, most of my peers who have the biggest problems come from homes with shalom bayis problems in which the parents did not get divorced, and most of my peers who have divorced parents turned out very well.

    #1190878
    Health
    Participant

    LU -“Who said I was hesitant to get married??!! Talk about making assumptions!!! One of the most common stereotypes around is that anyone who is older and single is obviously too picky.”

    There was a reason for my assumption in your case!

    From your posts you give the appearance that you wouldn’t settle for Stam a guy!

    Did you know that there is a Chiyuv to get married – even for women?!?

    #1190879
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Health – I didn’t realize that being picky = not settling for stam a guy! In that case, everyone I know is picky, Boruch Hashem (and normal too!).

    Actually, you’re wrong about its being a chiyuv for women to get married as I have already pointed out to you. But I am not going to argue with you about it, since I know from experience that there is no point in getting into an argument with you regarding halacha, since you are nowhere near being my “bar plugta” when it comes to halacha. That is true of most people since most people do not have my background in halacha, but the problem with you is that you won’t admit it when you are unable to understand something even after I have explained it to you many times so there is no point in continuing this discussion.

    #1190880
    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Marriage for women is not chiyuv. Rabbis encourage it but it’s not halachically required for women. Men are chiyuv.

    Who wants to marry any stam guy? Maybe LU wants to marry her husband which can be a stam guy but the stam guy who is meant for her.

    #1190881
    Health
    Participant

    LU -“Actually, you’re wrong about its being a chiyuv for women to get married as I have already pointed out to you. But I am not going to argue with you about it, since I know from experience that there is no point in getting into an argument with you regarding halacha, since you are nowhere near being my “bar plugta” when it comes to halacha.”

    You’re wrong again! I learn Shulchun Aruch.

    “That is true of most people since most people do not have my background in halacha, but the problem with you is that you won’t admit it when you are unable to understand something even after I have explained it to you many times so there is no point in continuing this discussion”

    Stop speaking to yourself! What Yeshiva did you learn in?

    If you’re a woman, you’re whole post reeks of Gaivah!

    #1190882
    gofish
    Member

    “Stop speaking to yourself! What Yeshiva did you learn in?

    If you’re a woman, you’re whole post reeks of Gaivah!”

    Geez, the misogyny in the Coffee Room sometimes astounds me. There are actually women who are extremely well versed in halacha and can be way more knowledgeable than you, speaking of gaavah.

    #1190884
    thebabbler
    Member

    It’s supposed to be easier to be more patient with strangers than one’s immediate family:)The coffee room has so many threads where people sometimes forget to respectfully disagree.If one person feels attacked, he/she will naturally get defensive, and so it goes. And everyone is left feeling awful. Can we try for softer communication?

    #1190887
    Health
    Participant

    Gofish -“Geez, the misogyny in the Coffee Room sometimes astounds me. There are actually women who are extremely well versed in halacha and can be way more knowledgeable than you, speaking of gaavah”

    Now that’s possible, but I haven’t seen any here in the CR! But I could tell – that you have a good English vocabulary.

    #1190888
    thebabbler
    Member

    My post was intended elsewhere, so as not to imply any particular person.

    #1190889
    Matan1
    Participant

    Health, what’s the source that women have a chiyuv to get married?

    #1190890
    Joseph
    Participant

    lilmod, I thought I was clear that it is only viable if the rabbonim shlita agreed to it and thought it beneficial. It isn’t being proposed independent of the rabbonim. Also note that this ban was never accepted across all segments of Klal Yisroel. It was primarily Ashkenazim. And Teimanim practice it even in the modern era. Additionally, were it implemented clearly it would only be doable, or even desired, by a small minority of the Klal. If 95% of the people felt it weren’t for them, and only 5% practiced it, then that’s what it would be. I only pointed out that a longtime female poster here advocated it to demonstrate it does have its proponents. And if someone felt there only option for marriage was being one of two wives versus an alternative of being no one’s wife, I could easily see some choosing the former over the latter.

    gofish, clearly the Fundamentalist Mormons implement this badly. I don’t think any sane person would advocate a dozen wives for one husband, as they often do. I only cited them in reference to the practicality of legally practicing this in the United States. Technically they aren’t practicing polygamy in a secular legal sense in the United States since they only have an official marriage certificate with one wife. The others are only what they solemnize as a spiritual marriage. However they’re practicing it they’re doing it openly and aren’t prosecuted for it unless there is underage, non-consent or abuse involved.

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