Does Judaism recognize *marriage* between a man and a woman who are not Jewish?

Home Forums Bais Medrash Does Judaism recognize *marriage* between a man and a woman who are not Jewish?

Viewing 24 posts - 1 through 24 (of 24 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1423078

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    If a typical non-Jewish man and non-Jewish woman get married to each other, do they have a non-Jewish marriage according to Torah?

    Does Judaism acknowledge *marriage* between non-Jewish couples who marry according to their religion?

    Thank you ๐Ÿ™‚

    #1423300

    CS
    Participant

    It depends on how you define marriage.

    #1423303

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yes, the Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach recognizes marriages between two gentiles. This is demonstrated by virtue of the Noachide laws imposing capital punishment upon gentiles who violate their marriages.

    #1423523

    refoelzeev
    Participant

    It should be noted that while the Torah does include marriage amongst non Jews, how they define marriage is irrelevant. A couple is objectively married if they live together as a husband and wife do, even if they didn’t have a ceremony.

    #1423861

    CS
    Participant

    What I meant was yes as in they cannot commit adultery, as Joseph said. But no, as far as being two halves of one neshama neshama reconnecting – like a Jewish marriage

    #1423905

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Thanks… so basically they’re considered married if they live together?

    What about divorce? If they stop living together, are they divorced? What if they’re legally divorced (and not together), but sharing the same house (which happens sometimes when a couple separates/divorces, but they weren’t able to sell the home, or financial/legal technicalities hold up the process, etc.)?

    #1423907

    Defend Chabad
    Participant

    LOL i had the same question a while ago…

    #1423938

    Joseph
    Participant

    Another of the Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach is for them to setup a court system and establish laws. Therefore that legal mechanism can be used to establish what is considered divorced or what not.

    #1423941

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Joseph… thank you! Oh yea, I completely forgot about the court and legal system being a requirement!

    Okay, so marriage would go according to the legal system… thank you; you answered all of my questions here ๐Ÿ™‚

    #1423955

    akuperma
    Participant

    By validity, do you mean, for example, if they would be considered violating the Mitsvos Bnei Noach if they engage in adultery – OR – by validity, do you mean if one of them converts to Judaism do they need they need a divorce for the non-Jewish spouse before they can marry a Jew .

    I believe the answer to the first example is “yes” but Jewish never would have to deal with adultery cases involving non-Jews, and to the second I believe the answer is a female convert does need need any form of divorce from the non-Jewish spouse to marry a Jew (according to halacha, though Dina Malchusa Dina becomes an issue in some cases).

    #1423975

    adocs
    Participant

    So if they stop living together i.e move out, but have not gotten divorced in the civil courts, they would still be considered married under bnei noach rules regarding adultery?

    #1423981

    Joseph
    Participant

    adocs, that’s an interesting question that perhaps someone will answer. But as an aside note that regarding the Bnei Noach laws they are chayiv a capital crime even if it was b’shogeg.

    #1423984

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    As a practical matter, why would yidden care about whether two goyim choose to “marry” however that term is defined under the civil laws of any country. If their belief system contemplates a set of legal requirements similiar or different from kiddushin under halacha, what is it our business? Perahaps after z’man moishiach the sheva mitzvos bnai noach becomes more relevant but until then, what is the enforcement mechanism??
    \

    #1423989

    Joseph
    Participant

    We care because they are required to uphold the Sheva Mitzvos on penalty of death. The Sheva Mitzvos are binding upon them bzman hazeh, including before Moshiach.

    #1423995

    GAON
    Participant

    “if they stop living together i.e move out, but have not gotten divorced in the civil courts, they would still be considered married under bnei noach rules regarding adultery?”

    I recall, there is a ืžืคื•ืจืฉ ื™ืจื•ืฉืœืžื™ in Kedushin that if one officially moves out it’s considered divorced, and it works both ways not only the husband, she can say ” I want out’ and it’s over.
    The same with marriage all you need is to officially move in as as husband and wife and they are considered married. See beginning of Rambam Hilchos Ishus the first halacha.

    #1423996

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    A little insight into where I was coming from in this question…

    I’ve heard a rabbi say that marrying for love is what non-Jews do. If a couple isn’t Jewish, and is in love, then by all means, they can/should get married.

    Wait what?

    ..Why would they need to get married?

    …Does that mean that this rabbi, the Torah, Judaism, acknowledges such a thing as *marriage* between non-Jews?

    So… when you add in further questions and information, you reach the point where I was.. wondering about the basis, or definition, of marriage between individuals who aren’t Jewish.

    Thank you โ˜บ…

    And agreed… it’s not my business what anyone does

    #1424011

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    Judaism does recognize, and require marriage between Bnai Noach. There are two deios of what constitutes such a marriage.
    1. The view of the Rambam (Ishus 1:1)
    When a man takes a woman into his home, and they live together as a couple, that constitutes a marriage.

    ืงื•ื“ื ืžืชืŸ ืชื•ืจื” ื”ื™ื” ืื“ื ืคื•ื’ืข ืืฉื” ื‘ืฉื•ืง ืื ืจืฆื” ื”ื•ื ื•ื”ื™ื ืœื™ืฉื ืื•ืชื” ืžื›ื ื™ืกื” ืœืชื•ืš ื‘ื™ืชื• ื•ื‘ื•ืขืœื” ื‘ื™ื ื• ืœื‘ื™ืŸ ืขืฆืžื• ื•ืชื”ื™ื” ืœื• ืœืืฉื”. ื›ื™ื•ืŸ ืฉื ืชื ื” ืชื•ืจื” ื ืฆื˜ื•ื• ื™ืฉืจืืœ ืฉืื ื™ืจืฆื” ื”ืื™ืฉ ืœื™ืฉื ืืฉื” ื™ืงื ื” ืื•ืชื” ืชื—ืœื” ื‘ืคื ื™ ืขื“ื™ื ื•ืื—”ื› ืชื”ื™ื” ืœื• ืœืืฉื” ืฉื ืืžืจ ื›ื™. ื™ืงื— ืื™ืฉ ืืฉื” ื•ื‘ื ืืœื™ื”

    The Rambam (Melochim 9:8) would additionally require the marriage to be publicly known, just as the divorce is accompanied by an act that publicizes it.

    ื‘ืŸ ื ื— ืฉื™ื™ื—ื“ ืฉืคื—ื” ืœืขื‘ื“ื• ื•ื‘ื ืขืœื™ื” ื”ืจื™ ื–ื” ื ื”ืจื’ ืขืœื™ื” ืžืฉื•ื ืืฉืช ื—ื‘ื™ืจื•. ื•ืื™ื ื• ื—ื™ื™ื‘ ืขืœื™ื” ืขื“ ืฉื™ืคืฉื˜ ื”ื“ื‘ืจ ื•ืืžืจื• ืœื” ื”ืขื ื–ื• ื“ื‘ื™ืช ืขื‘ื“ ืคืœื•ื ื™. ื•ืžืื™ืžืชื™ ืชื—ื–ื•ืจ ืœื”ื™ืชืจื” ืžืฉื™ืคืจื™ืฉื ื” ืžืขื‘ื“ื• ื•ื™ืคืจืข ืจืืฉื” ื‘ืฉื•ืง. ื•ืžืื™ืžืชื™ ืชื”ื™ื” ืืฉืช ื—ื‘ื™ืจื• ื›ื’ืจื•ืฉื” ืฉืœื ื• ืžืฉื™ื•ืฆื™ืื ื” ืžื‘ื™ืชื• ื•ื™ืฉืœื—ื ื” ืœืขืฆืžื”. ืื• ืžืฉืชืฆื ื”ื™ื ืžืชื—ืช ืจืฉื•ืชื• ื•ืชืœืš ืœื”. ืฉืื™ืŸ ืœื”ื ื’ื™ืจื•ืฉื™ืŸ ื‘ื›ืชื‘. ื•ืื™ืŸ ื”ื“ื‘ืจ ืชืœื•ื™ ื‘ื• ืœื‘ื“. ืืœื ื›ืœ ื–ืžืŸ ืฉื™ืจืฆื” ื”ื•ื ืื• ื”ื™ื ืœืคืจื•ืฉ ื–ื” ืžื–ื” ืคื•ืจืฉื™ืŸ:

    2. The Ramban (Bereishis 25:6):
    The Ramban, in addition to the requirements set out by the Rambam above would also require financial commitments on the mans behalf to his wife.

    Divorce:
    Death of a spouse terminates the marriage, as does divorce. By a Ben Noach divorce can be initiated by either husband or wife. Divorce is effected by a “sending” from the house; but this doesn’t mean that a “temporary abandonment” of one spouse by the other constitutes a divorce. According to the above quoted Rambam it would seem that divorce would require the same seriousness of intent as marriage would.

    #1424000

    refoelzeev
    Participant

    <I>Therefore that legal mechanism can be used to establish what is considered divorced or what not.</I>

    Joseph do you have a source for that statement? I don’t believe it’s true. Halacha defines their marriage. Their courts can rule in monitary laws and exact punishment.

    #1424028

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    I wrote a whole long post which seems to have disappeared.

    #1424034

    Joseph
    Participant

    RZ: Perhaps you’re correct. I don’t have a direct source on the narrow point whether the non-Jewish courts/law system has the right to define what constitutes marriage and divorce for non-Jews. Do you have a source stating that Halacha directly defines their marriage/divorce and they cannot define it through their Bnei Noach courts/laws?

    #1424042

    (The markup for italics here is “em” rather than “i.”)

    #1424321

    GAON
    Participant

    Here are the words of the above Yerushalmi in Kedushin, stating there is no divorce “shtar” by a Ben Noach…

    โ€œ ืœืžื“ื ื• ื’ื•ื™ื ืื™ืŸ ืœื”ืŸ ืงื™ื“ื•ืฉื™ืŸ ืžื”ื• ืฉื™ื”ื ืœื”ื ื’ื™ืจื•ืฉื™ืŸ ืจ’ ื™ื•ื“ื” ื‘ืŸ ืคื–ื™ ื•ืจ’ ื—ื ื™ืŸ ื‘ืฉื ืจ’ ื—ื•ื ื” ืจื•ื‘ื” ื“ืฆื™ืคื•ืจื™ืŸ ืื• ืฉืื™ืŸ ืœื”ืŸ ื’ื™ืจื•ืฉื™ืŸ ืื• ืฉืฉื ื™ื”ืŸ ืžื’ืจืฉื™ืŸ ื–ื” ืืช ื–ื” ืจ’ ื™ื•ื—ื ืŸ ื“ืฆืคืจื™ืŸ ืจ’ ืื—ื ืจ’ ื—ื™ื ื ื ื‘ืฉื ืจ’ ืฉืžื•ืืœ ื‘ืจ ื ื—ืžืŸ (ืžืœืื›ื™ ื‘) ื›ื™ ืฉื ื ืฉืœื— ื•ื’ื•’ ืขื“ ืืช ื”’ ืืœื”ื™ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ื‘ื™ืฉืจืืœ ื ืชืชื™ ื’ื™ืจื•ืฉื™ืŸ ืœื ื ืชืชื™ ื’ื™ืจื•ืฉื™ืŸ ื‘ืื•ืžื•ืช ื”ืขื•ืœื ืจ’ ื—ื ื ื™ื” ื‘ืฉื ืจ’ ืคื™ื ื—ืก ื›ืœ ื”ืคืจืฉื” ื›ืชื™ื‘ ื™ื™ ืฆื‘ืื•ืช ื•ื›ืืŸ ื›ืชื™ื‘ ืืœื”ื™ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ืœืœืžื“ืš ืฉืœื ื™ื™ื—ื“ ื”ืงื‘”ื” ืฉืžื• ื‘ื’ื™ืจื•ืฉื™ืŸ ืืœื ื‘ื™ืฉืจืืœ ื‘ืœื‘ื“ ืžื™ืœืชื™ื” ื“ืจ’ ื—ื™ื™ื” ืจื‘ื” ืืžืจื” ื’ื•ื™ื ืื™ืŸ ืœื”ืŸ ื’ื™ื•ืจืฉื™ืŸ ื“ืชื ื™ ืจ’ ื—ื™ื™ื” ื‘ืŸ ื’ื•ื™ ืฉื’ื™ืจืฉ ืืช ืืฉืชื• ื•ื”ืœื›ื” ื•ื ื™ืฉืืช ืœืื—ืจ ื•ื’ื™ืจืฉื” ื•ืื—ืจ ื›ืš ื ืชื’ื™ื™ืจื• ืฉื ื™ื”ืŸ ืื™ืŸ ืื ื™ ืงื•ืจื ืขืœื™ื” ืœื ื™ื•ื›ืœ ื‘ืขืœื” ื”ืจืืฉื•ืŸ ืืฉืจ ืฉืœื—ื” ืœืฉื•ื‘ ืœืงื—ืชื”

    See the perushim on the below link:
    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14142&st=&pgnum=382

    #1424552

    refoelzeev
    Participant

    @joseph

    How marriage occurs with non Jews, Hilchos Ishus 1:1
    ืงึนื“ึถื ืžึทืชึผึทืŸ ืชึผื•ึนืจึธื” ื”ึธื™ึธื” ืึธื“ึธื ืคึผื•ึนื’ึตืขึท ืึดืฉึผืึธื” ื‘ึผึทืฉึผืื•ึผืง ืึดื ืจึธืฆึธื” ื”ื•ึผื ื•ึฐื”ึดื™ื ืœึดืฉึผื‚ึธื ืื•ึนืชึธื”ึผ ืžึทื›ึฐื ึดื™ืกึธื”ึผ ืœึฐืชื•ึนืšึฐ ื‘ึผึตื™ืชื•ึน ื•ึผื‘ื•ึนืขึฒืœึธื”ึผ ื‘ึผึตื™ื ื•ึน ืœึฐื‘ึตื™ืŸ ืขึทืฆึฐืžื•ึน ื•ึฐืชึดื”ึฐื™ึถื” ืœื•ึน ืœึฐืึดืฉึผืึธื”.”:
    Before the giving of the Torah, it would be that if a man happened upon a woman in the marketplace and they wanted to marry each other, he would bring her into his house and consummate the marriage between them privately, and she would be his wife.

    How divorce works with non jews Hilchos Melachim 9:8
    ื•ึผืžึตืึตื™ืžึธืชึทื™ ืชึผึดื”ึฐื™ึถื” ืึตืฉืึถืช ื—ึฒื‘ึตืจื•ึน ื›ึผึดื’ึฐืจื•ึผืฉืึธื” ืฉืึถืœึผึธื ื•ึผ ืžึดืฉึผืึถื™ึผื•ึนืฆึดื™ืึถื ึผึธื” ืžึดื‘ึผึตื™ืชื•ึน ื•ึดื™ืฉืึทืœึผึฐื—ึถื ึผึธื” ืœึฐืขึทืฆึฐืžึธื”ึผ. ืื•ึน ืžึดืฉึผืึถืชึผึตืฆึตื ื”ึดื™ื ืžึดืชึผึทื—ึทืช ืจึฐืฉืื•ึผืชื•ึน ื•ึทืชึผึตืœึถืšึฐ ืœึธื”ึผ. ืฉืึถืึตื™ืŸ ืœึธื”ึถื ื’ึผึตืจื•ึผืฉืึดื™ืŸ ื‘ึผึดื›ึฐืชึธื‘. ื•ึฐืึตื™ืŸ ื”ึทื“ึผึธื‘ึธืจ ืชึผึธืœื•ึผื™ึด ื‘ึผื•ึน ืœึฐื‘ึทื“. ืึถืœึผึธื ื›ึผึธืœ ื–ึฐืžึทืŸ ืฉืึถื™ึผึดืจึฐืฆึถื” ื”ื•ึผื ืื•ึน ื”ึดื™ื ืœึดืคึฐืจืฉื ื–ึถื” ืžึดื–ึผึถื” ืคึผื•ึนืจึฐืฉืึดื™ืŸ:
    And when is one of their married women considered like one of our divorcees? From the time he expels her from his house and sends her off on her own, or from when she leaves on her own from his property. For the Gentiles do not have a written bill of divorce. and the matter is not dependent upon him alone. Rather, whenever either he or she wishes to separate, they (may) separate.

    What the non Jewish courts do, ibid halacha 14
    ื•ึฐื›ึตื™ืฆึทื“ ืžึฐืฆึปื•ึผึดื™ืŸ ื”ึตืŸ ืขึทืœ ื”ึทื“ึผึดื™ื ึดื™ืŸ. ื—ึทื™ึผึธื‘ึดื™ืŸ ืœึฐื”ื•ึนืฉืึดื™ื‘ ื“ึผึทื™ึผึธื ึดื™ืŸ ื•ึฐืฉืื•ึนืคึฐื˜ึดื™ื ื‘ึผึฐื›ึธืœ ืคึผึถืœึถืšึฐ ื•ึผืคึถืœึถืšึฐ ืœึธื“ื•ึผืŸ ื‘ึผึฐืฉืึตืฉื ืžึดืฆึฐื•ึนืช ืึตืœึผื•ึผ. ื•ึผืœึฐื”ึทื–ึฐื”ึดื™ืจ ืึถืช ื”ึธืขึธื.
    What must they do to fulfill their requirement regarding the Law of Justice? They have to set up magistrates and judges in each district to judge the people with regard to these Six Commandments; and they must issue warnings (about them) to the people.

    The Kesef Mishnah there brings another peshat, but no mention that they can decide what constitutes marriage. Sounds pretty objective.

    #1426811

    Joseph
    Participant

    Okay, so what we’ve established is…

    Gentiles are considered married anytime a man and woman are living together, regardless of any formal marriage certification under gentile laws.

    Gentiles are considered divorced from each other whenever one of the two decides to leave the others home.

    The above means that a gf/bf (that aren’t married under the law) would be considered married under the Sheva Mitzvos.

    Violation of the marriage carries capital punishment.

    Question: Regarding the last point, does violating the marriage mean, like by us Yidden, that the violation occurred with a married woman? IOW, a married woman with any male not her husband means both of them are guilty. But a married man with an unmarried woman does not constitute guilt. Or by gentiles does even a married man with an unmarried woman constitute guilt?

    My guess (without having looked it up) is that only the former constitutes guilt. (IOW, similar to how it works, in this regard, by Yidden.)

Viewing 24 posts - 1 through 24 (of 24 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending