December 10, 2017 8:10 am at 8:10 am #1423078
If a typical non-Jewish man and non-Jewish woman get married to each other, do they have a non-Jewish marriage according to Torah?
Does Judaism acknowledge *marriage* between non-Jewish couples who marry according to their religion?
Thank you 🙂December 10, 2017 11:04 am at 11:04 am #1423300CSParticipant
It depends on how you define marriage.December 10, 2017 11:04 am at 11:04 am #1423303
Yes, the Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach recognizes marriages between two gentiles. This is demonstrated by virtue of the Noachide laws imposing capital punishment upon gentiles who violate their marriages.December 10, 2017 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #1423523
It should be noted that while the Torah does include marriage amongst non Jews, how they define marriage is irrelevant. A couple is objectively married if they live together as a husband and wife do, even if they didn’t have a ceremony.December 10, 2017 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #1423861CSParticipant
What I meant was yes as in they cannot commit adultery, as Joseph said. But no, as far as being two halves of one neshama neshama reconnecting – like a Jewish marriageDecember 10, 2017 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #1423905
Thanks… so basically they’re considered married if they live together?
What about divorce? If they stop living together, are they divorced? What if they’re legally divorced (and not together), but sharing the same house (which happens sometimes when a couple separates/divorces, but they weren’t able to sell the home, or financial/legal technicalities hold up the process, etc.)?December 10, 2017 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1423907Yechi HamelechParticipant
LOL i had the same question a while ago…December 10, 2017 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #1423938
Another of the Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach is for them to setup a court system and establish laws. Therefore that legal mechanism can be used to establish what is considered divorced or what not.December 10, 2017 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #1423941
Joseph… thank you! Oh yea, I completely forgot about the court and legal system being a requirement!
Okay, so marriage would go according to the legal system… thank you; you answered all of my questions here 🙂December 10, 2017 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #1423955akupermaParticipant
By validity, do you mean, for example, if they would be considered violating the Mitsvos Bnei Noach if they engage in adultery – OR – by validity, do you mean if one of them converts to Judaism do they need they need a divorce for the non-Jewish spouse before they can marry a Jew .
I believe the answer to the first example is “yes” but Jewish never would have to deal with adultery cases involving non-Jews, and to the second I believe the answer is a female convert does need need any form of divorce from the non-Jewish spouse to marry a Jew (according to halacha, though Dina Malchusa Dina becomes an issue in some cases).December 10, 2017 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #1423975adocsParticipant
So if they stop living together i.e move out, but have not gotten divorced in the civil courts, they would still be considered married under bnei noach rules regarding adultery?December 10, 2017 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #1423981
adocs, that’s an interesting question that perhaps someone will answer. But as an aside note that regarding the Bnei Noach laws they are chayiv a capital crime even if it was b’shogeg.December 10, 2017 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #1423984GadolhadorahParticipant
As a practical matter, why would yidden care about whether two goyim choose to “marry” however that term is defined under the civil laws of any country. If their belief system contemplates a set of legal requirements similiar or different from kiddushin under halacha, what is it our business? Perahaps after z’man moishiach the sheva mitzvos bnai noach becomes more relevant but until then, what is the enforcement mechanism??
\December 10, 2017 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #1423989
We care because they are required to uphold the Sheva Mitzvos on penalty of death. The Sheva Mitzvos are binding upon them bzman hazeh, including before Moshiach.December 11, 2017 12:08 am at 12:08 am #1423995GAONParticipant
“if they stop living together i.e move out, but have not gotten divorced in the civil courts, they would still be considered married under bnei noach rules regarding adultery?”
I recall, there is a מפורש ירושלמי in Kedushin that if one officially moves out it’s considered divorced, and it works both ways not only the husband, she can say ” I want out’ and it’s over.
The same with marriage all you need is to officially move in as as husband and wife and they are considered married. See beginning of Rambam Hilchos Ishus the first halacha.December 11, 2017 12:09 am at 12:09 am #1423996
A little insight into where I was coming from in this question…
I’ve heard a rabbi say that marrying for love is what non-Jews do. If a couple isn’t Jewish, and is in love, then by all means, they can/should get married.
..Why would they need to get married?
…Does that mean that this rabbi, the Torah, Judaism, acknowledges such a thing as *marriage* between non-Jews?
So… when you add in further questions and information, you reach the point where I was.. wondering about the basis, or definition, of marriage between individuals who aren’t Jewish.
Thank you ☺…
And agreed… it’s not my business what anyone doesDecember 11, 2017 12:09 am at 12:09 am #1424011Sechel HaYasharParticipant
Judaism does recognize, and require marriage between Bnai Noach. There are two deios of what constitutes such a marriage.
1. The view of the Rambam (Ishus 1:1)
When a man takes a woman into his home, and they live together as a couple, that constitutes a marriage.
קודם מתן תורה היה אדם פוגע אשה בשוק אם רצה הוא והיא לישא אותה מכניסה לתוך ביתו ובועלה בינו לבין עצמו ותהיה לו לאשה. כיון שנתנה תורה נצטוו ישראל שאם ירצה האיש לישא אשה יקנה אותה תחלה בפני עדים ואח”כ תהיה לו לאשה שנאמר כי. יקח איש אשה ובא אליה
The Rambam (Melochim 9:8) would additionally require the marriage to be publicly known, just as the divorce is accompanied by an act that publicizes it.
בן נח שייחד שפחה לעבדו ובא עליה הרי זה נהרג עליה משום אשת חבירו. ואינו חייב עליה עד שיפשט הדבר ואמרו לה העם זו דבית עבד פלוני. ומאימתי תחזור להיתרה משיפרישנה מעבדו ויפרע ראשה בשוק. ומאימתי תהיה אשת חבירו כגרושה שלנו משיוציאנה מביתו וישלחנה לעצמה. או משתצא היא מתחת רשותו ותלך לה. שאין להם גירושין בכתב. ואין הדבר תלוי בו לבד. אלא כל זמן שירצה הוא או היא לפרוש זה מזה פורשין:
2. The Ramban (Bereishis 25:6):
The Ramban, in addition to the requirements set out by the Rambam above would also require financial commitments on the mans behalf to his wife.
Death of a spouse terminates the marriage, as does divorce. By a Ben Noach divorce can be initiated by either husband or wife. Divorce is effected by a “sending” from the house; but this doesn’t mean that a “temporary abandonment” of one spouse by the other constitutes a divorce. According to the above quoted Rambam it would seem that divorce would require the same seriousness of intent as marriage would.December 11, 2017 12:10 am at 12:10 am #1424000
<I>Therefore that legal mechanism can be used to establish what is considered divorced or what not.</I>
Joseph do you have a source for that statement? I don’t believe it’s true. Halacha defines their marriage. Their courts can rule in monitary laws and exact punishment.December 11, 2017 2:42 am at 2:42 am #1424028Sechel HaYasharParticipant
I wrote a whole long post which seems to have disappeared.December 11, 2017 2:44 am at 2:44 am #1424034
RZ: Perhaps you’re correct. I don’t have a direct source on the narrow point whether the non-Jewish courts/law system has the right to define what constitutes marriage and divorce for non-Jews. Do you have a source stating that Halacha directly defines their marriage/divorce and they cannot define it through their Bnei Noach courts/laws?December 11, 2017 2:54 am at 2:54 am #1424042☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
(The markup for italics here is “em” rather than “i.”)December 11, 2017 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1424321GAONParticipant
Here are the words of the above Yerushalmi in Kedushin, stating there is no divorce “shtar” by a Ben Noach…
“ למדנו גוים אין להן קידושין מהו שיהא להם גירושין ר’ יודה בן פזי ור’ חנין בשם ר’ חונה רובה דציפורין או שאין להן גירושין או ששניהן מגרשין זה את זה ר’ יוחנן דצפרין ר’ אחא ר’ חיננא בשם ר’ שמואל בר נחמן (מלאכי ב) כי שנא שלח וגו’ עד את ה’ אלהי ישראל בישראל נתתי גירושין לא נתתי גירושין באומות העולם ר’ חנניה בשם ר’ פינחס כל הפרשה כתיב יי צבאות וכאן כתיב אלהי ישראל ללמדך שלא ייחד הקב”ה שמו בגירושין אלא בישראל בלבד מילתיה דר’ חייה רבה אמרה גוים אין להן גיורשין דתני ר’ חייה בן גוי שגירש את אשתו והלכה ונישאת לאחר וגירשה ואחר כך נתגיירו שניהן אין אני קורא עליה לא יוכל בעלה הראשון אשר שלחה לשוב לקחתה
See the perushim on the below link:
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14142&st=&pgnum=382December 11, 2017 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #1424552
How marriage occurs with non Jews, Hilchos Ishus 1:1
קֹדֶם מַתַּן תּוֹרָה הָיָה אָדָם פּוֹגֵעַ אִשָּׁה בַּשּׁוּק אִם רָצָה הוּא וְהִיא לִשָּׂא אוֹתָהּ מַכְנִיסָהּ לְתוֹךְ בֵּיתוֹ וּבוֹעֲלָהּ בֵּינוֹ לְבֵין עַצְמוֹ וְתִהְיֶה לוֹ לְאִשָּׁה.”:
Before the giving of the Torah, it would be that if a man happened upon a woman in the marketplace and they wanted to marry each other, he would bring her into his house and consummate the marriage between them privately, and she would be his wife.
How divorce works with non jews Hilchos Melachim 9:8
וּמֵאֵימָתַי תִּהְיֶה אֵשֶׁת חֲבֵרוֹ כִּגְרוּשָׁה שֶׁלָּנוּ מִשֶּׁיּוֹצִיאֶנָּה מִבֵּיתוֹ וִישַׁלְּחֶנָּה לְעַצְמָהּ. אוֹ מִשֶּׁתֵּצֵא הִיא מִתַּחַת רְשׁוּתוֹ וַתֵּלֶךְ לָהּ. שֶׁאֵין לָהֶם גֵּרוּשִׁין בִּכְתָב. וְאֵין הַדָּבָר תָּלוּיִ בּוֹ לְבַד. אֶלָּא כָּל זְמַן שֶׁיִּרְצֶה הוּא אוֹ הִיא לִפְרשׁ זֶה מִזֶּה פּוֹרְשִׁין:
And when is one of their married women considered like one of our divorcees? From the time he expels her from his house and sends her off on her own, or from when she leaves on her own from his property. For the Gentiles do not have a written bill of divorce. and the matter is not dependent upon him alone. Rather, whenever either he or she wishes to separate, they (may) separate.
What the non Jewish courts do, ibid halacha 14
וְכֵיצַד מְצֻוִּין הֵן עַל הַדִּינִין. חַיָּבִין לְהוֹשִׁיב דַּיָּנִין וְשׁוֹפְטִים בְּכָל פֶּלֶךְ וּפֶלֶךְ לָדוּן בְּשֵׁשׁ מִצְוֹת אֵלּוּ. וּלְהַזְהִיר אֶת הָעָם.
What must they do to fulfill their requirement regarding the Law of Justice? They have to set up magistrates and judges in each district to judge the people with regard to these Six Commandments; and they must issue warnings (about them) to the people.
The Kesef Mishnah there brings another peshat, but no mention that they can decide what constitutes marriage. Sounds pretty objective.December 13, 2017 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1426811
Okay, so what we’ve established is…
Gentiles are considered married anytime a man and woman are living together, regardless of any formal marriage certification under gentile laws.
Gentiles are considered divorced from each other whenever one of the two decides to leave the others home.
The above means that a gf/bf (that aren’t married under the law) would be considered married under the Sheva Mitzvos.
Violation of the marriage carries capital punishment.
Question: Regarding the last point, does violating the marriage mean, like by us Yidden, that the violation occurred with a married woman? IOW, a married woman with any male not her husband means both of them are guilty. But a married man with an unmarried woman does not constitute guilt. Or by gentiles does even a married man with an unmarried woman constitute guilt?
My guess (without having looked it up) is that only the former constitutes guilt. (IOW, similar to how it works, in this regard, by Yidden.)
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