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aries – If we are talking about people offering chessed and then purposely negligently coming late. Then we have a different issue at hand. But I don’t think that is the case here.
real-brisker- it’s not easy to have to rely on someone else for a chessed. And people that do volunteer their time and services are amazing people. But chessed does have to be done with respect to make the recipient more comfortable. Haleivi is right. If you aren’t going to do it right, don’t offer. It’s just not right.
If someone were to cook dinner for a family whose mom had a baby or is sick and they put it together sloppily and didn’t put too much time into it and left out ingredients because they didn’t have time to peel a few extra cucumbers… It’s not nice. She could have gotten someone else to cook for her but you offered. So now it’s your responsibility to make sure you do the mitzvah to the fullest.
aries,
DY, the apology you gave on that thread was NOT an apology</em.
You’re entitled to your opinion. I disagree.
and I told you so at that time.
I never saw that post before it was deleted (I’m taking your word for it; it’s not there now.)
What you did was rude and uncalled for aside from being wrong and out of context.
I’ll accept the criticism for the rude part; I can see where you could have taken offense. That’s why my apology is sincere. It was not out of context, though. (I wasn’t going to bring this up again, but since you did..)
I’ve never seen an apology from you, btw, for a rude comment you once made about me (which was soon deleted, I’m not sure if by a moderator or at your request).
Aries -“Health, the only thing I can say is that the only way an organization can know whether or not it is working properly is if people like mytake give them feedback. If everyone just thanks them and applauds them for their good work and doesn’t get back to them about the problems they have no way of knowing and they have no clue that they have to make corrections.”
Yes, that is most certainly true. I don’t know if Mytake gave them the feedback or not. But I do know the orgs. I’ve had dealings with. You can complain till you are blue in the face -they still won’t listen to you and change. “Who are you that they should listen to you? Are you from the elite in Klal Yisroel, ie. Yichus or money?” This would be a good area for Rabbonim to get involved in. It shouldn’t be their way or the highway!
cinderella – I disagree, see my earlier post.
Mytake, +1 and a refuah sheleimah to your loved one.
DY, I did and always do offer an apology when and if I step out of line and it is brought to my attention. I don’t appreciate your digs then or now and that is why, if you haven’t noticed since then I have not been responding to any of your posts and some others. I choose NOT to instead of engaging with someone who chose to fence with pointed sharp swords.
I try my best to filter and not involve myself in threads where I don’t feel I can be of any help. But I certainly don’t come here to be hurt and abused, I am not anyone’s punching bag. It is fine to politely agree to disagree and it is certainly fine to have different opinions and points of view. But it is NOT fine to be rude and hurtful. It is the responsibility of each one of us, including myself, to be accountable for our words and not aim them at anyone’s heart.
Debating a topic is one thing, even though topics can bring out heat and emotions, but trying to get the better of someone by getting personal or purposely going for the jugular is the reason why so many people have left. Just because we have anonymity that does not give us the right at any time to do so. And just because some here are so nice and sweet on most threads and then attack one person or another on some others does not absolve them of their accountability for that. There is a human being with real problems and issues behind each screen name whether they bring them to the front or not. At the very least behind each screen name, there is a human being with a heart and soul who bleeds if you cut them, and hurts if you punch them.
One does not need to be right in every discussion. It is fine to learn from others as well and just because a person throws punches it doesn’t make them any more right, it just makes them more hurtful.
mytake – Thanks for the blessings, I agree that chessed would be nice’ER if it was done better. But we must be thankful for every aspect of it, and not be a kofuy tov on with what we takka do recive. The ballaie chessed owe you nothing, they are doing it with open hands and without any self motivations coming from it. How can we complain and belittle someone that does a favor “not in the way we would have liked it?” Does it make sense? If you were paying for the service, or if the service was owed to you, than go ahead by all means you have the right to complain. However if it is not owed to you who are you to complain. This is just my feeling on the matter. If you disagree gezuntaheit you are entitled to your own opinion.
RB, I understand that this is your feeling on the matter. Maybe just maybe you should discuss it with your RAV to get a better understanding of what the “rules” of doing gemilus chessed involve. Truly it not about a feeling it involves more than that. It is a mitzvah and there are rules regarding how one goes about doing mitzvos.
mytake- i can’t agree with you more!! refuah shelama!!
RB just take a step back for a second… all that mytake is trying to bring out is be a little more conciderate!! thats ALL!!! just stop repeating the same thing over and over!!! your point is understould but not agreed on by most posters thats all!!
mytake – Asking for more is being ungrateful, be happy with what you get.
aries – Can you please point me out where in SA I can find these rules?
Real-Brisker:
I disagree with you. I think mytake has a very valid complaint against the girls, and would have been right to chew them out.
Chessed is completely optional, but once you agree to do it, and the other person relies on you, it is an obligation. If they had simply refused to do it, or told Mytake they would be an hour and a half late, Mytake could have taken a cab or made other arrangements.
The key is that Mytake acted in reliance on them and foreclosed other options. Asking for what you were promised is not being ungrateful at all.
pba – I don’t think they purposely came late. If they did then I agree. But on the music she has no complaint.
In my view this whole thread is about one topic multitasking, some people today are not satisfied unless they are doing ten things at once, oh your going out? drop off the suits at the dry cleaners take mendy to the dentist pick up yael from art class stop by the drug store to pick up the prescription and take a kugel to bubbys house, what unfortunately happens when u try to do too many things at once is one thing slips your mind what if that one thing is the baby in the back seat R”l it happens all the time.
PBA -“Chessed is completely optional, but once you agree to do it, and the other person relies on you, it is an obligation.”
This quote applies equally or more as well to the Org.!
Really? I think she has a real tayna even if they only negligently came late. When you tell someone you will do something, and they are relying on you- you make it your business to do it.
The music is a bit different. It sort of depends on what the norms are, what they were expecting, and what she was expecting. In any event, I think the main point here was the lateness, not the music.
pba – “Really?” Yes
No RB , I won’t point it out to you in the SA because you will only interpret it the way you want to read it in order for you to be right. Like I said before, you really need to discuss this with your RAV so you can hear the truth from his own lips, face to face. You need to hear the truth on this matter face to face from your own RAV and you need him to explain to you why you are wrong and misguided on this issue.
My mother a”h used to say “if ten people call you a shiker your a shiker”. Do you know what that means? If ten people call you a drunk, you are a drunk! You keep arguing your point and everyone keeps telling you that you are wrong and you refuse to see it. Therefore the only way you will accept the truth is if you hear it from your own RAV and he explains it to you. That’s it I am not debating this with you any longer. Please go speak to your RAV, seriously because the fact that you don’t understand how to do this mitzvah is very sad, the fact that you keep arguing how right you are is even sadder.
aries,
I appreciate the dialogue. As you know, and have pointed out, IIRC, sometimes a poster’s tone does not reflect their true intentions. I think I’ve been misunderstood by you; I haven’t meant anything personal; I don’t even know you! I do find some of your your posts aggressive and condescending, hence my tone towards you is indeed different than to other posters. Maybe I’m misreading it. I’ll propose that we call a truce, and if I find a post of yours offensive, I’ll politely point it out, and you’ll do likewise to my posts. I wouldn’t want to have to ignore each other; you’re too intelligent and have too much to offer to the discussion, even if I often disagree with you.
Agree to a truce?
DY, we are both Yiddin so of course. We are after all on the same side, to do right by all Jews, so we just have to agree to disagree politely and courteously. May you always have hatzlocha in all your endeavors.
pba – “Really?” Yes
Do you care to defend that position? It sounds like right ????? to me.
real-brisker:
As the famous saying goes “beggers can’t be choosey”
According to the Jewish concept of chesed, the chesed-doer is NOT supposed to treat the recipient like a ‘beggar.’ It’s not a matter of quid pro quo.
OneOfMany -“It’s not a matter of quid pro quo.”
What does this mean for the non-lawyers here?
“According to the Jewish concept of chesed, the chesed-doer is NOT supposed to treat the recipient like a ‘beggar.'”
Even if the Torah proscribed to the belief of “beggars can’t be choosey”, it still would be against the Torah for them to come late. Why? Because it’s Ossur to be dishonest -if you say you will be somewhere at a certain time -you must be there, give or take a few, barring some emergency (Oiness)!
aries – Please, don’t tell me what and how to do. You are a huge hypocrite. You go and rant to DY how you are not here to be abused, or abuse anyone, or make anyone feel bad or anything of the sort… And then – NOT EVEN ON A DIFFERENT THREAD, ON THE SAME THREAD, you go and bash, poke, belittle, defame and make chiozek of another poster. I herby will not communicate with a hypocrite like you any further.
aries,
Thank you, same to you.
Why do some posters sound so angry all the time? If you agree to do a chessed, then do it correctly in a way that is truly a chessed. Otherwise you are only doing a favor. Chessed goes beyond a favor. It means doing something to benefit someone else with a sense of kindness and caring involved. I can do a favor for anyone, and feel put upon, or only do it at my convenience. If I am doing a chessed, it should be at the recipient’s convenience, otherwise it is not a full chessed, and maybe someone else should do it.
My father O”H had a favorite quote that really defined him. He always taught me, “Hamaschil b’mitzvah, omrim lo g’mor!” If you are going to do a mitzvah, finish it, do it the right way. If you agree to be part of Bikur Cholim and take someone to and from the hospital, make every effort to be on time. Glitches Do happen, so call the person and let him/her know there is a problem. It is simple menschlechkeit.
In most areas of life, we are not “entitled.” But never make a “beggar” (and that is such a not-nice expression to describe someone vulnerable who is depending on someone else when they need help)feel he is being choosy because he needs your help to be done in the specific way he reasonably exprected it to be done, when you offered to do it.
oomis,
I agree with the ideas expressed in your post, but I will nitpick on one detail. I think a favor is a chessed, although someone has a right to choose how far to go with a chessed, it’s still a chessed. (we’re probably just using different terminology to express the same idea). In the particular scenario in this thread, I fully agree with the OP, you, and other posters that the girl had an obligation to do her chessed in the way it was originally arranged, and it was wrong to inconvenience the recipient of the chessed the way she did.
My mother was very involved in a chessed organization so I can definitely hear where all the posters are coming from. I used to have a joke with my mom about the person who was DESPERATE for one hour of baby sitting on Monday, and the chessed worker said she would do better than that, she would give them TWO hours on Tuesday. I do not believe there is ill intent, I think there are kind people who dont always know what it is like to need. And those who need can’t always ask. If you really want to do chessed, I encourage people to find out what the person needs, and only agree if that is actually what you will provide, otherwise, try again next week! But to all who do give of themselves, THANK YOU and tizku l’mitzvos.
In short, it is nice to offer and it is nicer to actually be thoughful. The former is not necessarily born of the latter.
RB, you chose to communicate with me and others and push your point. I was NOT abusing you, I was answering you as others were and only making sincere suggestions to you to take this question to someone who you can trust to give you an honest and sincere explanation.
RB, it is YOU who chose to post an answer harshly on this thread and it is you who has been quite harsh in your responses to mytake basically telling her that she is ungrateful being the “beggar” that she is expecting more than she received. Maybe that wasn’t really what you meant to say, but that is the essence of the message you relayed over and over again, no matter how many others have debated you and pointed out to you that you have the wrong view of this particular mitzvah.
I don’t know if you are arguing for the sake of arguing, if you have a need to be right or you really are confused about this issue. I made a simple suggestion to you that you speak to your own RAV to hear what he has to say about it. I don’t consider that abuse but good advice. If you find that offensive I apologize. Are you willing to apologize to mytake for abusing her?
My Take: A very speedy refuah Sheleima to the patient. I must tell you I have so much to say, I could probably write a book on this. I feel anyone who has not been on the receiving end of this chesed really should not be voicing their opinion here. You have absolutely no idea, and you never should, what expenses are entailed in dealing with a patient. You are not a beggar and shouldn’t be referred to as such! These organizations are wonderful in many ways and can use improvement in many ways. Unfortunately I was on the receiving end with one of the very famous organizations which really could use a tikun. I used them for one thing only , transporatation to and from chemo. treatments and constant testing. I was questioned from them numerous times of the validity of our visits???!! I was once asked why can’t you go on the Bikur Cholim bus? Sure, chemo. patients would definitely enjoy the bumpy ride after a session , don’t you think?
After a couple months of rides, I was told the rides would have to stop, only offering us one way. When I asked why, I was told people abuse the system, use it for shopping. So I asked, are you aware of the drop off and pick up addresses? So the kind transportation provider said, well you never gave us a diagnosis? I said what? I thought chemo. was enough, I have no problem giving you that info.
This was really ridiculous!! Humiliating to put it mildly. When you are dealing with a sickness, rachmana litzlan, you really don’t need any other aggravation. That’s what this chesed is supposed to be all about, relieving the tension.
a mamin -I’m sorry to read your story, but this goes to prove my point that a lot of these problems are coming from the org., not mainly from the volunteers.
The reason you had problems with them was because you were burning up money. Some of these orgs. are only run for the sake of Kovod. Every org. in the world has only a limited amount of money, even if is a lot. The ones that are run for Kovod of the organizers and sometimes even the volunteers -like to use their money on things that gets them more Kovod. Of course they provide transportation, otherwise people would get suspicious of them and withhold their support. Unfortunately for you, they put very little $ into Real services for pts. and you used up your allotment!
Health, I don’t have much opinion in your argument, but one thing is for sure: in any organization the attitude of the top gets passed down.
What a sorry state, so far I have only heard good things about the BC in my neighborhood and I know many volunteers and recipients. B”H we have a very chessedik community to begin with and people are extremely serious when it comes to doing chessed. So I only hope and pray that it is not my neighborhood that is letting you down. Everyone does chessed in their own way, and my calendar is booked with my own projects. Other members in my family do volunteer to drive and they do it with kovod and care. MY sil tells me how she gets chizuk from her passengers. That is a whole different scenario.
When a volunteer comes home and tells her family, I had a passenger today that taught me a lesson in emunah and bitachon we can gain something from that and we understand why that person is doing the mitzvah, and why she goes back again and again.
My father a”h was a baker and he was around during the day. Women didn’t drive then as they do today, so there weren’t that many cars driving around BP during the day when I was in school. My father would go out and pick up elderly people and women with babies from the bus stop towards Maimonides hospital and give them rides, especially when it was very cold or very hot. People would say to him they don’t want to be matrioch him and he would reply matriach? The car goes wherever you tell it, it is never a tircha,
My Take: Thank you for your kind words. Yes Baruch Hashem that patient is Gezint. We have so much to be thankful for. Hashem should help ALL cholei yisroel mamash bekoriv!
The stories from that period over ten years ago are still very painful to me. I wish I could work on it more to forget….
The ikar is when we do a chesed for others we know how NOT to do it, don’t we?
Wishing your family member a complete refuah sheleima!!
Daas Yichid, we are really looking at the same idea semantically differently, though I really do believe that just as Tzedaka is not charity, neither is a favor necessarily chessed, though it may be a chessed to do a favor for someone. When the favor ceases to have kindness and thoughtfulness as well as a full heart behind it, though it still may be doing a favor, it simply does not have (for me, anyway) the same connotation as a chessed. Chessed comes from ahavas habrios. A shrewish woman breaking up with a guy because he is not rich enough to suit her, is doing him a favor. Wait, scratch that, it might actually be a chessed 😉
Never mind.
Hi mytake (as in your viewpoint, or a type of mushroom?) lol
I hope you are feeling much better now and continue to have a refuah shelayma.
Your post would be valuable feedback to the organization.
I think you should let them know. It should not be a matter of any warm body who volunteers automatically has the job.
The volunteers should be screened and receive some sort of orientation, or even a completion of a few hours of a class with certificate only for the fact of impressing upon the volunteers they are not doing a quick, bing, bang, boom thing.
It is very important the volunteers have the right approach while doing this mitzva.
Again, feel better!
My Take: I can truly appreciate your questions. I think everyone is different and every case is different. The fear in me NEVER goes away, nor from the patient unfortunately! She is seeing someone now who ( for other reasons)I hope will be able to help her deal with this as well.It doesn’t only affect her, it affected the whole family who was aware.I try to work on my emuna and bitochin, that’s part of my choosing this screen name after all. We really need to believe that everything has a reason and everything is for the good. Hashem has been extremely kind to us, we’ve had various tests in life. I pray we pass all of them.
One thing I definitely have learned no one is guarenteed in life.
One of my children was “redt” a shidduch with a “survivor” they couldn’t believe I would consider it for a healthy child. Though we couldn’t turn it down for that reason.We understood… (BTW it didn’t work out anyway)
My Take: I think you need to work on that cloud… It really is what you make it. I know, believe me , it’s extremely difficult. Whenever I think of the doctors, the tests, the hospital, I feel sick.
Try not to let this cloud follow you, try going after the sun.I found alot of comfort in my Tehillim, talk to Hashem, only He can help us…
Real Brisker – sorry, are you with it??!!! We are talking about a person who has been in hospital for hours, – think for a moment what this involves? Issues of possibly life and death? Thoughts of loosing a loved one Chas ve. or seeing a loved one suffer, or suffering oneself? The unknown, the scariness, a medical language that maybe one doesnt understand and definately cant control… the list continues a lot longer. Dont you think they need some understanding when they finally leave the hospital? -theyre waiting for the care and attention that they need – after all theyre expecting a fellow Jew to collect them, so theyre hoping this will be someone understanding, possibly who they can vent a little to…
Chessed is about thinking about the other person, not thinking about yourself. When we do a Chessed we have to think how can we BEST help the person who needs us, not how can we get away with doing the least possible!
I am sorry you got caught giving a lift to someone and it took much longer than you thought it would. But think about it- maybe the guy you gave a lift to was so demanding becuase he is completley neglected? Maybe noone spoke to him all day and him asking you for music and heating on/off was just a way for him to communicate with someone. Maybe he needed someones attention and care and this was his way of asking for it. Maybe he took you all around town because he felt he needed to be with someone – maybe you were his only company all day! Who knows!
Chessed means thinking about the OTHER PERSON and their needs, feelings and their world.
May you be zoche to only ever be on the giving side
wondering.. – I am merely stating that chessed does not require having to be done to the full extent in order to be able to do it Everything counts.
Bottom line – if you are going to do a chessed, do it as a chessed. If you cannot do it, then let someone else get the mitzvah. Though you get some brownie points for every aspect of the tovos you do, maybe the reason we call it gemilus chassadim, is that if you are not “gomeil” the chessed, meaning doing a COMPLETE chessed in every aspect, it is not really a chessed.
Hi real-brisker.
I got your back on this one.
I will say that you are totally correct. Those doing the chesed did as they should. No problem. They were just mismatched for the particular assignment they were given.
Is that good? : )
BTGuy, the point is, the were not “given” the assignment they took it.
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