Driving on Shabbos

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  • #1212441

    Joseph
    Participant

    lilmod, do you also refuse to believe reports, due to l”h, that Bibi Netanyahu, Chuck Schumer and Bernie Sanders don’t keep Shabbos?

    #1212442

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD, pikuach nefesh makes absolutely no sense.

    #1212443

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Not all victims of molestors are girls, many are boys.”

    What does that have to do with anything? In this case, they were all girls and they weren’t molested.

    “If you wish to call a Shmiras Halashon if a known molestor attends your shul with your nieces and nephews (Or any other relatives), go right ahead.”

    That has nothing to do with the example I cited.

    “I will protect my family first and if it means I did an averiah, I will take that averiah. Better I take such an averiah than anyone become a victim”

    That shows a big lack of emunah. If a certain type of hishtadlus is assur according to halacha, doing it won’t help you a bit. Hashem is the one who decides what happens. Our actions don’t make things happen, and it is kefira to think that they do.

    As the Mesilas Yesharim says, our hishtadlus is muchrach (required) but not mo’il (causative).

    The Chovos Halevavos says that if someone does hishtadlus that is against the Torah, it shows a lack of bitachon. If you think that acting against Hashem’s Will will help you that means that you think that you are in control and not Hashem. You think that your actions make things happen, and not Hashem.

    If you had lived in the US in the early 1900’s would you have said it was okay to be mechalel Shabbos because otherwise you wouldn’t have a parnassah and your kids might starve?

    In any case, if you know that the guy is a molestor and that a specific person or people is going to be coming into contact with them, of course, you are allowed to warn them. But that has nothing to do with deciding that you can make public announcements online because you heard that a certain person might be a molestor even if you don’t know that they are a danger or that your announcement will protect anyone. And even in the example you gave, you would still need to ask a sheilah in order to find out exactly what you are allowed to say and how to phrase it.

    “And people who cheat in their taxes (I dont mean take an illegal deduction, I mean serious cheating like not paying sales taxes or paying employees in cash) are likely to be dishonest elsewhere as well”

    To think that you can make a public announcement condemning someone who cheats on his taxes because otherwise someone might end up being cheated by them is absolutely absurd. Maybe I should say that if someone makes statements reflecting a certain lack of emunah, then I could assume they might end up being dishonest since they think that their parnassah depends on their own hishtadlus so I have to tell everyone about them?

    #1212444

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Joseph…

    It doesn’t matter what these three men do…they were born Jews. Keeping Shabbos was a condition of conversion for Ms. Trump.

    #1212445

    Health
    Participant

    Huju -“Would everyone please stop worrying about Ivanka Trump’s observation of halacha. No one is holding her up as a model of frum womanhood. It’s unfair to her, and unfair to OJ’s (orthodox Jews).”

    I agree! Instead we need to worry about all the fakers that pretend to be Frum.

    Anyways, she’s a typical Giyores, it goes in stages!

    “And just to be clear, I am a registered Democrat, an unregistered liberal, and I expect her father to continue to be a liar, cheater, fake phony fraud, and will be the worst president the US has ever had. I also hope I turn out to be wrong. (I was wrong once before, and I got over it).”

    Whatever that you think about Trump, it is a lot better than the other choice – Crooked Hillary!

    #1212446

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    LU always mentions Daf L’zchus.

    Perhaps we should take her advice

    Most jews dont keep Shabbos

    #1212447

    mik5
    Participant

    From dinonline:

    [including throwing rocks at police], it would surely be considered pikuach nefesh. Especially if they were told so by the security officers, since it was pekuach nefesh, then they were allowed to enter the car.

    Regarding the fact that they put themselves into that situation [as opposed to staying home]

    #1212448

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Who cares who gave this “heter”, or if the Kushners even asked a shaila. Unless you are their Rav, or, have a legitimate interest in their shmiras hamitzvos in general or their shmiras shabbos in particular, of what concern is this to you. Is anyone concerned with the heter for the manner in which Mrs. Kushner dresses? Did anyone question the kashrus of the supposedly kosher food served, or who certified it as kosher? Remember, we are discussing a “pretty observant” family, here.

    #1212449

    Avi K
    Participant

    I think that as reported the heter makes perfect sense, especially after seeing videos ofthe rampaging anti-Trump hooligans. Assuming that the driver is not Jewish it is at most an issur d’rabbanan of amira l’akum. This is allowed even in situations that are not life-threatening. If a non-Jew told the non-Jewish driver to drive them it is even easier. If there was a security deal in the car and there were more non-Jews than Jews it is even easier as we might be able to say that the melacha was done for their benefit.

    As for copy-cats, your complaint should be against those who advertised the heter. However, it could also be that the discussions in frum social media will make people more aware of the fact that the Halacha is not black and white but shades of gray. Knowing that one has a shaila is also very important. According to the version in the Midrash Rabba, when Rabbi Pinchas ben Yair’s talmidim pointed out that animal fodder is exempt from terumot and maaserot he said “hachamor machmir”.

    #1212450

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Mik5, it is important to note that he is only speculating.

    I agree with the comment there that they had an opportunity to make a big kiddush Hashem by keeping Shabbos without compromise.

    #1212451

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Avi, it is not only direct amirah/tzivui l’akum which is the problem here. Adding their weight to the car is problematic.

    As far as there being more non Jews than Jews, aside from being highly unlikely, they would have to be as chashuv as the Kushners, and the car could not drive anywhere special for them. Therefore, that is completely inapplicable here.

    #1212452

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Is anyone concerned with the heter for the manner in which Mrs. Kushner dresses? Did anyone question the kashrus of the supposedly kosher food served, or who certified it as kosher?

    Nobody reported a heter for that, AFAIK, and it wasn’t reported which heterim or hechsherim the kashrus of the food was based on.

    #1212453

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    It’s not LH to say that a secular or reform Jew who admits he/she isn’t Shomer Shabbos, isn’t Shomer Shabbos. They wouldn’t consider it an insult themselves. I think what people are trying to get at is that we’re supposed to judge our fellow Jew favorably. I.e. if you see someone you know to be frum doing something that seems not okay, you might have to assume there are other circumstances.

    This doesn’t mean we have to pretend chilonim actually have kosher kitchens and are Shomer Shabbos, it just “might not seem like it.” It doesn’t apply when the person is a serial offender, which it would appear the Kushners are.

    CT: How can you say it doesn’t matter when a person is born Jewish? Is Bernie not obligated in the Mitzvos? The argument is about people who are claiming they are Orthodox, while publicly violating Shabbos. Yes, I admit, it adds a bit of spice that one of them went through Orthodox geirus.

    #1212454

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Remember, we are discussing a “pretty observant” family, here.”

    Bingo. The problem is that many posters are so caught up wanting to believe that our commander in chief has a frum daughter and son-in-law that they are pretending the Kushners are more than that.

    #1212455

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ZD: “LU always mentions Daf L’zchus.

    Perhaps we should take her advice

    Most jews dont keep Shabbos”

    I’m being quoted by ZD! I’m impressed!

    #1212456

    Joseph
    Participant

    NCB: CTL’s comment makes sense. What he was saying is that a born Jew is a Jew even if he eats pork every day. He wasn’t discussing any Jews obligation to keep the 613. His underlying point was that if a gentile is seeking to convert, s/he must agree to accept and keep the 613, otherwise the conversion won’t be effective.

    #1212457

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Molester is spelled with two e’s, not two o’s.

    #1212458

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Joseph………

    Thank you for understanding exactly what I was saying

    #1212459

    miamilawyer
    Participant

    Ok, you enticed me to post with a discussion of politics, one of my favorite subjects.

    @joseph, huh? My memory on these issues is certainly fading, but doesnt Rambam say that a jew can be converted by learning a few hard halachas and a few easy ones and once he is converted, even if he goes back to worshiping idols, he is still a jew? Isnt that quoted in the shulchan aruch? So if you assume that she is converted properly, what difference does it make whether she is a ger or not?

    Second, isnt everyone missing the obvious? Kushner is adviser to the president of the US, whose actions affect jews in Israel and here (basically, almost all of the world’s jews). Doesnt that alone justify certain heterim? I am assuming that Queen Ester did not dress modestly. In fact, one opinion in the Talmud had her married to Mordechai.

    Anyway, Kushner cares enough about the issue to leak that he got a heter. Whether he did or not, that is pretty impressive.

    #1212460

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    At this point, does it matter if Ivanka is halachically Jewish?

    If Jared is observing the mitzvot that he strives towards and Ivanka is helping him, which is something that only he and Hashem can know, and her children are considered halachically Jewish, then is the controversy so important that one must potentially speak LH here?

    #1212461

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Second, isnt everyone missing the obvious? Kushner is adviser to the president of the US, whose actions affect jews in Israel and here (basically, almost all of the world’s jews). Doesnt that alone justify certain heterim?

    Possibly, but very unlikely this.

    I am assuming that Queen Ester did not dress modestly.

    Don’t assume that.

    #1212462

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    LB, I think Ivanka is Jewish, but you seemed to miss that if a woman is not Jewish, neither are her children.

    #1212463

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Not necessarily. If a woman converts to Judaism; promising to keep the 613 mitzvot and does so sufficiently as a frum Jew, and has children; then her children are Jewish.

    If she happens to go OTD the following year, are her children no longer Jewish? Does someone come in and strip away their neshamot?

    #1212464

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Second, isnt everyone missing the obvious? Kushner is adviser to the president of the US, whose actions affect jews in Israel and here (basically, almost all of the world’s jews). Doesnt that alone justify certain heterim?”

    I still think that Trump secretly threatened to make a deal with the Arabs and kill all the Jews if Esther, I mean Ivanka, didn’t come to the inauguration. So it was a horaas sha’ah for her to go.

    Seriously, it would have seriously damaged her relationship with him if she hadn’t gone, and maybe she really was scared of what he would do. Family relationships when someone has converted can be very tricky, and I would imagine that was a consideration in the heter. Maybe that’s what made it pikuach nefesh.

    Who knows what Trump might have done if she hadn’t gone? He likes her a lot, but that’s because she does what he wants. He is not known for his stability or consistency or peaceful disposition.

    #1212466

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “I am assuming that Queen Ester did not dress modestly.”

    “Don’t assume that.”

    +1 Actually she was noted for her modesty. Anyhow, in those days, I think the norm was to dress modestly. I once saw someone point out how it was a given back then that the men’s party was completely separate from the women’s party.

    #1212467

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If chas v’shalom a woman goes OTD, she and her children are still Jewish.

    #1212468

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Not necessarily. If a woman converts to Judaism; promising to keep the 613 mitzvot and does so sufficiently as a frum Jew, and has children; then her children are Jewish.”

    What DY meant was: if her conversion was acceptable and she is Jewish, then her children are Jewish as well. If her conversion was not acceptable and she is not Jewish, then her children are not Jewish.

    Basically, her kids are whatever she is. You had seemed to imply that it’s possible for her to be a non-Jew and yet for her kids to be Jewish. That is what DY was responding to.

    #1212469

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “If she happens to go OTD the following year, are her children no longer Jewish?”

    If the conversion was an acceptable conversion and she happens to go OTD afterwards, both she and the kids remain Jewish.

    #1212470

    Joseph
    Participant

    Esther did not voluntarily marry Achashveiros. She was forced to against her will.

    #1212471

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Seriously, pikuach nefesh? Maybe you really believe your second paragraph?

    #1212472

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph – but afterwards, she went to him voluntarily in order to save Am Yisrael. That’s why she said, “ka’asher avaditi avaditi”

    #1212473

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    “I still think that Trump secretly threatened to make a deal with the Arabs and kill all the Jews if Esther, I mean Ivanka, didn’t come to the inauguration. So it was a horaas sha’ah for her to go. “

    My thoughts exactly!

    He really makes a scene when he doesn’t get his way. I can only begin to imagine the type of pressure she and Jared are under.

    Plus Melania will be spending the rest of the school year in NY with their son.

    Trump may be extra demanding in a separation anxiety magnified meltdown.

    #1212474

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Seriously, pikuach nefesh? Maybe you really believe your second paragraph?”

    Third and fourth are more likely. I would be pretty scared of him if he were my father, c”v.

    #1212475

    Joseph
    Participant

    miami: That’s all assuming the conversion was properly effective by the prospective’s kabolas ol mitzvos of all 613.

    #1212476

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    LU, then you too are abusing the term pikuach nefesh.

    #1212477

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Joseph: Ivanka did not voluntarily appoint Trump as her father either.

    #1212478

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Joseph, which it probably was, as she accepted all of the mitzvos, although she was sadly never taught some halachos.

    #1212479

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    DY, just trying to be dan l’kaf zchus. Haven’t you ever read any of those books with dan l’kaf zchus stories? This is WAY less farfetched than most stories.

    #1212480

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    For anyone who even only remotely understands what it is like to live under the hand of a father who makes a fit when things do not go his way, puts on a great show for the public, and goes off on tyrants, saying that Ivanka and her family could have been dealing with a pikuach nefesh situation is an understatement.

    #1212481

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Freudian slip: “tirades” not “tyrants”

    #1212482

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB +1!

    #1212483

    Mammele
    Participant

    Stop demonizing Donald Trump. If he were such a tyrant, Jared and Ivanka would have stayed far, far away and Jared wouldn’t have volunteered to help him with his campaign. Before he helped his FIL, no one likely knew he even had political skills as he was just a young albeit successful businessman, not an acclaimed politician. And they didn’t even need Trump’s money…

    Also, in your effort to be DL”Z and steer away from possible L”H, you may be forgetting that Donald Trump is our President (even if you don’t currently reside in the US, this is a public forum) and he needs to be respected as such. Not for naught do we say in Pirkei Avos “??? ????? ?????? ?? ?????”.

    #1212484

    miamilawyer
    Participant

    In case it wasn’t clear, my comment about modesty was an example (and frankly a euphemism). If t was not a good one, so be it. The ester example was to make a famous point. That even yeherag val Yavor stuff maybe has an exception if the entire nation is in jeopardy. Shabbos is a much easier example. After all, you can break Shabbos to save a single life, and frankly, as others have noted, you might even be able to get the violation down to a rabbinic violation.

    Anti-semitism is unfortunately increasing in America. On both sides of the aisle. Israel is increasingly at risk. Those two places contain 80 percent of the worlds jews. Whatever you may think of trumps policies, the man is not stable. Nor does he like intervention in the world. Nor is he inclined to help anyone outside our borders. His original comment is that us should be neutral in the Israel Palestinian dispute. Make no mistake that Kashner changed his mind.

    And as we saw, he is really obsessed with crowd size and who attended his inauguration. he would not have been happy if kushner and his daughter did not attend. And that as the most powerful man in the world, that would have affected Jewish lives through his Israel policy Is almost a certainty.

    I suspect if you wanted, you could find other instances where kushner bends Jewish law. One might argue that simply makes him human. Regardless, this may very well not be one of them.

    #1212485

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Family relationships can be complicated. I know of someone who was a BT and had a brother who was going to get intermarried. her mother told her she had better be at that wedding or she was going to get cut off (She was not in a position to refuse her mothers help…Not everyone is able to get cut off and her choice of spouse did not please her mother)

    I can also tell you from other expeiences it can have tensions

    #1212486

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Mammale………..

    Really? How would you know what Ivanka and Jared would have done?

    A daughter doesn’t necessarily stay far away from the father who supports her.

    How large were the campaign salaries they were paid? We’ll never know, just as the liar in chief will never release his tax returns.

    I respect the OFFICE of the President of the USA. I have no respect for them who was just sworn in. I have met him, had business dealings and had him cheat my brother’s business out of money for work performed and equipment provided.

    Mrs. CTL had 10 surgeries in 2016, spent 27 days on life support in ICU and had coverage because of the requirements placed on insurance companies by the ACA. $2.5 million in bills…we used to have a $1 million cap before ACA. This rasha immediately is looking to repeal ACA, but he and his family will have unlimited care on out nickel.

    Now with a preexisting condition Mrs. CTL may not be able to buy new coverage at any price. I pray it doesn’t happen to you. Enjoy Trump, I’ll woirk to oppose his actions every day…if he actually does something I support, I’ll voice my approval…I am open minded.

    #1212487

    Health
    Participant

    I find it very ironic, that when it comes to the Kushners a lot of people are jumping on the band wagon to denigrate, but when it comes to s/o that was beaten up at a Chasunah – a lot of posters come to the perpetrator’s defense!

    What’s the reason?!?

    #1212489

    lesschumras
    Participant

    CT, Crooked Hillary lost so the liar in chief is a misnomer. The President and the Republicans have made it clear that coverage for preexisting illnesses will continue. I’m glad ACA worked for you but please stop generalizing. My nephew and his friends experience is more common. He is going without insurance because he can’t afford the $13,000 premium for a policy that has an $8,000 deductible.

    And, please stop bragging about your role as a Democratic legislature. Connecticut has become one of the highest taxed States. Briggeport is ba krupr and Hartford , the capital, is headed that way. The economy is flat and He left the state after the primal state budget Bose to E another big tax raise rather than cut spending. The two New York commuter lines that are a part of Metro North are in the process of updating their fleets with new cars; Connecticut has no plans to replace the aging fleet on its branch.

    #1212490

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Mammele – you are correct that it is better not to speak LH about anyone even “ainam Yehudim”, even though it is not technically assur, and it is something I generally try to avoid. I am impressed that that is something you realize and are concerned about.

    However, in this case, the shikul I made was that LH was being spoken about Ivanka and Jared about whom LH is assur. Since one is a chumra and the other is a halacha, halacha takes priority.

    I am unaware of any halachos regarding LH and presidents. I do agree that it is wise to be careful. However, again, halacha takes priority over all other considerations.

    #1212491

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ZD +1 very true! Especially in this case. I do not envy Ivanka or Jared, especially Ivanka. I would not want to be in her shoes (literal or figurative).

    #1212492

    Avi K
    Participant

    I wonder how much coverage the Republicans could have added to the revised plan with the $221 million Obama gave to terrorists three hours (!) before leaving office (hopefully the new plan will include caps on malpractice awards so that medical personnel will not have to pay enormous insurance premiums and order unnecessary tests to cover themselves – two major causes of expensive health care in the US). Unfortunately the election came down to who is the bigger rasha. Someone whose negligence caused the deaths of American diplomats, treated the PM of Israel like a vassal and demanded that he not build in our capital, compromised national security through use of an unsecured server, made a career out of lying and other unethical behavior and stated explicitly that the Federal government should dictate religious doctrine (the so-called Civil Rights Commission also wants to dictate who can be clergy) vs a vulgar egomaniac. Not very much on the sidelines violent opponents of the new administration (who also sent anti-Semitic tweets to Rabbi Hier and have vowed to destroy Israel) led by someone who expressed her desire to blow up the White House.

    May Hashem grant Mrs. CTL a refuah sheleima and may He bring American Jewry home in a good way.

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