Elul means NOTHING

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  • #2590565
    The Frumguy
    Participant

    I’m sure that we’ve all heard dozens of Drashos (this Elul alone) about how Hakadosh Baruch Hu is waiting for us to improve on even one small thing. This would hopefully change the Midas Hadin into Midas Harachamim these upcoming Yomim Noraim.

    Many of those Drashos focus on Tefillah; about how we should Daven with a bit more Kavannah and speak to Hashem , as he is directly in front of us. So far, I have not been to a Minyan that has truly taken this to heart. As if nothing was discussed, men are still mumbling the words as fast as they can, rush through Davening as though it is meaningless and just DON’T CHANGE. What do you think is the reason for this?

    It is really something that we need to take to heart during this month.

    #2590812
    A Lamdin
    Participant

    Do you know what goes on in peoples mind??I saw one guy called himself nevuah but you didnt? WHY??

    #2590818
    The little I know
    Participant

    Frumguy:

    There is a wealth of info explaining Elul. As for your heading, it should read, “I don’t understand what Elul is”, rather than your statement minimizing something out Chazal held so dear. I’ll take a shot at a response, while noting the treasures contained in the works of baalei mussar and other leaders of Klal Yisroel.

    HKB”H is indeed our King. But greatly different from a human monarch. He is indeed the Judge passing judgement on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. But greatly different from a human judge. He is also Avinu Malkeinu, our heavenly Father, who provides us with the secrets and tools to get through the Yimei Hadin unscathed. He gives us teshuvah, the mitzvah of shofar, and the history of thousands of years of guidance and genius. He whispers these secrets into our ears. No human can or would do this. A father would, placing Avinu before Malkeinu.

    Teshuvah is NOT a switch that we turn on. It isn’t automatic, nor is it simple. We are guided to engage in introspection, to examine our thoughts, motives, feelings, and our innermost emotions. We can change behavior with a switch, though this is tougher than it sounds. But the cheshbon hanefesh that is requisite is a great challenge. A person seeks to control behavior, not get caught when violating. But that is fear of consequence. Our reckoning in Yimei Hadin extends into the deepest crevices of our hearts and minds. HKB”H is completely aware of all our inner workings. Nothing is secret from Him. We can behave outwardly with the greatest image of a Yirei Shomayim. And others will see that and conclude so. If that was the ticket to Yom Hadin, no one would need more than a day to become impressive. But Klal Yisroel answers to a higher call. We are not “homo sapiens”, which Rabbi Twerski translates as a gorilla with intellect. Rather we are “homo spiritus”, a creature that is imbued with a neshomoh, a spirit that can achieve great levels. But that requires focus. Elul us a gift. It allows us to do the annual cleaning of our emotional and mental innards. It cannot be accomplished in a day or two.

    Seforim share much about Melech basodeh, the King in the field. In short, Aseres Yimei Teshuvah represent Yom Hadin. Elul represents complete Rachamim and Ratzon. HKB”H is figuratively circulating among us, arms wide open seeking to embrace us. “Come to me, my child.”. His voice is not detectable in decibels. Our ears don’t hear the message. But our hearts do, if we focus and pay attention. HKB”H is whispering the secrets to enter Yimei Hadin and triumph over the challenging voices of mekatregim that are prosecutory. The work of Elul is a challenge. But it is a great gift. It means everything.

    #2590842
    amiricanyeshivish
    Participant

    # Frumguy
    Have you heard in any of those shmuzen the importance of not saying lashon horah on klall Yisroel?

    #2591033
    nevuah
    Participant

    The energetic frequency of elul automaticly leads to introspection, if you didn’t know elul existed youd still feel a more open energy of elul. Elul is actually a bueitifull time, a time for hightened healing energy and beauty from heaven, its not meant for fear, but it’s a natural faze of the ebb and flow of the year, an opportunity at renewal for mankind. It’s not about “kavanah”
    Forcing yourself to have intentions doesn’t change your character. You think if you force yourself out of fear, you’ll change your character? Character is built by choices and life circumstances, and if you feel you wronged someone you can introspect and apologize, I don’t even think elul is meant for that, it’s a renewal of the spirit of mankind, of the soul, it’s not about fear either, cuz fear doesn’t change your character, it’s about love, blessing and joy.
    Fear is not the fruit of God. Awe is, and I keep saying that. Awe is appreciation, for every new day, for the blessings of life.
    Fear is only neccisary when you made a terrible free will choice, and generally the circumstances have to be pretty intense to force someone to make such a decision, or you have to be willfully bad person on purpous to do something terrible.
    Stop letting yourself be driven by this fake drama of “omg I need to change”
    You don’t need to change, change is fake, you _will_ transform, becuse the energy will transform you without your input, all you need to do is look up to heaven and appreciate your blessings and maybe ask yourself who you really wrong. Not as fake virtue signaling but something morally corrupt

    #2591034
    nevuah
    Participant

    We need to let go of this fake fear mongering. Cuz fear leads to guilt and guilt is only neccisary when the action actually earned it, not becuese we need to fit into this fake box of virtue that asks more from us then is neccisary. Elul is a time for renewal and transformation, blessing, kindness, and joy.

    #2591154
    rebEmes
    Participant

    Here’s an idea, there is a chance people are working on different things and not exactly the thing that you want them to be working on. All say kabbalos should be small so that you can stick to it. So maybe the improvements are not happening on a scale that you can personally see it. For example, raising tzedaka amounts, saying shema on time everyday, working on anger issues, trying not to talk badly about others, improving Shabbos observance, the list goes on.

    #2591213
    mobico
    Participant

    Thanks for the Musar. Working on it.

    #2591241
    shlomo_frid
    Participant

    @Frumguy:
    I once heard from a choshuve Yid, the following story: He was stuck for shabes somewhere (maybe china) no mynian; in short 2 other yidn were in the same hotel, so they decided to have the tfilos and seudos together; he mentioned they had a fantastic shabes; And one explantion he sugested is that,
    since they were in a place were there was scarcely any ruchnious, whateer there was , it went to them ; basically the idea that when a situation arises as you are sugesting , that the daveding is on the ‘fast track’ (and i am not sugesting that your perception is true, but on the assumption that it is) , and you are aware of such, indicates that YOU have a fantastic oportunity here to have your tefilah on a higher level, which can also rise the level of the whole tfile of the minyan were you are located; (would we say that the tfila of the minyan were the Ari z’l davened was elevated due to his presence there?)
    In any case, if you are aware of this, that gives you a good oportunity to help your avodah (and of those around you )
    Hatzlacha Rabah , and a gut gezunt yor

    #2591556
    nevuah
    Participant

    Second, fear and guilt do not make a person better, fear and guilt make a person lose touch with themselves and you need to be true to yourself to make proper moral choices.
    So if you think, your creator, who knows how he designed you, is ok with you feeling “guilty” to convince yourself your good, we all know that’s self deception.
    Self deception does not allow for true introspection, self deception puts more weight of falseness on your shoulders when only honesty can cure. I think people feel guilty out of fear. If I feel guilty maybe God will have mercy on me, if I cry maybe I’ll be “saved”
    From what?
    If God is fair, just, and the ultimate of all things good, shouldn’t he _be_ good. Our definition of our creator is a controlling deity.
    Not the true reflection of what God is. Sometimes I wonder if we are actually serving the true creator. Cuz our actions show how afraid we are, even when the Torah talks of “punishments” alot of them are spiritual not even literal. So everyone can calm down.
    There’s a lot of people who have done evil things. If your the one crying into your tehilim in shul on yom kippor your prob not one of those people.
    If you are and you’ve done wrong, youll figure it out, making amends can’t change the past but that doesn’t mean you have to hold on to it like your a terrible person.
    It’s ok to be human.

    #2591579
    147
    Participant

    Since we are not complying with a Torah obligation to blow Shofar this year, there simply is no motivation left to bother with Rabbinical obligations .

    #2591555
    nevuah
    Participant

    The question Is, did you actually do something wrong or are you feeling guilt because that’s what your sapposed to feel
    You should feel guilty only over something you actually did wrong. You should work on character traits that need changing not becuese it’s suddenly elul and now you have to find something where you think your broken to fake virtue signal to yourself that your good. Your already good.
    Fake guilt is still fake, fake change is still fake.
    We need to shift focus from faking virtue, and trying to find problems where there are none.
    Imagine I made you feel guilty when you were trying your best? Does that mean your guilty?
    Imagine I told you over and over again that your a horrid person, but truthfully most of the time your not,
    Would you tolerate someone making you feel that way?
    Introspection isn’t to feighn guilt and to guilt yourself out of fear. It’s to right wrongs that were actually wrong and to forgive yourself for being human.
    We need to stop with this abusive fear mongering
    Anything, I mean anything that comes from negitive, fearful, abusive retoric of fear, control, guilt, is not what God wants from us as God does not seek to control people. That’s actually a sighn of demonic or evil forces,
    Evil by nature means all the things that stand for bad. Like control, guilting, extremism, fear,
    Does that lead you to health, joy?, happiness truth faith, justice?
    No that leads you to guilt, fear, like you can never be good enough, would you tolerate someone treating you that way?
    Nope. So if God made you in his image and _you_ would not tolerate that from a friend, that means that the voice that’s telling you all these cruel things, is not the voice of your creator but something else seeking to control, and harness your willpower for deceptive things like self hatred.
    _that_ shows you who your really serving. Fear =demons
    God=love, justice, patience, fairness, respect.

    #2592416
    PuhLease
    Participant

    Actually, I would stand with the OP. People tend to attempt to be better behaved during the Yomim Noraim, but in reality, shouldn’t people always attempt to modify, enhance and improve their personal behavior? I’ll give an example from my personal life. Please don’t bite my head off.
    . He requested mechilah for his behavior towards me thst year.

    So I asked him “what are you asking mechilah for?”
    He said “just in general”. I will tell you that I’d had.been steaming angry towards my community and at that time, still did. I told him that I wasn’t a priest and I couldn’t give him absolution at that time; to go seek a priest if he felt he needed absolution.

    His response was to ask if I would wait until after Yom Kippur before he replied.

    About two or three hours or so after Kippur was over, after Neilah, after the shofar was blown, after Ma’ariv was davenef after people shook or kissed on the cheek, and after the fast was broken I received an incredibly nasty biting insulting email, one that was so hurtful describing my attributes, telling me how my grandmother a’h the Holocaust survivor was rolling in her grave because of me… and so on and so forth. LESS THAN THREE HOURS AFTER YOM KIPPUR.

    That in of itself sent me the message that Elul doesn’t mean anything. People need to be respectful and act with derech eretz and asking people for mechila whenever they do something that warrants an apology. Not only at Elul. If you did something on Chanukah or Purim or Simchas Torah, ask mechilah IMMEDIATELY. Don’t let negative behavior sit and fester. Just because some says they forgive you (because what else are you going to say during Elul) doesn’t mean they’re going to.

    #2592461

    Puh, rambam says that if you do teshuva but plan to teverse it, you are not getting forgiveness. Let your friend know.

    But there’s nothing wrong trying to improve even if you know that you won’t be always perfect. This is behind the idea of accepting temporary chumros at this time. Esting something yisroel is a popular one, but you can as well try doing something good towards yisroel. Start letting people walk through the door and drive in front of you first. One of my kids while learning to drive slammed the brakes on a major road to let someone merge in … it was scary, but I was proud.

    This is what Ramban means in his igeret: learn to be polite in regular times, then you can deal with anger in emergency. So doing something temporarily csn help start your training

    #2592496
    nevuah
    Participant

    Puh lease I think forgivnesss is a process. something we’ve turned this whole thing into, which is psedo change, is a reflection of legalism rather then heart. Transformation, is a process of understanding wrongs not just “technical apologies and asking for forgiveness” it doesn’t get to the heart of the matter. I’ve known countless times where I really messed up but didn’t realize at the time cuz I justified it. With growth and understanding I realized how wrong I was to treat people a certain way, it wasn’t neccisarily a matter of asking forgiveness but a profound transformation in _my_ heart.
    I think, like I stated before, this was the reason for the animal sacrifices,karbanos, cuz the process of taking an animal you value, going through the whole process transforms the heart. It’s humbling and neccisary. I think mechilah is about making amends, and taking responsibility, and also having enouph of an understanding of morality so you can have a healthy understanding of right and wrong.
    Again I don’t believe this time is about guilt and fake virtue signaling but about peace love, kindliness and most of all transformation.
    We have turned this time and our lifestyle into a game because of fear. “Let me check all the boxes so I’m technically nullified”
    That’s not transformation and regardless I think most of all we need to forgive ourselves. Legalists mindsets change people from inherint moral acters to fake virtue signaling out of fear which inherinitly leads to behaviour that is unforgiving towards _oursleves_ I think we need to learn to be human again, making mistakes like humans do, expecting less from ourselves and also living in reality.
    I think once we forgive ourselves we can then forgive others.
    If I’m overly strict with myself, it automaticly leads to self deception. Self deception leads to a lack of connection to realistic ideals, thus allowing myself to justify bad behavior.
    A connection to truth matters. It creates balance and harmony not just for me but for everyone around me. At the same time we are always going to come into scanarios where people feel we treated them unfairly, this is life.
    Forgiveness, realistic thinking

    #2592598
    ccb45
    Participant

    147:

    The torah says that we should listen to whatever the they tell you!

    #2592602
    The little I know
    Participant

    I’m not sure where some of this discussion is going. But there is anotgher misconception to dispel. We seem to take certain psukim as definitive of teshuvah, and they are not. Try this one – מחיתי כעב פשעיך. My takeaway is that teshuvah results in complete erasure of sins. Question – If I changed my character, does that alter the past? Does that mean that I did not commit those aveiros? How do we eliminate things from history? Answer – only Hashem can do that, and as with anything else that is Divine, it exceeds my intellectual grasp. But that aspect is Hashem’s business, not mine. My piece is doing teshuvah. Jusr erasing sins does NOT constitute teshuvah. And perusal of all of Divrei Chazal and the many seminal works of mussar address this in detail. Teshuvah is about seeking to return to HKB”H. We wrecked our relationship with Him by committing aveiros. We are seeking to return to Him. That connection is the goal. HKB”H will clean the slate as per His judgment.

    Elul, if not utilized properly, can be wasted. Yes, there may be people that harbor their resentments, Yom Kippur not withstanding. The social aspect of Elul appears to have been wasted. Did they get Hashem’s forgiveness? I haven’t a clue. The three seforim do not exist in the physical world for anyone to view. Perhaps a good dose of preparation for Aseres Yimai Teshuvah would be to mend the fences with others. Outside help might actually accomplish something for those that cannot master it alone. For me, I would prefer to see the gift in Elul, and squandering it would be a grave disappointment.

    #2592712
    nevuah
    Participant

    The little I know, let’s establish what sin is, first before we make vague statements about “get right with HKBH” these are very vague terms and when I hear something like that it sounds threatening, to me at least. Vague terms lead to guilt, sounds like groveling and ends up making people feel like being themselves is some form for the ultimate sin.
    Vague terms also don’t lead to clarity, but guilt.
    Again the only forces that use guilt is not forces that are sources in Devine will. Sources that use guilt have its roots in control. God has _authority_ but, he is not controlling. So let’s differentiate these things.
    We need to ground our views in reality. And also connect these views with real concrete real life understanding so we don’t get lost in vague guilt tripping.
    What are sins in the first place?
    What constitutes as a sin?
    How do these sins, lets say, manifest or represent in real life,
    At the same time, how can we fix and make amends for our “sins”
    Vague statements make the whole person feel guilty

    #2592713
    nevuah
    Participant

    I’m asking this because I think it’s time we talk tachlis and get to the root of everything so we can actually address reality realistically, I also want to see if this question can be answered with clarity and if we are just regurgitating whatever we are told or we have concrete understanding of right and wrong

    #2592715
    nevuah
    Participant

    Second, what does get right with HKBH mean? Sounds like a threat. Get right or else?
    How do we “get right with God”
    Vague terms leads to guilt not clarity. And is that really the point of “elul” or is this something we tell ourselves to feel like we can control the fear

    #2592886
    The little I know
    Participant

    Nevuah:

    I can’t begin to grasp what your challenge is. My point is that forgiveness in Elul, with the obvious focus on sin is a biproduct, neither the mission, nor the avodah. The focus on teshuvah in Elul is the returning to Hashem, His embrace, our connection, our dveikus. Obviously, the abstinence from sin is required. And our work on that is requisite during Elul as it is year round. Difference is, Hashem is beckoning to us, expressing His love for us, His desire to embrace us. Prioritizing our connection is the avodah. You can address defining sin, and the sefer Shaarei Teshuvah is a great resource. Elul is about the relationship. Within the embrace of Hashem, past transgressions are devalued, even to the point of mechilah. Elul is not a time of din. It is a time of ratzon and rachamim. Different angle. You wrote 3 comments that have a challenging tone. I’m clueless what point you were challenging.

    #2593160
    nevuah
    Participant

    Notice how you didn’t Answer the question but gave a broad answer and told me to read a book. I can respect that but again, these are all vague answers. My challenge is if you don’t know the rules yourself you can hold yourself to standards that are unnecisary, and then elul leads more to a guilt trip and fake allegiance to “getting close to God” which I will rouphly translate to “losing yourself”
    And then it’s a whole rabbit hole of remorse for….what exactly?

    #2593161
    nevuah
    Participant

    The rachmim you are talking about is also fake “rachimim” another underhanded guilt trip,
    Again if we cannot fully define what a sin actually is we can’t fix ourselves. And when I say “fix ourselves” I think “make amends” is a more accurate description

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