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This post is a continuation to the comments in the “ENTERTAINING VIDEOS: Neturei Karta” article. It got way too long so i figured i’ll bring it over to the CR. If you care to read up, here’s the link http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/Headlines+&+Breaking+Stories/104234/ENTERTAINING+VIDEOS:+Neturei+Karta+Confusion+Outside+UN.html#comments
Please read up before commenting.
Popa, thank you for bringing yourself to light. I could have not said it better myself. Thanks 🙂
I will respond to all of it when I have a few free minutes, but I do need to point out that you never answered my question. you believe they are responsible for our blood being spilled. The question is, exactly how is NK responsible for our blood? Can you give me one murder that can me linked directly to the NK. I already gave you many Zionist examples.
Today’s NK are clowns looking for attention. They make for good Peerim entertainment and do not even deserve the title of roidef – only shmoiger, meaning shoiteh, menuval vegas ruach suits these clowns.
Indeed, the tzioinim are responsible for far more loss of Jewish life and property than these clowns are. These clowns had some impact and did create a chilul Hashem at first, but today they’re way past the expiration date on their act.
Thanks for joining us in the CR.
Ok, I will spell it out as best I can, although I was not aware that this is contentious.
A. We will start with the premise, that the IDF responds often with less force than necessary and proper under the circumstances. And that the reason for that is we are afraid of making the world too mad at us, and alienating the few friends we have left- particularly the USA.
Our example throughout this will be when we boarded the ship, the Mavi Marmara, which was bringing presumed weapons to Gaza.
B. We will then make the simple step of assuming, that IDF soldiers are often injured or killed during these operations, in ways they would not have been if proper force had been used.
So in our example, we will say that had the ship been torpedoed, as is proper for an invading vessel, the IDF soldier who was thrown off the deck and fell several stories, would not have been hurt.
C. We will then say, that our civilians are also often hurt as a result of this, since the military operations cannot be as effective.
In our example, we will say that if subsequent boats succeed in bringing rockets or explosives in, it may be because we are not willing to torpedo them. This is not a great example, since the Mavi Marmara incident was actually successful in stopping that boat.
D. We will assume that public demonstrations, lobbying, and press, affect public opinion. This is presumably why people make these demonstrations.
There were much bad press about the Mavi Marmara, with all sorts of anti semites and NK reshaim accusing us of using “disproportionate force”. As if one is supposed to use force only proportionate to the people trying to kill you.
E. We will assume that governments represent their citizens interests. We can see that governments act in the interests of their citizens, and -for example- if the French people are opposed to us, their government will represent them in that. Thus, we should assume that demonstrations, lobbying, and press influence public opinion, which in turn influence government action.
(alternatively, we can imagine that demonstrations merely serve to convince governments of what public opinion is, but the effect is the same.)
Many world governments singled us out for criticism in the aftermath of this incident, and it will probably negatively affect how we are able to respond to future incidents. Additionally, it hurt our relationship with Turkey, which may not have happened if the rest of the world didn’t agree with the reshaim of NK.
Therefore, we can easily say, that bad PR, leads to dangerous and ineffective military action, which leads to lives lost.
The reshaim of NK are among the criticizers of the Mavi Marmara incident, which cannot be criticized with a straight face if one has the slightest inkling of what happened on that boat. I found the reshaim’s protests on their website.
Now, your colleague “Peacemaker” seems to not care about what happens to Jewish people who agree with the “zionists”. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/104434/Turkey-Releases-Names-Of-IDF-Members-Involved-In-Flotilla.html But excuse me if I do care.
If you disagree with this, please specify which step. Please do not litter your response with the issue of whether we are safer with the christians or moslems. That really is not the issue. You can put that in another post.
Like 600 Kilo Bear said, what the NK doesn’t affect anything, and certainly not world politics and military events.
I read your response. It was very long.
I see you saying two things.
A. The zionists are the cause of all arab attacks. I will concede this for purposes of this discussion, since it is irrelevant.
B. You want me to bring clear proof of a person who was killed, where the NK were a “but for” cause of the attack.
I cannot bring such a case, since it doesn’t exist. Every attack has multiple causes.
But, that doesn’t mean their actions don’t contribute.
You can’t show that Al Sharpton was a cause of the murder of Yankel Rosenbaum either. But his action certainly was a cause, and was almost as bad as the NK do every day (it was worse in that instance, but if you aggregate everything the NK do, they are much worse.)
So, perhaps you think that there are no consequences to actions where we can’t see a clear unequivocal connection, and the action is a sole cause. But, that is ridiculous.
Now, rant about the zionists again. It is irrelevant.
go away.
NK arent equal to Nazis, they are equivelant to the Judenrat
In Pre-war Europe anyone who spoke to the authorities about other jews was known as a MOSER
In post-war America too.
You, sir, are quite pathetically mistaken.
You have imposed a ridiculous standard, by which you measure their actions. You refuse to believe they could be doing any harm, unless there are verified specific examples of where harm would not have been done without them.
By that standard, you could not show that smoking causes cancer.
For some reason, you need to believe that they aren’t killing us and collaborating with the enemy.
From the fact that your posts are mostly just long rants about the “zionists”, I’m guessing that is what is driving you to believe that anyone who opposes the “zionists” must be good.
So, like I said before; go away. I have nothing more to say. We don’t agree on the premises, so there is no reason to discuss.
NK are not kapos or Judenrat. That term is reserved for “people” like Noam Chomsky, Uri Avnery and Gilad Atzmon.
They are clowns who need to find a new act in time for next Peerim.
Chomsky does have some influence in certain circles and he is a true kapo. Same with Uri Avnery. Atzmon is an up and coming kapo who goes even further than those 2 do and is out-and-out anti-Jewish.
The NK have no influence anywhere except over a few misfits whom they recruit for demonstrations.
Meeting with Ahmadinejad, Does not make you a Clown, It makes you a MOSER
Clowns meet with other clowns, not presidents of counties that have Nuclear weapons
Wow, that’s a pretty eloquent post. Too bad it is just more disguising instead of responding.
I asked why you can’t believe that what they are doing is dangerous to us.
You respond that one should not hate based on beliefs.
Where do you dream that up? Are there now distinctions between beliefs and logic? Do you usually believe things which are not logical? Will you make this about the word I chose, which you assigned meaning to which does not even exist?
Besides, is it proper for someone to do something which be believes, even might, lead to Jews being killed?
The onus is on you to prove that what they are doing is not harmful and dangerous.
And presumably you should use your own standard of evidence, where we need clear and convincing evidence showing how in every single case of violence against Jews, the NK’s actions logically could not have contributed.
And until then, I will you hate them. ??? ?????? ? ????.
(Also, nobody has ever shown a single case of lung cancer which definitely would not have happened but for smoking. You are exactly correct that there is scientific evidence. You are exactly incorrect, because scientific evidence is based on what makes sense. Which is exactly what I’m showing.)
Meeting a head of state, whether nuclear (Russia, China, etc.) or not, doesn’t make one a “moser”. You need to learn the halachas before throwing terms around. Even meeting Eichmann or Hitler wouldn’t make someone a moser.
Shlishi: They are being Moser millions from K’lal Yisrael to someone who wants the capability to destroy us. Whether for technical reasons they may not have the Din of Mosrim, what they are doing definitely constitutes Mesirah. And if they actually give him any money they become Rodphim, plain and simple.
No i do not go around hating people based on a believe that has no facts. Religion is the only believe, anything else is based on facts or logic.
That is apikorsus. That Hashem exists is completely logical.
Operating a significant number of years and not one single incident as a direct consequence, that’s a fact.
I honestly have no idea what you are looking for. You want an arab to stab a jew at one of their protests? And if that doesn’t happen then what they are doing is fine? If logic shows that it should have an effect, it is still fine because in 20 years no arab stabbed a jew at one of their protests?
And even if an arab did stab a jew at one of their protests, then you would be convinced? No, because maybe he would have anyway.
I dont just believe that smoking causes cancer, i know its a scientific fact killing close to a half a million people yearly.
It is scientific fact, because we can see that more people who smoke get cancer than people who don’t smoke. And because we can identify a link which makes sense.
Nobody ever pointed to a cancer patient and could say definitely that smoking caused his cancer. You could not convict a man of retzicha for forcing someone to smoke for 50 years until he died of lung cancer.
Whatever you want to call it, moser and rodef are entirely inapplicable regarding them. It is simply twisting the terms.
Simply from the extremely patronizing tone of ill_be_strong I’m inclined to agree with popa whose responses are actually straight to the point.
If Speaking to Ahmadinejad doesnt make you a Moser, then explain exactly C-Halacha what a Moser is……
“If logic shows that it should have an effect, it is still fine because in 20 years no arab stabbed a jew at one of their protests?”
Thats exactly my point, both evidence and logic shows that it has no effect. The logical part is, why would an Arab kill a Jew because some dude said he wants to be friends with the Arabs.
You are confusing the issue. The harm is from our inability to fight back. That has a clear logical link.
Also, you still have not responded why it is fine for them to do something which is logically dangerous, based on some internet poster (me) not being able to find a definite effect to your level of proof.
If I am correct and they are contributing to our not being able to fight back, shouldn’t they stop?
Shouldn’t they need to prove that is not happening, before they can continue?
Aren’t they at least being reckless, even under your definitions? (I personally think they are being purposeful, which is more than reckless, but we can proceed that you should at least agree they are being reckless.)
I will note that under the common law, reckless killing is manslaughter, while extreme reckless killing is murder.
ill_be_strong-
I haven’t formed any strong opinions either way, I was only noting that it seemed to me you were spending a lot of time talking about the way you believe he forms his opinions and why that way is wrong. Sounded patronizing to me. I think Popa has a pretty good head and your bashing rather then concise responses gave me the impression of someone being defensive of a pre-conceived notion without being willing to listen. That’s all, and maybe I completely missed the boat.
I see. So your position is that the NK aren’t concerned about the effects, because they are only a few people, and can’t have a great effect.
That is true, they are only a few people, and they cannot have a great effect.
Yet, I question:
That is true of everyone who tries to cause effects, and the aggregate effect is felt. Does everyone really have a ptur that they only contributed a little bit?
yita, why would you be less offended when popa told someone to “go away”?
ill_be_strong-
No, it was more the general trend; a vibe I got. But I hear you. And I apologize if I misjudged you.
Let me just be clear, I’m not advocating or approve their actions, i don’t. I just don’t see a great danger in their action. The hate response doesn’t add-up with their actions/consequences.
That is good. I actually thought you were one of them.
The hate does not stem from the consequences. It stems from the callousness to our suffering, and the intention to harm us.
Now, you say they actually don’t intend to harm us, and are only pretending to, and justify that their actions are of small effect anyway.
Perhaps that is true, and perhaps not. But it sure seems like they’re trying to harm us, and you can’t fault me for thinking so. It is what they profess after all. (They certainly profess that they are trying to influence Israeli government action, which will harm us, as I explained. That is what I am referring to.)
And they certainly are callous to our suffering. We are being slaughtered in the streets, while they meet with and praise the enemy.
Maybe you think it is all a game they are playing, but it is well played, and I think they are for real.
So I hate them.
Is that unjustified?
The NK hate is coming from the less observant and more Zionist segment of the frum world playing RIGHT INTO THESE SCHMOHAWKS’ HANDS!
They WANT to be hated! They WANT negative attention! On the other hand, if you IGNORE them, they’ll go away. IF you can do something real, like put them in cherem as was done in Vienna, some of them may leave the fold. But to rant about them online or even in person, except by laughing at them (as the Indian man basically did and as I would do with a camera in the background if I ever came upon them) is just what they want.
Even Mad Mahmoud knows they are a joke. That is why he only had 2 of them over this time around.
You have to be doing something that really endangers Jews to be a moiser and a kapo. Those titles pertain to the left in EY and perhaps to Froman who does live in EY and is basically putting the city which he serves as rav in danger by his antics. The Sikriki and the other ShaBaK employees who claim to be NK in RBS are in some very low category, albeit perhaps not moiser but possibly roidef, because they are physically hurting Yidden.
However, the karta klowns of Monsey, Willy, London and even Hirsch in EY are just that – the Klueless Klutz Karta.
If Speaking to Ahmadinejad doesnt make you a Moser, then explain exactly C-Halacha what a Moser is……
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Look up Solomon Dwek. That is a moiser al pi halacha. Also look up the PETA activists Philip and Hannah Schein. They are moisrim. If you want another one, try Robert A. Kasirer. A moiser is an informer, in other words, someone who turns Jews in to the civil authorities or who “exposes crimes” by publicly condemning Jewish practices and their practitioners. All of them should have a misse meshune, as we request in birkas haminim.
There is a very slight case for calling NK who went to Iran roidfim, but their actions really don’t endanger a single Jew. They are just minor irritants, so far off the wall that no one can take them seriously anymore.
Kilo Bear is correct. They really don’t make any impact, and are not worth discussing. I’m not sure why I started with this on the other thread.
If they don’t make an impact, why do a lotta folks here get all riled up and unwound whenever they hit the news? And why does this site have a dime a dozen stories about their activites every Monday and Thursday?
The ones who get riled up are the less observant and more tzioini contingent, and they use these NK as a way of showing what happens when you do not accept Rav Kook’s shitta and all kinds of heterim and kulois that go along with it.
They try to lump every non-Zionist charedi ben Torah in with this nonsense, even though they must know by now that the Klueless Klutz Kartel is in de facto cherem across the board (meaning that they are too ridiculous to bother putting in cherem).
I would not even call the KKKarta the Westboro of Judaism. They are more like the wise menof Chelm at this point.
they are really bad people. anyone who distorts judaism from the torah-true (read:only) version is a bad person. but i dont see them as being worse then other segments of “judaism”. crazier? certainly. more threatening to the very fabric of yiddishkeit? nope.
I know what THEY claim their intent is. I also know that THEY suffer from delusions of grandeur that go back to their failure to attract any attention as far back as cheder.
They are clowns and fools looking for attention. Rebbetzin Bloy AH was in contact with Khomeini YMS quietly and no one even knew this until after she passed away. She may or may not have accomplished anything but she also did not do any harm or make Jews look foolish.
The Klueless Klutz Kartel fools allow Ahmadinejad to use them on television that is also watched by 25,000 Jews in Iran.
Satmar and other sane, normal anti-Zionists are the ones who suffer the most from these clowns. Satmar is able to do avoidas hakoidesh in Yemen because they do things the right way. The Klueless Karta Klowns are a collection of oisvorfen, meshuggeners and senile old men who don’t believe one word that they say and they make everyone else look bad.
This (third-hand) story sums up who the Klueless Klutz Klowns are:
Someone saw a friend invite Chaim Fryman, a YU graduate who is one of the more pathetic NK characters, over for Shabbos.
He asked his friend – don’t you know that Chaim Fryman is in cherem?
Response: “Chaim Fryman isn’t important enough to be put in cherem!”
These guys aren’t important enough to be called roidfim or moisrim. I actually communicate with a few of them in London, EY and NY (none of whom are important enough to have been put in any sort of cherem although one constantly appears wearing a kaffiyeh at demonstrations in London). The trash they send me is beyond ludicrous.
Of course, they don’t know that the only reason I want to hear from them is so that I have new material for Creedmoor.
i dont know why there is so much hate about them.but i know that in the time of the Churban,One Jew and his followers also went to the enemy General,and he was hated for it just the same.His name was R’yochanan ben Zakai….Check the gemara in Gittin 57 which brings this Maase.What is the difference between Nk and Him ,He was also nearly killed for going to speak to the enemy…
the NK are right for going and who knows how many jews are still alive because of them..
Btw Ahmadunejad never said he hates jews his rants have only been about zionists….
the biggest jewish community in arab lands today is in IRAN!!!!Thanks to israel which got them kicked out of all others..
look up “genocide in the holy land”,but more important,”Holocaust victims accuse” by rabbi moshe shonfeld..
YMB: I’ll give you another person who went to the Romans: Bar Kamtza. There is a right way and a wrong way and a right time and wrong time to meet and negotiate with our enemies. Most people seem to think that what the NK are doing (actively supporting someone who wants to kill lots of Jews) falls under the “wrong way” category.
BK massered to the Romans. What does nk do that is more like BK than like RYBZ?
Giving money and showing political support that hurts Israel (and by extension Jews) in the political forum. Also, why go to Israel’s enemies when they have more powerful allies who will support us.
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