- This topic has 37 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 10 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
What’s wrong with just saying “My cousin lives in Israel”.
Eretz Yisroel is the proper name.
Do you call the Kosel the Kosel (or Kotel if Sefardic) or do you call it the “Wailing Wall” (or “Western Wall”)? If you call it the Kosel/Kotel, you should call Eretz Yisroel, Eretz Yisroel.
Rav Zelig Reuven Bengis was once asked why the traditional “Eretz Yisroel” was abandoned by the Zionists, who called their state only “Yisroel”. He famously replied:
על מה אבדה ה”ארץ”, על עזבם את תורתיYO
Hi, you’ve been asking variations of this question a bit lately. Please help me understand, you ask “What’s wrong with just saying “My cousin lives in Israel”.”
Now obviously there is nothing wrong. You seem upset that it isnt the “frummer” thing to do.
so here is my question
do you care what other people think, ie do you have a desire to conform to arbitrary labels of “frummer” behavior?
If so, then follow them call it shul, call it Erez yisorel. Etc
If you dont care , then who cares , if others consider it not “frummer”?In short I dont understand caring that other consider it not as frum, but not carign enough to call it Eretz yisorel. Can you please enlighten me
One of my Rebbeim would say its easy to be frummer, it is far harder to be frum.
Do you also say “tabernacle” and “phylacteries”?
It’s better to call it Eretz Yisroel. Israel = Zionist state. Eretz Yisroel = Jewish homeland.
Ubiq,
100% spot on
From the fact that it bothers zionists like you, I say it’s the right thing to do
Until 1948 even the zionists called it “Eretz Yisrael”. Under the British the official Hebrew name for the country was פלסטין– א״י, and the א״י stood for ארץ ישראל, though many zionists complained that the name פלסטין was a statement that the land is not Jewish., and the א״י really stood for אינה יהודית. Only when they declared the state did they change the name, and they did it to reject the traditions that went with the traditional name.
So when speaking English English I say “Israel”, but when speaking Jewish English, let alone Yiddish or Hebrew, I say Eretz Yisroel.
Yo
“In other words, what social pressures are causing him to doubt his previous appellation of the country?”He joined a new club. To be a full fledged member there’s a uniform, a secret language etc. He wants to be s member so the BT wears the velvet yarmulka and says Eretz Yisroel.
I don’t get the problem.
If you want to be a member you can do these things too.If you don’t want to be a member so dont do your own thing and let us have our club
YO
“This is a very shallow, chitoniusdik, neurotic club, no?”Again, and we are going in circles, if you feel that way don’t join. Why do you care.
Do you think the club members care that you think they are ” very shallow, chitoniusdik, neurotic” why do you care that they think you aren’t “frummer”?
I see lots of sefarim that say they were printed in E. Israel. It took me a while to realize that the E doesn’t stand for East.
Saying “Eretz Yisrael” shows rejection of the zionist government, either because you hold the establishment of the secular “Medinat Yisrael” violates halacha, or because you reject the position of the zionists that “Israel” consists only of the territory over which the Medinah claims sovereignty, excluding (in particular) the West Bank. Therefore both anti-zionist Hareidim, and “fanatical” Religious Zionists both have good reason to refer to “Eretz Yisrael” rather than the medinah (“Israel”).
The terms state of Israel and land of Israel are not interchangeable. One can be within the land of Israel without being in the state of Israel ( in places such as gaza, south Lebanon and parts of Jordan and Egypt) and similarly one can be within the state of Israel without being in the land of Israel (Eilat, parts of the golan heights) besides for that the two terms have nothing to do with one another, the state of Israel is a secular country, while the land of Israel is a biblical region with extra kedusha and mitvos if living there
The terms state of Israel and land of Israel are not interchangeable. One can be within the land of Israel without being in the state of Israel ( in places such as gaza, south Lebanon and parts of Jordan and Egypt) and similarly one can be within the state of Israel without being in the land of Israel (Eilat, parts of the golan heights) besides for that the two terms have nothing to do with one another, the state of Israel is a secular country, while the land of Israel is a biblical region with extra kedusha and mitvos if living there
The State of Israel to Eretz Yisroel is no different than other countries, such as Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria that — like the State of Israel — is also partially in Eretz Yisroel.
Referring to it as “Israel” is the same as pre-’48 referring to it as “Palestine”. Yidden before ’48 called it Eretz Yisroel — in their everyday speech — and they continue to do so today. They tended not to call it Palestine then or Israel now.
KJ,
1. David haMelech disagrees with you. When he ran away to Gatt he said that he was expelled from Hashem’s inheritance (Shmuel Alef 26:19). Chazal also disagree with you. The first mishna in Gittin gives the northern border as Acco. The former was because Gatt was not part of Shaul’s kingdom and the latter because it was the border of Jewish settlement. Rabbi Menachem Leibtag has an online analysis entitled Masei: The Borders of the Land of Israel/
2. The Golan is part of Ever haYarden. Eilat is near Etzion Geber, which was conquered by Shlomo haMelech and again by the IDF. Both were kibbushei rabbim.
3. It is not correct to call a state as the Land of ——. One does not, for example, call France the Land of the French. The term Medinat Yisrael was chosen to signify that the state belongs to all Jews.
Easy solution. Tell them, “my cousin lives Yerushalayim, Petach Tikva or Bet Shemesh” (wherever they live). Even better, make Aliyah and say “my cousin lives here”.
Yabia, Israel isn’t the right name. It’s Eretz Yisroel. It’s 100% more frum to call a Jewish place by its Hebrew name, than an English name. It’s not that difficult.
People who say Israel (instead of the proper Eretz Yisroel) do so to wear their Zionism on their sleeves and in order to prove they’re not a frummy.
When I was a kid we called that country Eretz Yisroel. “Israel” felt as weird as calling Shabbos “Saturday.” The super frum called Eretz Yisroel “Eretz Hakaydish.”
YO
“Nah, I think people say EY to “sound frum”. ”
Yep. so what?
calling Shabbos “Saturday.”
I call it Shabbos to sound frum.
I call it Shabbos to sound frum
to what crowd? (lol)
The frum crowd, of course.
The frum crowd, of course.
you might try “Shabbos kaydish.”
The secular term isn’t Israel, it’s Aretz (say: ahh-retz). Now you can fit in more comfortably with Club Zionism.
As far back as I remember, as a very young child, “Eretz Yisrael” was a part of the Judaism I grew up with. Before I ever heard of Zionism, Politics, or Refugees, there was a place called Eretz Yisrael, part of our lexicon both at home and in school. It was definitely not to “sound” frum!
Avrohom Avinu was promised that Eretz Yisrael would belong to his decendants. Getting us into Eretz Yisrael was was one of the significant things Hashem did with us after He took us out of Mitzrayim, sung with gusto in Dayeinu. That was the place that Moshe Rabeinu begged to enter, and about which the meraglim spoke negatively, much to our detriment for thousands of years since. Eretz Yisroel is/was the land referred to in Shema; in the parsha of “Vehaya im Shamoa”, which we were warned we would lose if we turn away from Hashem. You get the idea. There was never any reason for me to start calling it Israel!
As an adult, I do sometimes use the term “Israel”; mostly in political discussion, or when checking flight arrivals and departures.
At times, it does somehow sound less complicated to just say “Israel” when referring to my destination for a yomtov, or a place to learn Torah. However, when I do that, it really feels empty; like something is missing. The depth of its meaning to me, and the kedusha that is woven into its fabric, somehow feels incomplete when I refer to it as Israel. Israel is just another location, albeit where many of my relatives live. Eretz Yisrael is the holy land, given to us Jews, by Hashem, and it is that holiness that is the basic reason that we go there, despite terrorism, and despite the fact that there are many other beautiful places on Earth to visit.
It’s not a frumkeit thing. It’s an identity thing. “Israel” is just too shallow a description for a land with which I have a relationship! Eretz Yisrael describes the only place I know which transcends the description of a location.
Re: EY…… transcends description of a location.
You mean locations like 13th, Central ,J ,Lee ,Collins Avenues, RT. 59 , The Loop, Eastern Parkway ,Lakewoods with their bagel holes and pizza joints?? These are the main highways in Gan Eden where the olam dance with the Shechina with a dveikus and simcha.” It is not correct to call a state as the Land of ——. ”
Land of( Germanic) Land of( Latin)
England Bulgaria
Scotland Latvia
Poland Romania
Finland Italia= Italy
Deutschland= GermanyEtc. Etc.
how many other states in existence in 1948 didn’t have ‘Land Of ‘in title [Putting aside Latin America With Borders largely artificial And arbitrary] ?
Thinking Out Loud, that was a really beautiful explanation of your connection to EY.
יהוד מדינתא from Ezra 5:8 Ben Gurion and his chevra may not have known, but they were on the right track.
The OP is really upset that frum circles don’t accept him when he calls Sukkos the “Festival of Booths.” All these threads are just warming up to that.
I’m actually starting to suspect character trolling. No real human I’ve ever met is this bad at hiding his insecurity.
twisted,
one of the options Ben-Gurion and Co rejected was..Yehuda/Judea
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.