Feminism

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  • #1162272

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    as it is for a man to have a job as a babysitter

    Speaking as someone who was in high demand as a babysitter when I was a teen, I take exception to that categorization. In fact, I feel the experience I had as a babysitter as a teen better prepared me for fatherhood.

    The Wolf

    #1162273

    philosopher
    Member

    Just-a-guy , what in the world does food stamps have in correlation with babysitting?

    #1162274

    anon for this
    Participant

    clearheaded, why is it “unseemly” for a man to babysit? Is it also unseemly for a man to care for his own children? What if the children are related to him?

    And why is it unseemly for a woman to be a firefighter, assuming she meets all of the (non-adjusted) physical requirements for the job?

    #1162275

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    So a non-Jewish woman who has no connection to Judaism whatsoever should be barred from being a firefighter (assuming she can fulfill the requirements) because its unbecoming? Remember, we are talking about secular society rules, not Jewish ones here.

    And I work for a union based company – should a union member who is female get an automatic lower pay rate because she is female? Everyone who joins at a certain position gets the exact same wage. Should they lower womens salaries?

    #1162276

    Kasha
    Member

    In Egypt, when we were slaves, they were experts at assigning men to women’s jobs, and women to men’s jobs.

    As a form of torture.

    #1162277

    Just-a-guy
    Member

    Kasha- what does the ability of father’s and husbands to vote have to do with whether women should be able to vote?

    The answer to why children should not be able to vote is not that their father’s can vote. Its that society makes the collective decision that generally, they don’t have the maturity or intellectual capacity to vote.

    So please, share with us why women should not be able to vote?

    #1162279

    Just-a-guy
    Member

    Clearheaded- the point is that people do things that are unbecoming out of necessity.

    #1162280

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    In Egypt, when we were slaves, they were experts at assigning men to women’s jobs, and women to men’s jobs.

    As a form of torture.

    Ah, so you’re saying that women who want to be firefighters are doing it to torture themselves?

    The Wolf

    #1162281

    Kasha
    Member

    Just-a-guy: Their father or husband should be making the decision.

    #1162282

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Kasha, we are not talking about making someone do backbreaking labor or sewing. We are talking about people VOLUNTARILY choosing careers. If a man has talent at something, isn’t that where he should be focusing his skills?

    Why is it ok for both men and women to be teachers? Both involve caring for children.

    #1162283

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Just-a-guy: Their father or husband should be making the decision.

    Why should I make a voting decision for my wife? Is she incapable of determining who to vote for?

    The Wolf

    #1162284

    Kasha
    Member

    No Wolf. To torture society. That is what feminism is about.

    #1162285

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    To torture society. That is what feminism is about.

    No, it’s not. Don’t be silly.

    The Wolf

    #1162286

    Just-a-guy
    Member

    Kasha- your answer is the intellectual equivalent of just saying “because,” and nothing more. Why should the husband and/or father be making the decision?

    #1162287

    Kasha
    Member

    “Its that society makes the collective decision that generally, they don’t have the maturity or intellectual capacity to vote.

    So please, share with us why women should not be able to vote?”

    Just-a-guy: Like yitayningwut explained earlier on the thread, women don’t share men’s intellectual acumen.

    #1162288

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    women don’t share men’s intellectual acumen.

    Meaning exactly what? That women are stupider? Or incapable of reasoning out who to vote for?

    Exactly what do you mean by your statement?

    The Wolf

    #1162289

    philosopher
    Member

    Wolf please don’t take offense, but I do think babysitting as a profession belongs to a woman.

    Just-a-guy, are you talking about babysitting as a father babysits his kids or babysitting as a profession? Those are two seperate things.

    I do think a babysitting profession belongs to a woman. There are unbecoming manly jobs for men too and a man does not need to act in a woman’s role for parnossah. That’s doubly unbecoming.

    #1162290

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf please don’t take offense, but I do think babysitting as a profession belongs to a woman.

    I didn’t take offense. I took exception.

    I was a darned good babysitter. There were plenty of parents who had the opportunity to choose a female and chose me because they felt I was better suited for the job.

    The Wolf

    #1162291

    anon for this
    Participant

    Kasha, how exactly does the existence of female firefighters “torture” society (again, assuming they meet the same physical requirements as male firefighters)?

    I’d think that if firefighting companies can choose from female candidates as well as male candidates, then the average caliber of firefighters can only improve (since firefighting companies would choose the best candidates). People and property have a better chance of surviving fires. If that’s “torture”, then bring it on.

    #1162292

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    A father doesn’t babysit his kids – he watches his kids.

    And Wolf, I’m laughing at the “stupider” comment – was that intentional?

    Kasha, my father died when I was a young child. So I had neither a husband nor father when I turned 18. Who was my voice then if I didn’t have the right to vote?

    #1162293

    Kasha
    Member

    anon for this, you sound like you’d make a fine Egyptian slave-master. ๐Ÿ™‚

    #1162295

    Kasha
    Member

    The thought that one is entitled to a “voice” is erroneous.

    #1162296

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Wolf, I’m surprised no one tried to play the yichud card with that LOL.

    Kasha, you haven’t answered my Union question.

    #1162297

    anon for this
    Participant

    Kasha, sorry, I don’t get it. The Egyptian slave masters forced women to work at tasks they were not able/ qualified to do. I agree that women should not be forced to work as firefighters. Neither should men, for that matter. But what does that have to do with barring women from fighting fires, if it’s a job they are interested in and qualified for?

    #1162298

    Kasha
    Member

    anon for this, you’re skirting using the terminology that the Egyptians forced women to do men’s jobs (and vice versa.) So it is long established that certain jobs are men’s jobs and certain are women’s jobs.

    #1162299

    Just-a-guy
    Member

    Thank you Kasha, we’ve finally gotten to an answer.

    And now here’s my response. I think you are just wrong.

    #1162301

    Just-a-guy
    Member

    Kasha- the idea that one has a voice comes from the way secular societies such as that in Israel and the U.S. chooses to govern themselves- and that is what we are talking about here- whether women should be allowed to vote in secular society.

    #1162302

    squeak
    Participant

    SJS- in such a situation, Halacha demands that you get married as early as 3 years old, so that you are not without a master.

    JK. Truthfully, I think that the older brother becomes the halachic surrogate (for matters such as accepting kedushin on the girl’s behalf and other examples).

    #1162303

    philosopher
    Member

    anon, a father babysitting one’s own children falls in the category of helping ones wife or kids, and is considered a chesed not a profession.

    Hashem gave specific and different characteristics for each gender for them to fulfill their respective roles. Just because this instinctive understanding has become blurred in this immoral, liberal, mixed up society does not change the directive in nature that Hashem created.

    #1162304

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Squeak, I have no brothers ๐Ÿ™‚

    #1162305

    anon for this
    Participant

    Kasha, Egyptians forced women to do work they were not willing or able to do well. You are saying that I am just like an Egyptian slave master because I think that women should be allowed to fight fires if they are able/ qualified to do so. Do I have that right?

    (And here I didn’t even know that the Egyptians forced Jewish women to work as firefighters. Who says the CR isn’t educational?)

    #1162307

    Kasha
    Member

    “Kasha- the idea that one has a voice comes from the way secular societies such as that in Israel and the U.S. chooses to govern themselves- and that is what we are talking about here- whether women should be allowed to vote in secular society.”

    And I was asked MY opinion. My opinion, based on Torah hashkofos and not secular hashkofos on how a secular society (yes, a secular society) should operate, is what I offered.

    #1162308

    charliehall
    Participant

    I happen to be working at FDNY HQ at this very moment. FDNY welcomes female firefighters and EMS workers. They have to pass the same exams as men, though, including a demanding physical performance test for firefighters. It is a great organization, with great benefits, and you get to perform the tremendous mitzvah of saving lives as your job.

    #1162309

    charliehall
    Participant

    “whether women should be allowed to vote in secular society”

    Whether women should be allowed to vote is not a machloket. All of Klal Yisrael rejected Rav Kook’s opinion in favor of that of Rav Uziel.

    #1162310

    Kasha
    Member

    charliehall: Yes, but this is already after the courts at the behest of the women’s lib/feminist movement has already watered down FDNY’s physical requirements, since “it was discriminatory against women.”

    Try explaining that to the 250 lb man stuck in a fire when the female firefighter — who made it due to the watered down requirements — comes to rescue him.

    Some other fire departments in the U.S. actually have lower standards for women than for men.

    #1162311

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Hashem gave specific and different characteristics for each gender for them to fulfill their respective roles.”

    This is true. There are about a dozen mitzvot that HaShem gave to male Yisraelim that he did not give to female Yisraelot. But for most of them, female Yisraelot are encouraged to do them (such as hearing the shofar) and the normative practice is that a female Yisrael will even say the blessing beforehand if she is Ashkenazic!

    #1162313

    anon for this
    Participant

    charliehall, some posters have expressed concern that female firefighters are not as well qualified as male firefighters. In your experience at FDNY, how do the qualifications of female firefighters compare to those of their male counterparts?

    kasha, which fire departments in the US have lower standards for female firefighters than for male ones?

    #1162314

    charliehall
    Participant

    “already watered down FDNY’s physical requirements”

    Not true. There is one exam that every candidate has to pass; it contains a selection of tasks that resemble things done in actual firefighting. You can have confidence in every FDNY uniformed firefighter.

    (That is true for FDNY; I can’t comment on other fire departments.)

    #1162315

    Kasha
    Member

    charliehall, The exam was previously watered down as a result of alleged so-called “discrimination”.

    anon for this, From what I’ve read in the news in the past. It is more common though for them to lower the requirements for everyone, to appease the feminists.

    Nevertheless, even today there are only 35 female firefighters in the FDNY, out of 11,600 — or about 0.0025 of the total.

    #1162316

    anon for this
    Participant

    kasha, please name specific cities/ districts that have lowered their requirements for firefighters, and when they lowered their requirements.

    #1162320

    Kasha
    Member

    NYC – FDNY, like I previously mentioned. They’ve lowered the’re standards (for everyone).

    They lowered it as a result of the feminist pressure over a decade ago. More recently (past 3 – 4 years) they’ve lowered it as a result of black pressure (the college requirements.)

    Many others throughout the nation have succumbed as well.

    If you want more information on this subject, do your own research as I have.

    #1162321

    anon for this
    Participant

    Kasha, which other cities have lowered their requirements? And exactly which requirements have they lowered?

    Since you are the one making the assertion that fire departments all over the country have lowered their requirements to appease feminists, you are the one who should cite your sources. Otherwise I’ll assume you are stating an opinion, similar to your claim that I’d make “a fine Egyptian slave-master”. (Actually my 7-year-old would agree with this, since I forced her to study for her spelling test before playing outside, a task which she felt suited neither her natural interests nor her abilities).

    #1162322

    Kasha
    Member

    You heard of google? Use it to find plenty of mainstream press news stories of fire departments lowering standards as a result of lawsuits by women and blacks.

    You can do your own research. There are enough stories like this to maintain your reading pleasure for the rest of the week.

    #1162323

    Just-a-guy
    Member

    Kasha wrote: “The thought that one is entitled to a “voice” is erroneous.”

    Kasha- I was responding to this statement, which you did not express as a statement of merely “your opinion.” This is a normative statement.

    Until galus ends, we Jews have to live within secular societies. If you think that larger society should be run by Torah principles, you may have that opinion. In my opinion, the larger secular society should operate under different principles so as to better enable Yidden to live a Torah-based life. “Feminism” as some people call it, supports the kollel lifestyle because it results in acceptable work environments and better wages for frum women. Allowing all women to vote, means that frum women can go vote, allowing frum Yidden in general to have more influence over their local affairs. I don’t think making the goyim live a Torah-based life will get us anywhere.

    #1162324

    Kasha
    Member

    Actually it would help them if they did follow more Torah principles. I certainly have the right to hope more Torah principles are implemented. Even the goyim believe in the Bible (albeit a corrupted version of it, it still has some Jewish standards.)

    If no women vote, then frum people don’t lose anything by frum women not voting.

    #1162325

    Just-a-guy
    Member

    Kasha- because Jews and frum Jews vote at greater rates than goyim, frum Jews do gain an advantage from women being permitted to vote.

    #1162326

    Kasha
    Member

    Just-a-guy: Even if Jews/Frum Jews vote at greater rates than goyim, frum Jews do NOT gain an advantage from women being permitted to vote. If you eliminate 50% of both Jews and non-Jews voting public, the remaining 50% of Jewish voters still maintain the’re same greater voting percentage against the remaining 50% of non-Jewish voters.

    #1162327

    mosherose
    Member

    The Torah agrees that women dont have the same intellect to be able to run a society like men. The torah temimah made the case over eight hundred years ago when he said that women do not have the intellectual stablity that men do. Just like you wouldnt want children voting because theyre not mature enough.

    #1162330

    mosherose
    Member

    “Speaking as someone who was in high demand as a babysitter when I was a teen, I take exception to that categorization. In fact, I feel the experience I had as a babysitter as a teen better prepared me for fatherhood.”

    Noone should ever leave their kids with a male babysitter. Women are much safer. i don’t know who left their kids with you but I wonder about theyre abilities as parents if they left their kids with a teenage boy.

    #1162331

    Just-a-guy
    Member

    “Noone should ever leave their kids with a male babysitter. Women are much safer. i don’t know who left their kids with you but I wonder about theyre abilities as parents if they left their kids with a teenage boy.”

    You are out of your mind.

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