Fires on Lag Baomer

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  • #612807
    A nony mouse
    Participant

    I’m just wondering why we dance around a fire on lag baomer…

    Fire is not a good sign…

    I’d like to hear what people have to say on this.

    #1016150
    DikDukDuck
    Participant

    Rebbe Alter tells us that aish is fire and fire is hot and we should keep away so that it does not jump on our bed and clothes so we don’t get burned.

    So don’t jump on the bed on Lag B’omer and you’ll be fine!

    #1016151
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    That was Gevald, Dik.

    #1016152
    oomis
    Participant

    Why do we light bonfires on Lag B’Omer? because of the fire of Torah, silly! Being that this is Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai’s yartzeit and he was the person whose entire being revolved around the Torah and the Zohar, we commemorate the day with a bonfire. At least, that’s how it was explained to me.

    #1016153
    sm29
    Participant

    The Rashbi’s teachings on the Zohar illuminated the world

    #1016154
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Fire is symbolic of intensity, not good or evil.

    #1016155
    TheGoq
    Participant

    Its a cheaper way to light everyone’s cigarettes?

    #1016156
    Sam2
    Participant

    It’s a serious Halachic issue that many Poskim in the 18th century were against but has somehow seemed to become standard practice.

    #1016157
    I. M. Shluffin
    Participant

    We made our own bonfire in our sandbox. It was beautiful, if I do say so myself. Even better than the one my brother made in our toaster once, or than the one I made in the microwave when I left some foil on the tradition soup.

    #1016158

    Sam:

    I seem to recall a different “Yom Tov”, where most poskim were against, but have now…

    And there were major poskim of earlier times that condoned it. And the ones in attendance (in this case) are not local butchers… they have Shas and Poskim at their fingertips. They pretty much know right from wrong..

    #1016159
    takahmamash
    Participant

    Being that this is Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai’s yartzeit and he was the person whose entire being revolved around the Torah and the Zohar, we commemorate the day with a bonfire.

    You’d think people would commemorate his yahrzeit with learning and revolving their lives around the Torah, rather than jumping around a meaningless fire, bittul z’man, and causing massive chillul Shabbat.

    #1016161
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    You’d think people would commemorate his yahrzeit with learning and revolving their lives around the Torah, rather than jumping around a meaningless fire, bittul z’man, and causing massive chillul Shabbat.

    Wow. Had a bad day, did you? I hope you feel better now that it’s morning.

    #1016162
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    And wouldn’t you think we would celebrate our freedom and initiation as Bnei Yisroel by learning instead of chewing Matza, Maror, and cups of wine? And Purim? Oy. Why don’t we just learn through the day? Why do we even have a Shabbos Seuda when could have had a ‘meaningful fast’ instead while learning profound thoughts and insights?

    Worse yet, lately I’ve noticed how Yeshiva Bochurim throw away a night Seder in order to dance at a friend’s wedding. That should be the most important time to learn for him. The Zechus of each word is worth more than a kick and a clap — put together, no?

    #1016163
    Sam2
    Participant

    LF: I said it’s become standard practice. We just don’t really understand why. If you’ll agree to that about some other holidays then Shalom Al Yisrael. 🙂

    #1016164
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Zoroastrianism?

    Seriously, it is a Chassidishe minhag. Something to do with Sefiros (not Sefirah), and I get lost at that point. I’m sure the Rebbes have Hailige Kavanos when going around.

    #1016165
    takahmamash
    Participant

    Wow. Had a bad day, did you? I hope you feel better now that it’s morning.

    No, actually my day has gone quite well, B”H.

    And wouldn’t you think we would celebrate our freedom and initiation as Bnei Yisroel by learning instead of chewing Matza, Maror, and cups of wine? And Purim? Oy. Why don’t we just learn through the day? Why do we even have a Shabbos Seuda when could have had a ‘meaningful fast’ instead while learning profound thoughts and insights?

    I guess you don’t realize that your examples are actual mitzvot, you know, things we are commanded to do. There is no mitzva in dancing around a fire; if there is, tell me the bracha that’s said.

    #1016166
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I did see the Police drop off the barricades for a bon fire on Shabbos for a bon fire that was after shabbos.

    #1016167
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The Rashbi’s teachings on the Zohar illuminated the world

    By that token, the Torah illuminated the world. Let’s make a bonfire on Shavuous.

    The Wolf

    #1016168
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    No, actually my day has gone quite well, B”H.

    So then why are you going bat-crazy on minhagei yisroel?

    There is no mitzva in dancing around a fire; if there is, tell me the bracha that’s said.

    First tell me the brocho that is made on burying people. Is that a mitzva?

    Then tell me the brocho that is made on returning a lost object.

    Then tell me the brocho that is made on abstaining from being mevazeh minhagei yisroel.

    #1016169
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Right, and some of those things were commanded by the Rabanan. Why didn’t they say to learn instead? And the Torah does tell us what Matzah and Maror is about, if my Haggadah is not lying to me. It is not a Chok, you know. Do you make a Bracha when you dance at a wedding?

    #1016170
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Wolfish, it is Rebbi Shimon who brought out the splendor which was previously hidden.

    #1016171
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    I personally do not have a minhag to light bonfires on Lag Baomer, but I find the derision of those who make bonfires rather disturbing. I think the question of whether to postpone the bonfires until Sunday afternoon to make things easier on the police and for people trying to attend is valid, but to lambaste the bonfires entirely as bittul zman and “meaningless” is an insult to large segments of Jewry.

    I also don’t fully understand the accusation that motzei Shabbos bonfires cause chillul Shabbos. Are the bonfire organizers really telling Jewish police officers, “please be there by 3pm on Saturday afternoon so we can get started promptly at 9?” If the police were interested in keeping Shabbos, why can’t they make most of the preparations like barricades before Shabbos, go home and observe Shabbos, make havdalah, jump into their uniforms and ride on over to man the ship? If cv”s preparations were done on Shabbos, then it’s the police who chose to be mechallel Shabbos.

    Going one step further, what’s to stop the police from starting their preparations on Shabbos even if the bonfires were held Sunday aftrernoon? Should all motzei Shabbos activities that might necessitate crowd control be postponed until Tuesday?

    #1016172
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    WolfishMusings,

    By that token, the Torah illuminated the world. Let’s make a bonfire on Shavuous.

    Why would bonfires on Lag Baomer have anything to do with Shavuos? Is there fundamentally something wrong with celebrating something differently on different days? On Friday night, we say “zecher litziyas Mitzrayim” as part of kiddush, so by that token, should we eat matzah and maror every Shabbos?

    #1016173
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I think he is just trying pinpoint what the idea really is. If someone were to seriously ask you your question of every Shabbos you know that you would be able to answer him.

    #1016174
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    We do. We have chrein and sometimes fake matzoh.

    #1016175
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The problem with bonfire on Motzei Shabbos is you have to prepare in advance. In the US you need time to get the police gates and fire trucks ready and have permits all set up. You also need to scour the area for flammable items (In case a piece of fire breaks off) you

    In Israel they have to have the Police, Army and Fire Department set up the area. Comb the area for terrorists, Make sure there arent any flammable items nearby etc

    Large crowds especially with fire just dont happen safely, you need to prepare. You need time to also get the fire extenguishers around etc.

    Yes, if it was Sunday afternoon they could still work on Shabbos, but at least there is time to prepare. If the Bonfire is 1 hour after shabbos you just dont have the time to prepare safely

    #1016176
    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: If that’s really the idea then why weren’t there bonfires between R’ Shimon and the 17th century? (And if you want to say because the Zohar wasn’t revealed until the 1200s, then you still have several hundred years of no celebrating to figure out).

    Avram: For example, firefighters and EMT workers in Israel had to be organized and ready to go at a moment’s notice, which meant preparing a few hours before Shabbos ended. That couldn’t have been done on Friday.

    #1016177
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Sam2,

    For example, firefighters and EMT workers in Israel had to be organized and ready to go at a moment’s notice, which meant preparing a few hours before Shabbos ended. That couldn’t have been done on Friday.

    That makes sense, thank you.

    #1016178
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    HaLeiVi,

    I think he is just trying pinpoint what the idea really is.

    Ok, but it doesn’t make sense to me why bonfires on Lag Baomer cannot be about celebrating the light of Torah just because we don’t light bonfires on Shavuos.

    #1016179
    charliehall
    Participant

    “You’d think people would commemorate his yahrzeit with learning and revolving their lives around the Torah”

    I did just that! I learned sugyot from two different tractates of Bavli, two different tractates of Yerushalmi, and also a perek of Navi.

    #1016180
    charliehall
    Participant

    ” firefighters and EMT workers in Israel had to be organized and ready to go at a moment’s notice, which meant preparing a few hours before Shabbos ended.”

    Next time that Lag B’Omer falls out motzi Shabat, I hope that we will eliminate the chilul Shabat by pushing off the bonfires to Sunday afternoon, as was suggested by numerous rabbis who were sadly ignored. They could still be lit the afternoon of Lag B’Omer and continue to burn all night. Rabbi Shimon would be very pleased! After all, the sugya describing his time in the cave and after starts on Amud Bet of Shabat Daf 33, and continues to Amud Aleph of Daf 34! I think there might be a lesson there. 😉

    #1016181
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Sam, it was only celebrated in Eretz Yisroel. I didn’t actually give that reason, I just clarified it. The fire was never such an Ikkar. It was done to enhance the Simcha. But when a Minhag spreads all around we apply the concept of Bnei Neviim and try to find depth.

    It seems though, that there was such a thing in earlier times. I think the Maharil’s Talmid describes how they spent Lag Ba’omer with a parade and jumping through fire loops.

    #1016182
    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: I’m not aware of that. I thought the earliest source was in the 1700s. I don’t think even the Talmidei Ari had a celebration. It’s just weird. The Chassam Sofer was very against the celebrations becoming popular. We apply B’nei Nevi’im when we don’t know what’s going on. If we can pinpoint how the Minhag improperly started (which, as far as I know, we can’t do here) then we would try to be Mevatel it.

    #1016183
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Rav Mibartenura records in his letter how they celebrated Lag Baomer in Meron. He was around 1500.

    The Chasam Sofer having heard of people tossing clothing into the fire condemed it as Bal Tash’chis. Those Poskim who lived in Eretz Yisroel and who witnessed the Simcha had a very different look at it, and responded to that Teshuva.

    The Arizal took part in the celebrations, as told by Reb Chaim Vittal. He even revealed to a Talmid that this Talmid will be punished for ruining the Simcha by saying Nachem.

    The day was always considered special. What is new is the association with Rebbi Shimon and the degree to which it is celebrated. The Maharal in Nesiv Hatorah writes about the significance of the 18th of Iyar.

    #1016184
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolfish, it is Rebbi Shimon who brought out the splendor which was previously hidden.

    And when the Torah was revealed by Moshe Rabbeinu, the previously hidden splendor wasn’t at least as great?

    The Wolf

    #1016185
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Why would bonfires on Lag Baomer have anything to do with Shavuos? Is there fundamentally something wrong with celebrating something differently on different days? On Friday night, we say “zecher litziyas Mitzrayim” as part of kiddush, so by that token, should we eat matzah and maror every Shabbos?

    Your analogy is not valid.

    We were commanded by God to eat matzah and marror on Pesach, while we were not commanded to do so on Shabbos.

    OTOH, building bonfires is not a command from God, but something that we, ourselves originated. As such, if we can do so for Lag B’Omer, I don’t see a reason why we can’t do so for Shavuous as well.

    The Wolf

    #1016186
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    And when the Torah was revealed by Moshe Rabbeinu, the previously hidden splendor wasn’t at least as great?

    Your analogy is not valid.

    We were commanded by God to eat matzah and marror on Pesach, while we were not commanded to do so on Shabbos.

    OTOH, building bonfires is not a command from God, but something that we, ourselves originated. As such, if we can do so for Lag B’Omer, I don’t see a reason why we can’t do so for Shavuous as well.

    1: No. Many “Frum Jews” do not listen to the 5 books of Moshe, and Nach certainly not, but no “Frum Jew” would even think of transgressing the Kabbalah (Zohar) or the Tzava of R’ Yehudah HaChassid.

    2: They believe that God did command them (via the Rebbes) to build bonfires.

    #1016187
    dafbiyun
    Participant

    Just thinking out loud: perhaps the minhag is related to gemorah which describes how right after RSBY left the cave where he had been hiding and learning with his sont he was on such a high madreiga that any gashmios that he looked at was burned.

    #1016188
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    WolfishMusings,

    Your analogy is not valid.

    We were commanded by God to eat matzah and marror on Pesach, while we were not commanded to do so on Shabbos.

    Fine; I should have picked an analogy dealing with minhagim.

    OTOH, building bonfires is not a command from God, but something that we, ourselves originated.

    So should those who make bonfires do away with the practice? Should Ashkenazim stop eating latkes on Chanukah? Sefardim stop eating donuts? Should Chabad do away with Yud Tes Kislev? Fabrengens? Should we also do away with dates and pomegranates on Rosh Hashanah, wearing kittels on Seder night and Yom Kippur, making a siyum, drashos before mussaf on Shabbos, etc. because we cannot find them in Chummash?

    As such, if we can do so for Lag B’Omer, I don’t see a reason why we can’t do so for Shavuous as well.

    If you find a halachically acceptable way of safely making a bonfire on Shavuos, then feel free to do that, and eat cheesecake on Lag Baomer while you’re at it:)

    #1016189
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Light a fire at home before Shavuous. If you have a fireplace.

    #1016190
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    So should those who make bonfires do away with the practice? Should Ashkenazim stop eating latkes on Chanukah? Sefardim stop eating donuts? Should Chabad do away with Yud Tes Kislev? Fabrengens? Should we also do away with dates and pomegranates on Rosh Hashanah, wearing kittels on Seder night and Yom Kippur, making a siyum, drashos before mussaf on Shabbos, etc. because we cannot find them in Chummash?

    Where on earth did you get the idea that my goal is to stop any (let alone all) minhagim?

    My point was that if the sole reason to light a bonfire on L”B is becuase of the light that was revealed, then surely Shavuous is a better candidate.

    The Wolf

    #1016191
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Just thinking out loud: perhaps the minhag is related to gemorah which describes how right after RSBY left the cave where he had been hiding and learning with his sont he was on such a high madreiga that any gashmios that he looked at was burned.

    In other words, we light a bonfire to celebrate people who died working and supporting their families??

    The Wolf

    #1016192
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “In other words, we light a bonfire to celebrate people who died working and supporting their families??”

    Are you really that simple? Is that really how you read that?

    I am sure if you tried, you can find a more rational relationship, not something that requires some ridiculous stretch of the imagination.

    #1016193
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    WolfishMusings,

    Where on earth did you get the idea that my goal is to stop any (let alone all) minhagim?

    I apologize for misinterpreting your intentions. I didn’t think that you wanted necessarily to stop this (or any) minhag, but it did seem to me that you were subtly calling its legitimacy into question.

    My point was that if the sole reason to light a bonfire on L”B is becuase of the light that was revealed, then surely Shavuous is a better candidate.

    I guess what I don’t understand about your point is: why can’t the bonfires be about the revealed light of Torah despite the fact that we don’t light bonfires on Shavuos? What is the issue with celebrating something in a different manner on a different day?

    #1016194
    dafbiyun
    Participant

    silly response. Those are your words. I was suggesting that we celebrate the fact that a person could reach such a high madraiga. Why don’t you complain to RSBY for killing poor innocents? ? Maybe he was chaiyiv misa for what he did? And, how do you know these were people working to support their families? perhaps they just wanted some extra cash ? We obviously do not know the exact meaning of this maasa ( although, of course he was told to stop or there would be no world left). But in my humble opinion it is brought down as a shvach of RSBY.

    #1016195
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    silly response. Those are your words.

    I didn’t really think that was your intention. But it could have been read into your words.

    I was suggesting that we celebrate the fact that a person could reach such a high madraiga. Why don’t you complain to RSBY for killing poor innocents? ? Maybe he was chaiyiv misa for what he did? And, how do you know these were people working to support their families? perhaps they just wanted some extra cash ? We obviously do not know the exact meaning of this maasa ( although, of course he was told to stop or there would be no world left). But in my humble opinion it is brought down as a shvach of RSBY.

    I humbly disagree. I think the story is both to the merit and detriment of RSBY.

    To the merit, he got to spend those years learning with no interruptions. He was miraculously saved and supported for those years. All of those speak to the exceptional merit of RSBY.

    However, it’s also true that during those years, he lost sense of the common man. The fact that he saw those who were hard at work supporting their families and putting bread on the table as deserving of death clearly shows that he lost sight of the plight of the common person who could not simply learn full-time and ignore their need for parnassah. He had to be ordered to return to the cave for another year until he was able to again comprehend the common man.

    The Wolf

    #1016196
    dafbiyun
    Participant

    The Ohr Chodosh (to parshas V’yaira) says that RSBY had reached the madraiga of a ” malach saraf” and that he was “no longer compatable with this world and the world was not compatible with him”.

    (The aruch hashulchan has a similar p’shat in why the malach replied to Manoach that his name was Peli. The ability of a malach , which is pure ruchnius ,to interact with humans on this world is a ” daver peleh” Similarly we say in asher yatzar ” u’mafli laasos”; this relates to the great nes required to keep the nefesh and guf working together)

    In any event , I don’t think its fair to say RSBY “forgot” about the common man ; he transcended mankind.

    I also saw in Minhag yisroel torah that the minhag is specifically burn clothing. ( thus the complaints about bal tashchis). He brings down that the basis for the minhag is that RSBY became like adam harishon kodem hachait. Just as Adam and Chava had no need for clothing, so it was with RSBY.

    #1016197
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    In any event , I don’t think its fair to say RSBY “forgot” about the common man ; he transcended mankind.

    Fair enough — we can quibble about the exact verb to use — but the bottom line is still that RSBY could no longer function in the “real world” with the “common man.”

    The Wolf

    #1016198
    dafbiyun
    Participant

    Agreed. Time to move on to Shavuos!

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