# For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA

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• #1045730

MachaaMaker
Member

Wow this is geshmak

#1045731

the plumber
Member

All of you are very smart, obviously you are smart because you can bring out random maareh mekomos (sarcasm intended). But there is prob a good reason you’re on yeshiva world and not in the shiur room.

This discussion is done in my books.

If you have no kavod for gedolum and you’re not machshiv what you’re sons rebbeim are teaching them, please keep it to yourself. It doesn’t matter how many seforim you can quote, you are crum.

#1045732

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

Thank you PulsingFlower for the compliment.

#1045733

MachaaMaker
Member

Also on “daas Torah” it’s not as Pashut as you make it out to be, just because a person is knowledgable in Torah why should u make your financial and menial life desicions based on them. While they obviously know Torah well that doesn’t mean they Know so much about other things, and it’s not Kefirah or apikorsus to believe that

#1045734

This thread should end, being that if yeshiva guys were to read this they can be turned off by a bunch of stupid posters who think they know everything.

I’m sorry, but I don’t choose to suppress my opinion because others might agree to it.

#1045735

All of you are very smart, obviously you are smart because you can bring out random maareh mekomos (sarcasm intended).

Don’t worry, none taken.

But there is prob a good reason you’re on yeshiva world and not in the shiur room.

Yes there is.

This discussion is done in my books.

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say

If you have no kavod for gedolum and you’re not machshiv what you’re sons rebbeim are teaching them, please keep it to yourself

NO!

(Besides for the fact that I disagree with both of your statements)

I’m also shocked to find out I have sons. What are their names?

It doesn’t matter how many seforim you can quote, you are crum.

Nice retort.

#1045736

☕ DaasYochid ☕
Participant

The reason that we highly value their words is because they are closer to the authentic mesora. Not because they are naturally smarter or better writers.

This is not true. We consider previous generations smarter. See Ramba”m in his hakdama to Pirush Hamishnayos. It is generally assumed to apply to all subsequent generations, and the general approach of each generation’s talmidei chachomim to those of previous generations bears this out.

#1045737

I don’t remember that being in the hakdama. Can you post what page it’s on in hebrewbooks?

Thanks.

#1045738

MachaaMaker
Member

Plumber Why does this mean that he has no kovod for Gedolim?

#1045739

Logician
Participant

1)Rishonim tend to ask logical questions and questions based on other texts, NOT questions about why the gemara/other rishonim used word X.

So apparently you don’t learn rishonim.

Endless discussions in Gemara and rishonim center around questions of phraseology.

2) I have a very hard time believing the underlying assumption that the Rishonim are malachim* and every word they wrote contains a chidush. As far as I know, no rishonim thought that there predecessors wrote like this, and nor do rishonim think that the gemara writes like this.

The Ohr Zarua writes how every word of Rashi has meaning, and if one reads carefully they can see that many questions can be resolved by a single word of Rashi. Because, he explains- he wrote with Ruach hakodesh! (or something to the effect of ‘divinely inspired’ – don’t remember exact lashon).

And it goes without saying that regardless how we should learn the seforim, they certainly made a very big deal of diyukim.

#1045740

Logician
Participant

3) What do all the quotes about improper application of iyun skills have to do with this discussion?

4)Bekius ensures that you know at least everything decently well.

It certainly does not. It may be something you should do, and it may give you certin tools going forward, but a cursory reading of many complicated sugyos would not qualify for ‘decently well’.

5) Contrary to popular belief, bekius does not only have to consist of gemara and rashi. I also learn tosfos bekius as well as many other mefarshim and sefarim.

I don’t only read through popular novels in a few days. I also skim thru textbooks on rocket science in my spare time (with not much of a background in science). I find it very illuminating.

Yes, you can read thru a tosafos or other complicated seforim quickly, and glean the basic idea of whats being discussed. That’s not learning tosafos. For that you read kitzur piskei tosafos.

6)The problem with iyun is that it is much harder to retain the knowledge one acquires due to the difficulty of remembering every diyuk.

But that is hardly the point. Being medayek properly will lead to the proper understanding of the sugya – which you retain much better than randomly memorizing gemoros.

#1045741

☕ DaasYochid ☕
Participant

PF, I’ll try later tonight, bl”n.

#1045742

Endless discussions in Gemara and rishonim center around questions of phraseology.

The type of phraseology questions that I am talking about are those of why he used word X and not word Y. Those types of discusions are rarely in the gemara/rishonim. I can think of a few examples but they are not common at all.

Because, he explains- he wrote with Ruach hakodesh! (or something to the effect of ‘divinely inspired’ – don’t remember exact lashon).

I also write with ruach hakodesh.

What do all the quotes about improper application of iyun skills have to do with this discussion?

Welcome to the CR.

but a cursory reading of many complicated sugyos would not qualify for ‘decently well’.

I didn’t say to skim it. You need to have basic havana of the shakla v’tarya.

That’s not learning tosafos.

True. It is studying tosfos. To learn tosfos makes no sense grammatically.

which you retain much better than randomly memorizing gemoros.

False. It’s not ‘random memorization’, and people do retain it better.

#1045743

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

???? ???. ???? ?? ????

????? ?????? ??????? ????? ??

????: ????? ????. ????? ???????

????? ????? ?????? ??????

????? ???????? ?? ???? ?? ???

???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?? ???

???? ???? ???? ???? ???

?????? ??????? ????? ?????

??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????

(????? ?? ?:) ???? ?? ?????

??? ???????? ??? ???? ???

(Rashi Avodah Zarah 19a)

#1045744

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

For instance Rabbeinu Yonah (Avos 4:5) writes ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???? but he doesn’t say that you should spend your time on this before you have any breadth of knowledge.

#1045745

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? (??? ?? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???????? ???? ???) ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???????

(Gra as quoted in Even Shelaima 8:2)

#1045746

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

And as R’ Shmuel Maltzan adds in the he’aros there:

??”? ???? ??”? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ???”? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ????

#1045747

1.How in the world do you know all of these sources?? You know them offhand or you did some bar-ilan search? I am impressed.

2.Also, did you type all of these sources by hand?

#1045748

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????, ?????

?????? ?? ????.

???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???????

???? ??? ?? ?????

(R’ Moshe Chevroni, Rosh Yeshiva of Chevron, lamenting today’s style of learning)

#1045749

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

??? ???? ?????

??? ??????? ????? ?”? ????? ???? ??????, ?????? ???

????? ???? ????? ???? ??”? ????’ ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??

????? ????’ ??? ????? ???”? ????”? ????????? ??? ??????

????? ?? ?”?. ??”? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??

????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ????

(R’ Elazar Menachem Man Shach)

#1045750

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

??? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??????, ??? ???

????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ???????? ?? ???? ???? ?????

????? ??? ??????? ????? ????, ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????

????? ??? ????? ???? ?????.

(R’ Elazar Menachem Man Shach)

#1045751

Can you please answer my question? I am dying to know. I give you permission to be a baal gaava. I also give you permission to admit that you are normal.

I am so impressed.

#1045752

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

Pulsing Flower:

So far everything I quoted was from previous knowledge (although I had to refind them to quote them exactly). Some I typed out while some I copied from hebrewbooks. (The statements of R’ Chevroni and R’ Shach are brought down in Hadran Alach but I had seen them a year or two ago.)

#1045753

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

“I give you permission to be a baal gaava”

?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???

which would make you an inciter to avoda zara (sort of)

#1045754

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

“I remember a pamphlet coming out a while back from R Binyamin Fuerst with haskomos from basically all of the gedolim of the time advocating a change in the system to include more bekius”

I think his name is actually R’ Shimon Fuerst. It’s called Tenu Kavod Latorah and he says that every bachur has to learn at least 100 blatt per half year.

#1045755

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

R’ Aharon Yehuda Leib Shteinman:

“Over the past number of years, a trend has developed in yeshivos to learn just a few dafim of gemara over an entire year. This is due to the great amount of time spent on unnecessary probing, and it leads to a lack of Torah knowledge. The senior roshei yeshiva have already expressed their disappointment with this system, yet, unfortunately, the situation has not improved Today, even the mesivtos only cover a very limited number of dafim each year. Young talmidim should try their utmost to use the years of their youth, the prime years to grow in Torah learning, to acquire vast amounts of knowledge. They should learn much Gemara, Rashi, and Tosafos, together with no more than a limited number of Rishonim and the key Acharonim [all the while making sure they understand the material well]. May Hashem guide us in the proper path to make the Torah great and glorify it.”

#1045756

1)The gemara in sotah(daf 6a or so) says you are supposed to have an eighth of an eighth of gaava. The rambam also paskens this way. This is clearly less. Ayen point 4.

2)The gemara and poskim say that you are allowed to be honest about how much you learned, even though you are allowed to say you learned less than you did.

3)By your ‘gaava’, you are inspiring others to reach greater levels of learning which is clearly a positive thing.

4)I don’t think it counts as gaava at all, being that I have no idea who you are, and I’m not sure how much ‘gaava’ you would be able to have in such a case in terms of the metzius of human psychology.

5)You are probably thinking “boy: would this guy be surprised if he knew I actually was”

#1045757

I don’t chap why patur and pulsing feel the need to disparage an entire system of learning and all the big talmidei chachomim who are a part of it. Why do you have to be whiny? Patur- you are clearly a talmid chochom, so go teach shiurim and chaburos instead of posting here and criticizing other peoples’ talmud torah. Or at least, post divrei torah here, not random seforim backing up your complaints against Klal Yisroel.

#1045758

Logician
Participant

Not quite sure what diyukim you’re talking about.

Trying to understand why each rishon/acharon had to use every step that he did and say each word that he did. This is the type of iyun that I believe is WAY overdone. This style of learning is very recent, only about 200 years old, and I don’t really believe it is emes. I have a very hard time believing the underlying assumption that the Rishonim are malachim* and every word they wrote contains a chidush.

1)Is analyzing the process by which someone reached their conclusion equal to believing that their every word contains a chiddush?

2)Sorry, but you don’t really know what you’re talking about. The methods of analyzing and understanding may have innovations, and so you won’t find the modern terminology in older seforim. But they are very often doing the same thing, using different language. On just about every page of Rishonim, besides logical questions and discussions, you will find discussion on why the Gemara needed certain steps to reach where they did, and interpretations based on nuances. And so in sifrei achronim about the rishonim. Either I’m just not understanding your references, or you just don’t know how to learn.

3)As there is so much iyun and understanding to be done evenwithout whatever diyukim you’re talking about, I don’t find your point relevant to your general issue with bekius and iyun. You think more bekius should be learned – that’s one thing. I happen to agree. But it’s another issue altogether.

Maybe we live in different universes. Just as an example that I know about – have you analyzed the marks that extremely smart, dedicated talmidei chachamim get on tests, such as Dirshu ? Sorry, but your average (and even above-average) person has a problem with long-term retention of large quantities of information. And when you spend time delving into and understanding something, you certainly retain the ideas much better.

Knowing the shakla v’tarya of a Gemara is barely even skimming a sugya. It is superficial to the extreme – as far as knowing the sugya is concerned. It is certainly worthwhile and necessary to have knowledge of many Gemaras and their shakla v’tarya. But as far as understanding goes – what you have after the rishonim and (even early) achronim are done with the sugya is often radically far from what you have after learning the daf on its own. So no, that’s not what I’d call ‘decently well’ for the point we’re discussing.

Finding fault with someone in a debate in an irrelevant point (such as grammar) is not exactly the sign of a strong position.

And is there any reason you are mocking the Ohr Zarua ? Perhaps because I’m actually showing you a Rishon who explicitly says that which you’d rather not believe ?

#1045759

Logician
Participant

The Maharal’s positions on learning, specifically about Tosafos, definitely deserve the proper respect and consideration. But they have mostly been ignored (i.e. disagreed with) by our gedloim and educators. And so to say that you personally agree with his point is fine, as with any position a person relates to. But to bring it up in a practical discussion and criticize others based on it is just silly.

#1045760

☕ DaasYochid ☕
Participant
#1045761

jbaldy22
Member

Patur Aval Assur

yes you are right it was R’ Shimon Fuerst. Its been a while.

#1045762

Logician
Participant

For many years I’ve been making a point, and was recently gratified to find it in published letter by R’ Shimshon Pinkus.

He says that it is rare for a bachur to succeed by trying to work out of the yeshiva system.

And he says there’s really no reason to! Put aside the system of learning, its reasons and justifications. Any serious bachur can find enough time in his day for any seder he’d like – bekius, nach, halacha – without taking away from the yeshiva schedule. How long does it take to learn (and even chazer) daf yomi?!

So no one can blame their lack of knowledge on the system.

Certain Yeshivos encourage this, and very few discourage it.

#1045763

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

Also see the Medrash Mishlei (quoted by the Biur Halacha in siman 155) as to how G-d will take you to task for every part of Torah that you did not learn. However perhaps one can be rescued by Berachos 5b

??? ???? ??

???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???

????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ???

?????

#1045764

jbaldy22
Member

Logician

So basically you are saying that you agree bekius is important and as you are aware it is to the point that many achronim suggest it takes primacy over iyun (at least in the order of what one should learn) and then you suggest that because it is just “not discouraged” in yeshivos that is enough?

Bemichilas Kvodcha that makes no sense (I do agree with most of the rest of what you said though). Additionally bekius sedarim in many yeshivos is a weak seder if it exists at all – I think that makes a statement in it of itself.

As an aside there is a vast difference in the way iyun is practiced today simply because of the availability of seforim which in europe was non existent.

#1045765

jbaldy22
Member

Patur Aval Assur

That Biur Halacha (assuming we are talking about the same one) is extremely strong in particular about bitul torah. I guess that its a concept everyone is aware of but it is still gives me chills.

#1045766

☕ DaasYochid ☕
Participant

Additionally bekius sedarim in many yeshivos is a weak seder if it exists at all – I think that makes a statement in it of itself.

Ah, but what’s the cause, and what’s the effect?

It was always well known that the yeshivos were not following R’ Schach’s wishes. The only possible normal explanation would be that the roshei yeshivah saw that it would cause the bochurim to lose interest, so sacrificed the ideal way to learn, for the purpose of getting the bochurim to be interested in learning.

Anyone who thinks that R’ Schach was against iyun, though, never learned (or comprehended) his seforim. He wrote the most lomdish’e seforim in the dor. The issue is one of approach; he maintained that one must attain bekius in order to attain iyun, but he was never satisfied with just bekius.

#1045767

poppas abba
Member

i think something very relevant which has not been mentioned, and especially missing from pfs arguments are the following. PF ridiculously suggests that being that Joe Hershkowitz and Steve Cohen are different in their talent levels, we can assume that Rashi and Rabbeinu Tam were as well, and from that natural difference stemmed all their further differences, whether in writing style, brevity, or actual psak.

Let me ask you this: would you say the same thing about Ravina and Rav Ashi? Beis Hillel and Beis Shammai? I hope not.

Why indeed not? Because we believe that just as tora shebiksav is m’sinai, so too tora shebaal pen is misinai, meaning yes, both shitas bees shammai and bees hillel are misinai. Therefore, there is no contradiction to the fact that bzman hazeh we follow b”h, and l’osid lavo we will follow b”s. Shivim panim ltorah, each are different expressions of the tora and of ratzon hashem, bzman hazeh we are in a world most befitting the interpretation of b”h leosid lavo, the world will be on a level compatible with the explanation of b”s. Both are absolute and correct.

What about the rishonim. The chida (and Ibelieve R”C volozhiner as well) are both quoted as saying that there is no way the Rambam intended all the things that were explained by the mefarshim in Yad. But they are nevertheless valid. Why? Because the words of the rishonim were (wait for it) written by ruach hakodesh. Hashem himself orchestrated these words to be written and studied for generations. The Rambam was so oseik in torah up to the point that the rambam himself became wholly connected to the torah, and the words that he wrote were the words of torah themselves.

This is not to say that anyone who lived in the 1200s is automatically of status. But I’m pretty sure rashi, rabbeinu tam, ramban , and the rishonim who comprise what has klal yisrael has studied for generations are included. We do not study Ramban’s interpretation of the Torah, we study the torah OF the ram ban.

I am afraid your viewpoint, pulsating flower, comes from your John q jew comparison. The rishonim (and for that matter all gedolim) were not john q, just better. They were representatives and mouthpieces of Hashem himself.

#1045768

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

“I don’t chap why patur and pulsing feel the need to disparage an entire system of learning and all the big talmidei chachomim who are a part of it. Why do you have to be whiny? Patur- you are clearly a talmid chochom, so go teach shiurim and chaburos instead of posting here and criticizing other peoples’ talmud torah. Or at least, post divrei torah here, not random seforim backing up your complaints against Klal Yisroel.”

As far as I know I did not disparage anyone or any method. However, a different poster disparaged a method of learning and those who learn it, using such words as “stupid” “krum” and “against the mesorah”. I am merely bringing sources to justify this method and its adherents. If someone who learns a different method feels disparaged simply by seeing the sources then I can’t help that.

#1045769

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

“The gemara in sotah(daf 6a or so) says you are supposed to have an eighth of an eighth of gaava. The rambam also paskens this way. This is clearly less.”

The Rambam also says that gaavah is the one midah where you have to go ?? ??? ??????

#1045770

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

More sources:

??? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? – ?????? ?????, ???? ?????

(Shabbos 63a)

?????? ?????. ????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?????

???? ?????. ?????. ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????

???????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???

(Rashi there)

#1045771

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

??? ?????? ???? ???? ???”? ???? ???? (?? ????? ?? ????) ???”? ?????

(Hakdama to the Maadnei Yom Tov/Pilpula Charifta

#1045772

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

R’ Yisrael Salanter (see Ohr Yisrael Iggeres 27) talks about the importance of both broad bekius and knowing how to be ????? ????? but again he doesn’t say that you should engage in such dialectics without a broad knowledge base. In fact although he does not directly discuss which one takes precedence, he does list bekius first which in turn is based on the fact that the Gemara in kiddushin lists ???? ?? ??? ???? (bekius) before ???? ?????? (pilpul/charifus).

#1045773

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ???????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ???????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ???????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ??????

#1045774

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

Also from the Chayei Adam (Hakdama Acharona)

???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???????? ??? ?? ?? ?? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????

By the way, readers should look up my sources because I cannot type out the whole context. It takes long enough just to type out the actual quote.

#1045775

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

Maharsha Bava Metzia 85a

???”? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ??????

Obviously there is a place for pilpul as the Maharsha himself writes (Shabbos 31a)

????? ?????. ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????

#1045776

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

Is it just me or do quotes from seforim take an awfully long time to be moderated?

It’s just you. 😉

#1045777

So to sum it up, the case for the importance of bekiyus has the backing of:

Multiple gemorrahs, rashi, the maharal, orchos tzafikkim, the gra, the aruch hashulchan,

Shulchan aruch harav(although in tanya he is mashma differently, but there it is talking about the

End goal), the chayei odom, the pele yoetz, the chafetz chaim, rav shach,

Rav shteinman, the steipler gaon, rav yaakov kamenetzky, the temani derech halimmud, the gerrer rebbe

and many many more. Doesn’t make pulsing look so crum, lacking mesorah, and lacking a rov to

guide him now does it?

I personally spoke to an adom gadol today, a world expert in more than one area in halacha, and questioned him about this matter. He said that it is important to learn how to think, which the yeshivishe derech gives.

However, once one leaves yeshiva or learns on his own without a shiur, how can he spend 6 hours on a rashba? Whats more important, learning one gemorra with 5 rishonim or 5 gemorrahs with one rishon?

#1045778

People must realize the importance of bekiyus!

As the gaon said ” im ein kemach ein torah” if there is no bekiyus there can be no iyun. However it works both ways. But if your way of iyun, is one that in 5 years you will finish a single mesechta with hundreds of rishonim, acharonim, chakiras and diyukim, look at the biyur halocha quoted above, and think of the day of death.

#1045779

Patur Aval Assur
Participant

Pele Yoetz (Section entitled Girsa)

????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????,??? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??????, ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? (????? ???? ???? ?????) ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????

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