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iacisrmma -“Health: please provide the sources for those you listed who “ASSURED” smoking. I prefer to look them up with my Rav.”
I just did. Read it again!
Do you still maintain that according to the teshuva you cited R’ Moshe holds smoking is an absolute issue? Would he apply shomer pesayim HASHEM to someone who couldn’t stop eating maachalos assurros for example?
Again. I’m not taking the position he is ok with it. I’m not disagreeing with the position of his many talmidim and his own sons who are gedolim in their right and What they say he would rule today. Full disclosure. I don’t smoke. Don’t intend to start. More than discourage my own kids from starting. I can’t stand being around smokers.
I just don’t like when people make absolute statements in the name of poskim without providing a source for it. The coffee room is full of absurd claims made by all sorts of people in the name poskim. It is not crazy to ask for a source. In fact the source you cite indicates it is not an absolute issur although it is clear he does not like the practice.
Smoking is very dangerous. Look, even just talking about smoking has made half the CR posters into lunatics. The posts on this thread are more judgmental than just about any on the CR.
APY -“Do you still maintain that according to the teshuva you cited R’ Moshe holds smoking is an absolute issue?”
I don’t, but R. Moshe’s son thinks it is!
“Rav Reuven Feinstein and others have said hold that Rav Moshe’s psak is clearly not applicable.”
“I’m not disagreeing with the position of his many talmidim and his own sons who are gedolim in their right and What they say he would rule today.”
Actually you are!
“I just don’t like when people make absolute statements in the name of poskim without providing a source for it.”
Obviously that poster, either asked R. Revain himself or he knows it for a fact another way.
PBA -“Smoking is very dangerous. Look, even just talking about smoking has made half the CR posters into lunatics.”
Wrong. Me and you have been nuts for many years, nothing to do with the CR!
So bottom line, is smoking assur?
Health: Thank you….but as you know postings to the CR are moderated and cannot be seen until approved. I made my request BEFORE your post with the sources was approved.
Sparkly: I do not smoke. However, I have family members who do and while I do not believe they will stop I appreciate that “Health” has provided the sources for the gedolim named above so I can at least review it with them.
“Obviously”?
Are you a navi? do you have ruach hakodesh? I am not, and do not. Therefore, when people make claims I ask for proof.
“Actually you are!”
No, Im not. Rav Moshe never ruled anywhere that smoking is an absolute Issur despite claims to the contrary. That his Sons and Talmidim say that he would nowadays is not the same thing and stating that Rav Moshe ruled it is an absolute issur. THEY are ruling it is an absolute issur and state that he would agree with them.
APY -“Are you a navi? do you have ruach hakodesh? I am not, and do not. Therefore, when people make claims I ask for proof.”
Since I didn’t ask these people themselves, nor am I going to, you’ll have to decide whether that poster made up all those quotes or they’re actual?
When you read a Sefer, do you ask whether the printer wrote it or the Rov?!?
“No, Im not. Rav Moshe never ruled anywhere that smoking is an absolute Issur despite claims to the contrary. That his Sons and Talmidim say that he would nowadays is not the same thing and stating that Rav Moshe ruled it is an absolute issur. THEY are ruling it is an absolute issur and state that he would agree with them.”
So you’re saying that you know better than them? You know the thought processes of R’ Moshe better than his son?
Are you for real?!?
Sparkly
I’m just curious. Don’t you think Hashem would rather a person destroy their body rather than their neshama? Isn’t the point of yiddiskeit to return your neshama as close to pure as when you got it? Isn’t that the point of chanukah that the chashmonyim would rather die then sully themselves with the greek culture?
That said, I truly don’t understand your position. You believe TV, movies etc are permitted under our religion? That they don’t cause spiritual harm.
Health
Don’t you think the list of gedolim who ban TV etc vastly outweighs the list you put up?
and Neville
I love the name
just sayin
Mentch1 -“Health -Don’t you think the list of gedolim who ban TV etc vastly outweighs the list you put up?”
What are you talking about? I never said e/o should go watch TV!
If TV is Osser or Mutter, it has nothing to do with Smoking!
I’m simply pointing out the ridiculousness of your assertion. You like Sparkly want to pasul (call OTD) those that smoke. My guess is you watch TV, like Sparkly. The gedolim call that assur. Does that make you and Sparkly OTD?
No where in rabbinic literature have I seen a definition of OTD that revolves around smoking. But I have seen a definition revolving around TV. In regards to the issur of yichud a parutz does not count in terms of negating the issur yichud. There are those that hold that watching TV qualifies you as a parutz.
I was just in Israel. Spent time learning at the Mir. It seemed like half the yeshiva smokes. Disgusting, a little. But I’m betting they have much more yiras shemayim then those on this site casting aspersions on their frumkeit.
Look, spiritual safety is defenetly more important, but to do our tafkid we NEED to be healthy. One isn’t better than the other. We need a good dose of each.
“So you’re saying that you know better than them?”
Your assumption.
“You know the thought processes of R’ Moshe better than his son?”
Again, thats your assumption. Rav Moshe did not say what you claim he did. His sons said that he WOULD HAVE said it since they know his thought process. You on the other hand put forth a long list of poskim who you claimed stated smoking was an absolute issur. Rav Moshe never said such a thing. All i’m saying.
“Are you for real?!?”
More real that your false attribution to Rav Moshe Z’l.
Mentch1 – Are you sure?
“My guess is you watch TV, like Sparkly. The gedolim call that assur. Does that make you and Sparkly OTD?”
Did you learn in the Mir to be Choshet B’csharim?
Is that what all your years in the Yeshiva taught you – if you want to defend yourself because you’re a smoker, attack the other guy with ever you feel like?!?
“No where in rabbinic literature have I seen a definition of OTD that revolves around smoking.”
Btw, it wasn’t me who called anyone OTD! Put down the cig, because the smoke is affecting your eyesight.
“But I have seen a definition revolving around TV. In regards to the issur of yichud a parutz does not count in terms of negating the issur yichud. There are those that hold that watching TV qualifies you as a parutz.”
So first you said I watch TV, now you’re saying I’m a Parutz.
You’re another reason why they should cancel Bein-Hazemanim!
Time to learn what Being Odom L’Chavero has to do with the 9 days!
How many Blatt did you learn after Pesach 4 or 5?!?
Shopping 613 -“Look, spiritual safety is defenetly more important, but to do our tafkid we NEED to be healthy”
IDK where this train of thought came into Judaism!
We Jews have a Torah & in the Torah it says Venishmartem etc.
As matter of fact, the Torah has Mitzvos (Lossay & Ahsays) that have to do with health and safety!
So it’s really a Non-Jewish concept to say – “spiritual safety is defenetly more important”!
APY -“Rav Moshe never said such a thing. All i’m saying.
More real that your false attribution to Rav Moshe”
This is from that topic:
“While Rav Moshe writes in Igros Moshe ??”? ?”? ??’ ?”? that being that the chance of getting sick from smoking is only a ??? ???? it’s muttar to smoke if your addicted. Today, after it has been proven that smoking kills most smokers, Rav Reuven Feinstein and others have said hold that Rav Moshe’s psak is clearly not applicable.”
I really don’t care what you think about Rav Moshe’s Psak! His son says that Heter today is Not applicable!
People like you are very dangerous because of your Krumkeit!
Sparkly – I think what you are really asking is why is smoking tolerated in frum society? Why is there not more of an outcry against it and why do girls need to tolerate it and marry smokers against their will? It’s a nasty habit and most girls would prefer without.
It’s a good question and I don’t have a good answer for you. I wish Beis Yaakov girls would get together and protest against this encouraging each other to tell shadchanim that they refuse to go out with any guys who can’t prove that they have not smoked for at least the last six months. When guys see that smoking will cause them difficulties in getting married they’ll think twice (hopefully).
You should be zochei to a mentch that doesn’t smoke!
Health: Quoting R’ Moshe accurately is NOT A KRUMKEIT! If R’ Reuven says that the psak is no longer applicable, then it is HIS psak that his father’s psak no longer applies. R’ Moshe had to pasken with what he knew and understood at the time. Further research has proved that smoking is even more dangerous than what he knew. That doesn’t give us the right to misquote his original psak.
SPARKLY – Let’s put things into perspective. The purpose of life is to become closer to Hashem in all we do, in our own unique way. As long as we are here we need to safeguard our lives so we can continue to grow closer to Him.
Saying that smoking is worse than watching TV, listening to non-Jewish music and going to the movies is absurd. Immersing yourself in non-Jewish culture distances you from Hashem and scews your outlook on life. We want to stay healthy so we can avoid those things.
I’m sorry, but this is really getting me upset.
Consider also, that people have the nisayon of smoking and people have the nisayon of watching movies etc. Because you have one nisayon and not the other, what you are doing is fine, and people with the smoking nisayon are off the d?!
Most people who smoke at least admit that they’d like to quit and they are trying. Am I understanding correctly that you are saying it’s perfectly okay to watch TV, listen to non-Jewish music etc.?
Also, people make mistakes. A young boy who begins smoking is immature. Once he is older it is extremely difficult to stop. Why don’t you try to stop watching movies cold turkey?
shopping: That is incorrect. That is not what addiction means. First of all, your definition makes no sense. People who enjoy watching movies and such won’t die if you cut them off from movies. 99%+ smokers won’t drop dead if you take away their cigarettes. TV may be habit-forming, but that does not equal an addiction. And the pleasure centers in the brain light up for lots of things. Yes, they have found relationships in which pleasure centers between television and heroin. But those same pleasure centers light up during plenty of other things, including religious euphoria, if I recall correctly.
The definition of addiction is that someone goes through withdrawal when it’s removed. No one suffers television or movie withdrawal. It’s enjoyable, and possibly even habit-forming. But it’s not addictive. If someone wants to stop there is no physical or chemical barrier to it.
No. People like you who attribute things to poskim that they never said are the ones who are dangerous. I know what Rav Reuven shlita said. I know what Rav Moshe z’l wrote. I know what you claim he wrote. You don’t do anyone any favors by distorting things. Certainly not Rav Moshe.
My point is not that you should stop because it’s wrong.(although I believe it is, as I mentioned.) My point is: why don’t you get a feel for what it means to stop a pleasurable behavior cold turkey, before calling others who have not risen to the challenge OTD?
Either way, having a hard time with one mitzvah does not make someone off the derech.
Correct me if I’m mistaken, but I’m fairly certain the majority of girls want non-smokers. And I think they have every right to want that – who would willingly bring a source of sakana nefashos into their home? Why should that be the norm? Something is wrong here. Do yeshivos not stress the importance of preserving your own life and those of others by avoiding smoking addictions? Measures should be set in place to prevent this from even happening in the first place – all it takes to fall into it is a bit of applied peer pressure. I know how hard it is to stop. There’s got to be a way to stop it from the start. I hope those articles Sparkly referred to earlier and this discussion will get the ball rolling, somehow. I’m scared for our future.
Well stated!
apushatayid: May I ask to clarify who your last post was addressed to? Was it me? Health? Sparkly?
Thanks
Sparkly- In the 1940s and 50s cigarettes were a form of currency in many parts of the world. It was only in the 60s that we started to hear that smoking was hazardous. Many Rosh Yeshivas smoked up until the 1980s and I tend to doubt they were OTD.
You state “my guy will probably not smoke” does this mean you can’t tell if he smokes or not through either sight or smell. Or does it mean that you really don’t care. Are girls either totally against it or fine with it, why can’t they possibly want and or hope he will quit smoking and think they can convince him to do it.
As for as most of the smokers in your community are OTD. Many smokers in the MO community are rebelling against society and therefor are also rebelling against G-d. There are underlining factors that have to be analyzed before you can get him/her to quit. You are trying to project this onto All Frum smokers. This is like me saying since most of the MOs who come to the Mincha minyan that I go to, learn the Daf ALL MOS learn the Daf. Which I know is not true. MO who take time from their busy day to daven Mincha with a minyan at work are more devoted and more likely to learn the daf.
I.M. Shufilin There is a limit to what Yeshivas can do. It is the parent’s responsibility to know who their children are associating with as many start due to peer pressure. As I previously said they are rebelling against society if you crack down too hard you run the risk of them going OTD. Be careful around Purim this is when many boys start smoking and drinking.
There’s plenty of admirable sentiments here, but also a measure of hyperbole. You can’t overstate the severity of smoking, but you can be far too harsh on those who smoke. And some of the statements up until this point regarding bochurim who smoke have been nothing short of ridiculous.
As has been repeatedly mentioned, virtually all of these bochurim start young due to social pressure, and find it very difficult to stop when older and more mature. These bochurim do not fall into any particular category, and include many who are excellent bochurim in every respect. As such it is utterly wrong to make any judgement on their character or religiosity. And in my considerable experience, even heavy smokers quit immediately and completely when they get married. That’s not to say there aren’t exceptions, but these constitute a tiny minority.
And I say this as a bochur who has never smoked, and dislike it immensely. But some of the vitriol on this thread has been excessive to say the least.
iacisrmma -“Health: Quoting R’ Moshe accurately is NOT A KRUMKEIT! If R’ Reuven says that the psak is no longer applicable, then it is HIS psak that his father’s psak no longer applies. R’ Moshe had to pasken with what he knew and understood at the time. Further research has proved that smoking is even more dangerous than what he knew. That doesn’t give us the right to misquote his original psak.”
APY -“No. People like you who attribute things to poskim that they never said are the ones who are dangerous. I know what Rav Reuven shlita said. I know what Rav Moshe z’l wrote. I know what you claim he wrote. You don’t do anyone any favors by distorting things. Certainly not Rav Moshe.”
I’ll answer both of you together, if there are two, maybe it’s just one with multiple SN’s like Joe!
I quoted Rav Moshe that says being that the chance of getting sick from smoking is only a ??? ???? so therefore it’s Mutter.
From Rav Moshe’s Psak Bechall Hein Lav!
So if it’s Not a ??? ????, then it’s Ossur!
Stop trying to manipulate e/o just to prove that you’re right!
IMS -“There’s got to be a way to stop it from the start.”
Sorry to inform you, I only know of one Yeshiva that doesn’t allow smoking. If s/o would bring in a TV, he’d be chucked out!
IDK why smoking isn’t the same!
Maybe the Yeshivas think that they wouldn’t have any Bochrim left?!?
Health: I have my own opinion and I only use this alias. From what I can see from all of your posts (on this and all other topics) is that YOU ARE THE ONE TRYING TO MANIPULATE EVERYONE. You quoted the sources for the gedolim you mentioned. All I said was that quoting R’ Moshe accurately is not a krumkeit. I never said that R’ Moshe paskened it was muttar to smoke. I personally do not smoke and I wish everyone would stop/not start. My original position though is the same. If Sparkly wants to consider smokers OTD then anyone who:
Drives above the speed limit
passes red lights
crosses in the middle of the street
Eats fatty foods
don’t exercise
bungee jumps
rides a large roller coaster
talk loshon hara
is not shomer negiah
uses air conditioners with shabbos clocks (R’ Moshe paskens that it is assur)
etc are all OTD.
One of the reasons I think Yeshivas don’t outlaw smoking is because some Roshei Yeshiva and Maggidi Shiur (or other authority figures) smoke so it’ll seem hypocritical. Just my two cents, but I may be wrong.
rides a large roller coasterIsn’t that safer than driving?
Comlink-X: It could be……but the point that I believe Sparkly was trying to make, that since the adverse health effects of smoking violates Venishmartem Meod L’nafshoseichim and therefore a person who smokes is OTD. (Sparkly if I am misquoting you please tell me). Since all these other things may also be violations of Venishmartem or are other miztvas asay or a lo sasay…..
I realize the term “OTD” is a fuzzy one, and there is no clear definition, but it certainly doesn’t make sense to categorize someone as such just because he or she has difficulty keeping one mitzvah, or even a number of mitzvos.
Health
In case you forgot, i will paste one of your comments from page 1
YY -“just because someone smokes doesnt mean they are otd!”
Sure they are! As a matter of fact, some Yeshivas will throw out a smoker!
Now
If you are telling me that you are retracting your position, or didn’t mean what you wrote, then I am Ok with that
that said
you didn’t answer my question
do you watch TV?
and if you do, how do you not see the hypocrisy between calling smokers OTD but not TV watchers?
In case you are curious
As I have posted before, I am a health care professional, not a yeshiva bachur. (The Israel trip was vacation). I do not smoke. I happen to have a TV in my waiting room and since I occasionally watch I do feel bad about myself in light of the poskim who deem that pritzus. I didn’t call you a parutz, they did.
If you and Sparkly want, In light of the upcoming yomim noraim, I am willing to quit TV with you guys.
When people quit smoking they often find it easier to do with a buddy. So buddy up with me on quitting TV
At the very least it might give us all a little more empathy with what smokers go through when they try to quit (and that sounds like something that is achdus-dik for the nine days and certainly more productive then calling almost half the frum velt in Israel OTD)
Sparkly
I need to second the notion that calling smoking worse than watching TV is absurd.
I will grant you that its not as bad for women as men. But as any man who has seriously tried to work on his neshama can attest, its the antithesis of ruchnios.
I grew up MO, with a TV in my house, and I’ve been trying to scrub myself clean from this for years.
There are plenty of smokers who are more religious than most TV watchers. I think part of the reason people feel that smoking is worse than watching TV is that even in the secular world there is a stigma against smokers, but not against people watch TV
here’s where i’m a bit confused. so there have been a lot of side points brought up and discussed, but someone with an “unusual” posting style, and the word troll in the subtitle makes a somewhat outlandish statement about smokers = OTD and people are getting crazy offended? really? i mean even knowing how i feel about smokers, the comment was not worth all the headache it seems to have brought about. There are people who say more reasonable things who aren’t taken seriously and this outlandish comment seems to have somehow hit a chord. I would have thought people would shake their heads and move to the next thread. Or at least find a tangent and leave that point behind.
***wondering***
Who makes the subtitles?
Syag:
Wonderfully put. I suppose that when you look at those getting involved on more worthy threads, but ignoring this one, the silent majority seems to have agreed with you. Many of the established users, such as yourself, are giving this thread the attention it deserves. It’s survival as a topic is due to it’s tangential link to the far more interesting general topic of smoking in general.
But the opening post is patently misguided. I made the mistake of getting involved earlier, to my shame, in an effort to stem some of the misguided vitriol that has been directed against smokers. But moving on to the next thread is a far better response. Certainly there seems to be a surfeit of really interesting, informed conversation at the moment, despite interesting topics and threads being relatively common. This thread could have been an interesting discussion about the impacts of smoking, but it’s nothing of the sort.
mentsch1 -“Health
In case you forgot, i will paste one of your comments from page 1
YY -“just because someone smokes doesnt mean they are otd!”
Sure they are! As a matter of fact, some Yeshivas will throw out a smoker!
Now
If you are telling me that you are retracting your position, or didn’t mean what you wrote, then I am Ok with that.”
I personally didn’t call anyone OTD. Yes, I did defend s/o else who did. They have that right to say that, even though I wouldn’t say that!
“In case you are curious
As I have posted before, I am a health care professional, not a yeshiva bachur”
I’m not sure what you are & I’m not sure whether you’re lying or not.
So don’t bother asking me any questions.
I’m not going to answer the ones that you posted, because I’m not sure whether you’re on the up & up!
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