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Notwithstanding the claims against the ELAL pilot etc and the wonderful work of Chabad in Athens, this whole coverage and the continuous new revelations all miss the point, in my humble opinion.
The fact is that anyone who cares about Shabbos which includes all Chareidi and many not yet Chareidi Jews, SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ON THAT FLIGHT EVEN IF IT LEFT ON TIME.
You cannot travel on a long haul flight which is scheduled to land just a few hours before Shabbos. You have just enough time to get to your final destination even if it arrives on time. Bnei Beraq traffic is horrendous at the best of times (I have never traveled on the BB part of route 4 without sitting in traffic. Route 1 to Yerushalayim is also heavy especially on erev shabbos. (lets not even talk about going to Netanya, Haifa or Tzfas)
You then arrive just before shabbos after a long jet lagging journey.
This is called Hachonoh for shabbos, i dont think so.
And that assumes everything goes ok.
No delays in NY, no diversions on route, no long lines at passport and baggage reclaim. no customs inspection. No traffic delays etc etc. Any one of these can cause Chillul shabbos which would NOT be an Oiness.
What is worse is that because so many Yidden do use this flight, ELAL puts it on, which definitely involves some chilul shabbos even after it has landed (the pilot may live in Beer Sheva). So the people who use this flight are actually causing other yidden (Chareidi or not) to be mechallel shabbos.
As has been posted before by myself and others the last flight to EY from NY should be on Thursday morning I would say around dawn,which arrives around midnight, some say lunchtime but certainly not later. I persoanlly travelled from Philadelphia to Tel Aviv on a Wednesday night, it was a nachas to arrive on Thursday evening and was well rested before shabbos.
I am not sure if the Yidden should have been celebrating in the airport or hotel in Athens, Al cheit would have been more appropriate.
Someone posted about the chinuch to children about Kedushas Shabbos. What nonsense!
The only Chinuch was how not to behave.
I am sorry to spoil the euphoria but I feel the need to speak out against this unacceptable practice.I agree
Relax , a lot of gaiva and insecurities in your post
That’s ridiculous. If you want to make your own chumra you’re entitled, but you have no right to demand that others follow it. Five hours is enough buffer time to allow for all reasonable delays; more than that is an extraordinary event that one is not required to allow for, and is certainly not required to lose a day’s work for.
There is no difference between a long- and a short-haul flight. A 15-hour flight is no more subject to delays than a 45-minute one. On the contrary, the longer the flight the more chance there is to make up time lost to delays.
Milhouse is generally right but at some airports, long-haul flights are often given priority in the takeoff que if they have issues on weight, fuel supply or crew flight hours.
I agree with Ferd that it is not ideal to travel on such a long trip so close to Shabbos. It’s not like a trip to the Catskills where you have the option to stop in Monsey or Monroe. However even if Charedim didn’t travel on this flight El Al would still fly it since there were only about 20 Charedim in Athens according to one of the passengers Rabbi Halberstam.
I agree that one shouldn’t fly to close to shabbos. However, feed went a little (or a lot) over the top. People should anticipate delays and plan accordingly. While I will personally never want to drive to the Catskills on a friday, it would be preomus to decide that everyone must do so.
Gadol, that means long-haul flights are <i>better</i> than short ones, and need <i>less</i> of a safety margin for expected delays. So even if five hours is not enough for a one-hour flight it would be enough for a ten-hour one. Exactly the opposite of those who claim the longer the flight the more buffer time one should leave.
Uncle Ben, this is not and never has been about charedim. It’s about shomrei shabbos, and there were a lot more than 20 on board this flight.
Or are you claiming charedim are (or should be) more careful than other observant Jews?! Why? It’s everyone’s shabbos equally; we don’t have different shulchon oruchs depending on the color or style of our clothing or which yeshivah (if any) we attended.
This issue — i think is a little more complicated. (And, i dont know the answer). What is the amount of risk that you are allowed take vis a vis shabbos. (Obviously, if you drive anywhere — there is a chacne that something may happen). If you go back and look at all of the United Thursday 3pm flights and all of the El AL 1pm Thursday Flights — how many of them have not landed on time and therefore caused Chilul SHabbos. I suspect — from the press coverage — that of these 104 flights in the last year — 1 did not make it. That would be a 1% chance. Lets look at all Thursday flights to Israel. If you conclude that the chances of getting to Israel on time is 99% is that sufficient? (We do a similar calculus with elective surgery. Even though there is a certain percentage that you could die during surgery — which is always a chance with general anesthesia — we still allow elective surgery in most instances.) Thus — while I do understand that there is reason to avoid traveling on Thursday/Friday — is the chance of something going wrong hallachically significant?
This whole conversation is absolutely ridiculous!!!
You do you.
question of right and wrong aside,
NO ONE (with the exception of gedoilei hador) has any right whatsoever to force their personal chumras onto others!
What many of the people on this thread where saying to FERD in a VERY polite way was: editedI say this with all seriousness, and not at all with the intention of offending anyone, if I have, please be mochel.
And Milhouse, your comment was very intelligent and someone I know was very touched by it
I copied and pasted and emailed it to the guy
I was told by a rebbi (this is a chumra, not halacha) that when traveling I should leave twice the amount of time it takes to travel before Shabbos. E.G. If its a 2 hour drive, leave 4 hours before Shabbos minimum.
When it comes to flying general aviation, if you plan on an hour flight, expect it to take around 3 hours (preflight, parking, tie- down, delays, weather, traffic…) and you’ll be fine. it usually will be a lot less, but this way you will never be rushed.
When it comes to flying airlines, you need to plan for more time, especially international. A flight to Israel usually takes around 10 hours. Add in drive to the airport, check-in, security, delays, taxiing, unloading plane, passport control (the lines can sometimes take 45 minutes), customs, baggage collection and drive to destination… and the time can easily reach 16- 20 hours, even more. If you double it that’s around 40 hours minimum before Shabbos. If you want to get to your destination early and not the last minute, give yourself a few more hours.
I personally have never flown to Israel later than Wednesday night.
As I said above, this is just what I was told to do by a rebbi. Different rebbeim say to do different things, do what your rebbi says.How ridiculous! So now, I can’t take a Thursday morning flight from Florida to NYC?? 36 hours isn’t enough buffer time for a three hour flight??
The Wolf
Wolf,
How did you come to that conclusion from anything that’s been written here?
Yo, Wolf, go with cessna172. what he is saying got class. 36 hours is more than double, go for 6-9 hours
How did you come to that conclusion from anything that’s been written here?
It says “Frum Jews should NOT fly on Thursdays.”
I guess I’m not a frum Jew, as I have flown on Thursdays before and will probably do so again.
The Wolf
So you’re arguing with a poorly worded headline?
What if i am not frum???
thats a good chap
The OP is under the highly false assumption that ElAl is truly Shomer Shabbos. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Nu, so these people made a mistake, we all (hopefully) learn from our mistakes and based on all the criticism that Elal got for it, they will definitely ensure that such things don’t happen again.
Would anyone here fly on Thursday from Israel to America?
@Cessna172
Flights FROM Israel to USA on Thursday are not a big problem. The clock is with you as you fly west.
El AL leaves Ben Gurion Airport at 12:30 AM and Arrives non-stop JFK 5:25 AM EST. Even a 10 hour delay would not affect Shabbos if you were not making a connecting flight but staying in Metro NY.My 30 Year old just flew in from business in Shanghai. With the time changes, she left Shanghai Monday Jan 7 at 8:20PM C(china)ST and landed JFK after 14 hours in the air Monday Jan 7 at 9:30PM EST.
I have seen this question raised yet I do not think that anyone really addressed it.
Why would it matter how long the flight time is, the possible delay time is not really dependant on the flight time, so just factor in additional time for any delays.
For instance, if a 4 hour delay time is appropriate, why would one need to factor in more than that?
Cessna, what you write in your rebbi’s name is ridiculous. It is not a chumra, it is shtus. As I wrote earlier and you seem to have ignored, a 10-hour flight is no more subject to delays than a 1-hour flight. Whatever buffer you determine is sufficient for a 1-hour flight should be sufficient for a 10- or even 18-hour flight as well. On the contrary, as Gadol pointed out, longer flights actually need less of a safety buffer than shorter ones.
Driving is different, of course; there the risk of delays is on the road, not while sitting in your own home or driveway, so the longer the road the more likely they are.
As a pilot, I know how many factors go into making a flight leave on time, and that if only a few don’t work out, delays or cancellations happen. To you it may seem ridiculous, to me its making 100% sure I’m not being mechalel Shabbos.
If your Rav says to do something different, go ahead and listen to him. Its called listening to daas Torah.
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