Frumster???

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  • #675841
    boredjewishguy
    Participant

    Volvie: I wasn’t being judgmental of shaddchanim in general, I specifically said some of them are good. I continue to use the good ones but frankly I’ve had better luck with shidduchim suggested by friends and family.

    He did not suggest frumster and I didn’t ask him about it b/c I’m not really interested in using it. I’m not comfortable approaching girls and asking them out directly, that’s not how I was brought up. However I think the attitude that guys and girls who try to meet people on their own (for marriage purposes) are doing something wrong, is detrimental and a big part of the shidduch “crisis”.

    #675842
    volvie
    Member

    “I’ve had better luck with shidduchim suggested by friends and family.”

    Beautiful! That is the BEST route, bar none! Continue pursuing that route.

    “I’m not comfortable approaching girls and asking them out directly, that’s not how I was brought up.”

    And that is the proper way to bring up Bnei Yisroel. So your parents brought you up quite well. 🙂

    Following this proper derech, is why we the shidduch crisis is not much worse than it currently is.

    #675843

    And that’s the way my 4 married children did it.

    #675844
    haifagirl
    Participant

    “My Rav actually suggested that I use one of these sites.”

    Did he suggest Frumster particularly?

    My Rav has absolutely no problem with my use of Frumster. He helped me write my profile. When I find someone I might be interested in, I e-mail him the profile and he gives me his opinion.

    However, to be fair, I have not yet dated anyone from Frumster, and I’ve been on it a few years.

    #675845
    boredjewishguy
    Participant

    “And that is the proper way to bring up Bnei Yisroel. So your parents brought you up quite well. 🙂 “

    I agree, my parents did a good job, thanks. However, I do think that once we reach the age that we’re ready for marriage, there should be more open communication between boys and girls. My parents would not have a problem with me asking a girl out directly, so long as I wasn’t asking simply b/c I thought she was good looking.

    #675846
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    “I’m not comfortable approaching girls and asking them out directly, that’s not how I was brought up.”

    And that is the proper way to bring up Bnei Yisroel. So your parents brought you up quite well. 🙂

    Um, didn’t men pick out women on Tu B’av?

    #675847
    oomis
    Participant

    SJS, I thought it was the other way around on Tu B’Av.

    As to approaching girls directly – we are not talking about picking them up in bars, for goodness sakes! There are many venues through which girls and boys could meet each other in a protected and halachically acceptable environment. They can talk to each other, get to know each other a bit, and then decided if they are interested in going out together, which would happen by the boy (horrors!) asking for the girl’s phone number, getting it, and calling her up. yes, yes, no, no.If one is uncomfortable with doing that, then an alternative approach must be used, but it is not fair to think that doing it that way or getting a number from a friend and calling the girl, indicates an improper upbringing. Rather it indicates that a young man has been brought up to be an independent and pro-active individual, which is a good thing, IMO.

    #675849
    volvie
    Member

    If you start allowing girls to exchange their phone numbers with guys, it will lead to indecency. No, not in every case; maybe not even in most cases. But it will happen, and that is why the rabbonim shlita are resolutely and vigorously opposed to it.

    #675850
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    If you start allowing girls to exchange their phone numbers with guys, it will lead to indecency. No, not in every case; maybe not even in most cases. But it will happen, and that is why the rabbonim shlita are resolutely and vigorously opposed to it.

    And if you allow people to talk on the telephone, it will lead to lashon hara. No, not in every case; maybe not even in most cases. But it will happen, and that is why the rabbonim shlita are resolutely and vigorously opposed to it.

    Wait, what… they’re not? 🙂

    The Wolf (who had the audacity to look up the phone number of a girl he was interested in.)

    #675851
    volvie
    Member

    Wolf,

    The danger of boy/girl indecency is far greater and far more serious with far more tragic consequences and a potentially far greater sin than the potential for loshon hara via telephone.

    “The Wolf (who had the audacity to look up the phone number of a girl he was interested in.)”

    WHAT!? I thought you are married!!

    JK

    #675852
    oomis
    Participant

    Volvie, with all due respect to you (and I do respect your hashkafa, I am not being sarcastic), I could not disagree with you more. Ehrliche frum girls in the decades of the 50s through the 90s met their zivugim in this way, and it led not to indeceny, but to marriage. Yes, there will always R”L be people who behave inappropriately, and by that I mean indecently. The fact that ‘some” people might be nichshal dos not mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    Many, many shidduchim were made b’tznius and with the most honorable of intentions, through people meeting at Shul youth groups, Bnei Akiva, informal gatherings, etc. And btw, you don’t “allow” girls to give their numbers to someone whom they have met in a wholesome environment. If they are old enough to be ready for marriage, they are old enough to give a guy their number without needing special permission. That being said, if in your particular circles it is not ever done that way, then by all means keep to the status quo, and may all the single girls and fellows find their proper zivugim ASAP.

    #675853
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The danger of boy/girl indecency is far greater and far more serious with far more tragic consequences and a potentially far greater sin than the potential for loshon hara via telephone.

    OK, so let’s up the stakes…

    If you start allowing girls and guys to drive, it will lead to injuries and fatalities. No, not in every case; maybe not even in most cases. But it will happen, and that is why the rabbonim shlita are resolutely and vigorously opposed to it.

    Wait, what… they’re not? 🙂

    The Wolf

    #675854
    volvie
    Member

    That’s why we are blessed with having our Gedolei Yisroel shlita make these decisions of yea or nay on these serious issues. Most people who engage in bungee jumping come out okay. Yet I doubt if asked any godol will tell you its okay to do.

    #675857
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    OK, let’s do this.

    So, volvie, why is it that exchanging phone numbers, which might lead to indecency is bad, but driving, which can lead to worse, is okay?

    The Wolf

    #675858
    volvie
    Member

    Actually indecency is potentially far worse than a driving accident.

    But to answer your question, exchanging phone numbers is worse than bungee jumping. Since we can agree (I assume) that banning the latter is correct, the former follows.

    #675860
    boredjewishguy
    Participant

    Volvie: I’m not so sure that bungee jumping should be banned, how about skydiving or taking flying lessons, should they be banned as well?

    I don’t think that banning girls and boys who are of marriageable age, from exchanging phone numbers is going to prevent anyone who would do “indecent” things from doing them. It’s like making guns illegal so bad guys can’t get guns, they get them anyway.

    #675862
    oomis
    Participant

    Volvie, it is likewise clear that married women should not be out in the work force either, because it could lead to them meeting guys who are more interesting, educated, and financially solvent than their husbands. I think we are over-thinking here.

    #675863
    volvie
    Member

    bored: I believe it is halachicly assur to unnecessarily engage in a dangerous activity (i.e. bungee jumping.)

    We have gedarim for a reason. It may not stop everyone everytime, but it certainly significantly reduces the likelihood of something untowardly occurring.

    oomis: That point you make isn’t off-base. Why do you think under ideal circumstances women should not work outside the home?

    #675864
    oomis
    Participant

    I am very VERY old-fashioned, Volvie, and I believe ideally a woman should stay home and do the job for which Hashem created us, which is to raised the next generation of frum kids (she, and not her nanny or housekeeper, no matter how good they are with kids). I do not apologize for my belief in this regard. I raised five terrific kids (so I am told they are, and quite frequently), and together with my husband I believe we instilled the right values and middos in them. Not one single child of mine grew up to be self-serving, “es kumpt tzu mir” types, or off the derech, but rather are baalei chessed, genuinely caring, kind-hearted, and loving, devoted to their family and friends, and people with whom I enjoy spending my time.

    While I do not feel this is not also possible in a home where the mother works outside, I have seen a great deal of neglectful behavior in those circumstances, children who call their maids “mommy,” and kids who are not watched properly and run wild wherever they go. I cannot believe this is what Hashem wants of us in the final an analysis. And no, I am not sufficiently financially comfortable (SO FAR FROM THAT), that I could afford to stay home. My husband and I made that decision for the benefit of our children, while they were in their formative years and until all were in school full-time. I then took flexible part-time work both a few hours by day and a few hours at night (when my husband was home), so as to be an available parent. Not every woman can do so in the present economically-challenging times in which we find ourselves, but I have been talking about an ideal situation, after all.

    #675865
    boredjewishguy
    Participant

    Volvie: Bungee jumping is not really that dangerous, see the quote below that I stole from a website without verifying it’s accuracy.

    “Statistics have shown that one bungee jump is approximately as dangerous as travelling one hundred and sixty-one kilometres by automobile. This statistic conveys that the chances of death are about one in five hundred thousand.”

    #675866
    haifagirl
    Participant

    Actually indecency is potentially far worse than a driving accident.

    Huh? A driving accident could kill not only the driver, but several innocent people as well. Indecency could lead to what? (Okay, we all know what it could lead to, but is that worse than killing people?)

    #675867
    smartcookie
    Member

    Shfichas damim and gilui aroyos are in the same category….

    #675868
    volvie
    Member

    A driving accident could kill not only the driver, but several innocent people as well. Indecency could lead to what? (Okay, we all know what it could lead to, but is that worse than killing people?)

    Indecency can lead to spiritual death (of multiple people) which is worse than physical death.

    #675869
    haifagirl
    Participant

    Indecency can lead to spiritual death (of multiple people) which is worse than physical death.

    Would it really? Admittedly it could lead to a lot of problems. But spiritual death?

    Those people can still do teshuva. They can still perform many, many mitzvos. Those who are physically dead cannot.

    #675870
    volvie
    Member

    Absolutely it can. And has. Many times unfortunately. It can, G-d forbid, lead one (or more) completely astray.

    And they don’t always do teshuva most unfortunately. Some have been lost forever.

    It isn’t worth the risk, however large the risk is the results can be catastrophic.

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