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  • #786339

    happiest
    Member

    msseeker- who said it is as bad as by others? It was said that it is rampant but no1 ever said that it is as bad as in other societies.

    Also, ask any therapist, social worker, or psychiatrist. They will tell you that more than half their patients have some type of history of abuse.

    #786340

    im sorry happiest your last comment really doesnt make much sense

    ask any psychiatrist and theyll tell you that 98% of their patients have a mental disorder. that doesnt mean that mental disorers are rampant. ask any orthopedic surgeon and he will tell you that 40% of his patients have fractured bones. that doesnt mean that fractures are rampant.

    #786341

    msseeker
    Member

    “Rampant” and “cover-up” give the impression of being at least as bad as others, if not worse. But Minyan Gal wrote:

    “Many things are just as common in the Jewish community as in the general community at large – they are just not spoken of or covered up. Drug addiction and alcoholism are very common, but you don’t often hear of it. I remember at least 20 years ago during the sermon on Yom Kippur, the Rabbi was talking about just this topic and then in a loud voice (I actually almost levitated from my seat) he said “I am sick and tired of visiting my congregants in the hospital who are there for alcoholism – the statistics would shock you.” So, why should the incidence of child abuse be any different?”

    I can assure you that the fastest-growing Orthodox populations, i.e. Chassidish & Yeshivish, are not among Minyain Gal’s rabbi’s flock, so she’s welcome to preach in MO forums (where all they do is bash us frummies), not here.

    #786344

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Imagine you had a Library of Seforim a full room of them, And someone told you there was a book of prizus in there somewhere. They did not tell you the name of the book or magazine or tell you where it was.

    I am fairly certainly most of you would turn that library upside down looking for that prizus material.

    #786345

    happiest
    Member

    mod80- good point. It didn’t make much sense. Sorry about that.

    Listen, I’m going to say this. I can’t fight anymore with people. If they don’t want to admit or can’t see that it is as common as many people are saying it is then fine. We’re each allowed to think and see things differently than others. I am now officially taking a step back from this thread. Can’t say I enjoyed it while I was here since it isn’t a very enjoyable topic but thanks e/o for all your input.

    msseeker- I can’t speak for minyan gal but your last statement does seem a bit harsh. My personal opinion though:))

    #786346

    observanteen
    Member

    Zahavasdad: Sure. But I wouldn’t say it has just as much schmutz as does the secular libraries. I don’t really get the point you’re trying to make.

    #786347

    msseeker
    Member

    MY statement seems harsh? How about MG’s unsubstantiated, self-confident claim, isn’t that harsh?

    I wasn’t fighting with you, Happiest, just the assumption that it’s terribly rampant. As I said, even one is too much, but exaggeration will always backfire. I commend you for broaching this painful subject and I wish you all the best.

    #786350

    kapusta
    Participant

    msseeker- Recently Rabbi Horowitz was interviewed on Talkline. One caller said he’d been abused but never told anyone. I don’t think this was one story, I think it happens more often than we realize (or maybe I should say happened, B”H there is more awareness now). I don’t think most people go around with a sign saying what they went through, and I’m not sure that everybody gets help for it so theres no way of knowing even if the numbers (from therapists) are the actual numbers.

    And congratulations. You got me to talk to the computer screen

    (actually twice). It might be a good idea to keep in mind that part of Torah is Bein Adam L’chaveiro.

    *kapusta*

    #786351

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think zahavasdad made a great point. No matter how low the percentage is (we hope very), we still must do our utmost to find any perpetrator, and do whatever it takes to stop him.

    I think his analogy is terrific for another reason as well. Just as something untzniusdik would draw much more attention in a library of seforim than in a secular library (which has considerably more), so does such horrible behavior stick out much more in the Torah world than in the broader society.

    #786352

    adorable
    Participant

    zahavasdaad- I agree with your post but not that what it has to do with what we are discussing.

    #786353

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    before Pesach your house is entirely cleaned, EVEN ONE CRUMB of Chametz is not allowed.

    In most respects people feel this way like in the case of the one shmutz in the Library of Seforim.

    But it seems in this one issue people are willing to look away , put their heads in the sand , make up excuses and do anything except find that one crumb before Pesach.

    That is what I dont understand, I dont think the house is full of Chametz, It was cleaned. But that crumb is still there and you are required to search for it COMPLETELY

    #786355

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    It may not be “rampant”, but I think it’s safe to say that almost everyone knows at least one person that was affected by abuse in some way. I stayed away from this topic until now because I was, and still am, greatly affected by abuse, and I didn’t want to get involved. But without getting into details, I strongly agree that it is unfortunately covered up and ends up negatively impacting many more people than it should have. We must stop protecting, and open our eyes to the damage it causes, however ugly and terrible the truth might look, and prevent possible future calamities.

    Happiest, may G-d give you the strength to deal with everything you are going through in a positive way. You seem to be a happy person in general, and that is incredible due to what you’ve dealt with. I give you all the respect in the world.

    #786356

    happiest
    Member

    middlepath, I wasn’t planning on posting again on this thread but I had to for you. I am so sorry that you have suffered thru this. All I can say is stay strong!!! I know it’s not saying much but I honestly don’t think that there is much that one can say in a situation like this.

    You should have hatzlacha in your recovery!!! It’s not easy but it is possible. I am a true testament to that!!

    Have a great shabbos!

    #786357

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    Thanks, happiest. Every little bit of encouragement and understanding helps both of us, and everyone dealing with similar things.

    #786358

    gefen
    Participant

    “The only thing left is for parents to educate their kids I don’t care how old they are. a 3 year old is old enough to understand. You explain in simple terms not to go ANYWHERE secluded with ANYONE, even if hes frum and even if he looks like a Rebbe…not into a car not into a room…and that nobody has a right to touch them in places “private places” and if someone tries to then make sure to tell Totty/Daddy and Mommy about it immediately no matter what the man…said.” (quoted from WIY on the prev. page)

    That’s EXACTLY what i did when my kids were young – gave them the “talk”. i would tell my son at a young age that when learning in yeshiva or shul, he must stay in the main room with everyone else. even if the rebbe he is learning with says it will be quieter in another room, let’s go in there – always say NO (with respect of course). I told him that hopefully all the rebbeim we know can be trusted but one must always be careful.

    I’ve heard too many stories!!! in our community alone, there are many individuals who have been accused and proven guilty of abuse. it’s not as uncommon as many ppl would like to believe. it’s scary!

    i give so much credit to all those who have been through it and come through with flying colors. yes – i’m sure the emotional scars will always be there, but the fact that you can get on with your lives is amazing. much hatzlacha to anyone who’s been through it. it’s also amazing that you can alert the public about it. it should NOT be swept under the rug.

    #786359

    the.nurse
    Member

    msseeker – i know 3 people who have been abused by their OWN family members. in that situation, telling kids to watch our for others wouldn’t help, would it?

    and no, i’m not involved with OTD kids. i’m a typical frum person who happens to know 3 different families where abuse went on. so yes, it does go on, more often than you think.

    80 – if you meant what you said, then lucky you that you don’t know about abuse in the fum community. but don’t assume it doesn’t happen. it does. way too often.

    #786360

    Health
    Participant

    msseeker – “And I’ll bet my bottom $ that the more TV, videos, shmutzy books, magazines, newspapers, the more molestation.”

    This could be true amongst Goyim, but not amongst Yidden. From those whom I know to be molesters or accused to be molesters, none came from the background where they were exposed to such things. Most actually were/are in Rebbe or Principal positions. If anything one could make an argument that maybe we shouldn’t be so strict on these things like you mentioned because some people need an outlet and if having this outlet we can prevent molestation in our community.

    #786361

    msseeker
    Member

    “Most actually were/are in Rebbe or Principal positions.”

    Of course, Health, because these are the ones in close proximity to kids, and in a position of authority over them. My “bet” is that the more muttar it is in a community to watch TV, videos, read secular mags etc., the higher the molestation incidence. It’s simple: ???? ????, ???? ????, ???? ???? ??????. The “outlet” soon gets boring and breeds more exciting “outlets”, i.e. infidelity, molestation, etc.

    Nurse, I was talking about abuse from strangers, not family. This is a completely different problem, with completely different solutions, if there are any. Firstly, The abuser has more control over the victim than the community. Unless the victim asks for help and is willing to disrupt his/her family life, how can we stop the perp? Secondly, outing the perp will hurt the victim in shidduchim.

    I personally know 2 families where molestation was going on. In 1 case the community askan begged the mother to get away and promised to help her, but she didn’t listen till it was almost too late. In the other (which I know only superficially) the mother seems to be very immature, and herself abusive. BTW Both mothers are from broken homes.

    #786362

    msseeker
    Member

    P.S. I know most victims keep it secret, and I agree the problem is more widespread than most people think, but I’m sure it’s LESS widespread than SOME people think.

    #786363

    minyan gal
    Member

    ms seeker – your barbs directed towards me are completely uncalled for as is any form of rudeness anywhere in the CR. We all have opinions and this is a discussion forum, regardless of the backgrounds of the posters.

    #786364

    Droid
    Member

    I totally agree with mod80, DaasYochid, msseeker and all the others who said this is a very very (relatively speaking) small issue Baruch Hashem. And even one case is very terrible, but overall B”H it is far far better than in any other community in the world.

    #786365

    kapusta
    Participant

    minyan gal: If its worth anything, I really enjoy your posts. Don’t let one persons comments bother you. (Easier said than done, I know.)

    *kapusta*

    #786366

    Health
    Participant

    msseeker – “My “bet” is that the more muttar it is in a community to watch TV, videos, read secular mags etc., the higher the molestation incidence. It’s simple: ???? ????, ???? ????, ???? ???? ??????. The “outlet” soon gets boring and breeds more exciting “outlets”, i.e. infidelity, molestation, etc.”

    You could bet as much as you want, but I don’t think you speak the Emes (not mss). I don’t have a lot of Shaychus to modern communities, but yet I’ve not heard one case of molestation from

    them taking place from either a Rebbe or Principal. The cases I know about are from the Frummest communities. If you have knowledge of molestation that has occured in the modern communities, please post.

    Posting any theories you want, from today till tomorrow, without any proof doesn’t change anything besides stroking your ego!

    #786367

    m in Israel
    Member

    Without addressing whether this problem is rampant where, we all agree that ANY such cases are too many. I want to just reinforce something that was mentioned by previous posters. The first line of defense against abuse, even from family members is to educate our children.

    From a very young age kids should be taught that they NEVER need to keep a secret from those who care about them. If anyone does something to them or makes them do something and tells them not to tell anyone, they should immediately tell a parent or another adult that they trust. Even if they promised not to tell, or if the person told them they will get in trouble, or if the person telling them to keep a secret is a relative or teacher, they still MUST always tell someone else. Older kids can understand that if an adult or older child is doing something to/with them and insisting on secrecy, that is a sign that it is likely wrong.

    And of course kids should be taught that their bodies belong to them, and no one is allowed to touch them in a way that makes them feel uncomfortable. Also no one may touch them, and they should not touch anyone else in any private part of the body, even if it does not bother them or feel bad, and if it happens they should make sure to tell an adult they trust right away.

    Molesters depend on the secrecy of their victims. Empowering children to break that secrecy in the very early stages of an abusive relationship is one of the main preventative actions we can take.

    #786368

    adorable
    Participant

    I agree that its an issue in the jewish world just the same as the rest but its definitely not spoken about as much. Does that mean that its something that should be spoken about to young innocent children? Should you teach them somethings that might not be appropriate for them to know but you could prevent them from falling prey?

    #786369

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    I think it is very appropriate for them to know. There are ways of explaining it even to very young kids that will make them understand without getting into too much “mature” material.

    #786370

    m in Israel
    Member

    adorable — There is absolutely no need to teach “young innocent children” anything “not appropriate for them to know” in order to protect them. You need to teach them things that are very appropriate for them to know. Read my previous post for some ideas, but in summary, you need to teach them not to keep secrets and that their body belongs to them and no one has the right to touch them or even look at certain parts of their body without a very good reason (i.e. a doctor). The second part can be a very natural part of teaching tznius in general to young kids. I have discussed these topics with my kids starting from about 4 years old, and never felt the need to discuss anything inappropriate.

    #786371

    adorable
    Participant

    I agree with you that there is a way to discuss it with them in a age appropriate way but if you have a child who asks lots of questions you might find yourself in sticky situations. I think this talk is necessary (the lying part more so…) but just be prepared

    #786372

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    adorable, I can’t see a situation in which one would have to lie to a child to prevent saying something inappropriate. There is always a tasteful way of saying something. I think lying itself is inappropriate.

    #786373

    adorable
    Participant

    I did not mean that you should lie to them but you should be careful with what you tell them and be prepared for questions.

    #786374

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    Oh. I’m sorry about my previous post, then. It probably came across like I was attacking you..please forgive me. Your’e right, one should be careful and prepared for questions.

    #786375

    minyan gal
    Member

    kapusta: Thank you for your support. At least I know that one person here can accept my comments – knowing what direction that I come from. We are all K’lal Yisroel. I also thank you for your wonderful posts – I have learned a lot from you. One of the main reasons that I love YWN and CR is all the things that I have learned from people like you. ): (supposed to be a smile)

    #786376

    m in Israel
    Member

    adorable — If your child is asking you a question, it means they are ready to hear your answer, which should always be truthful. Hence you still don’t have that problem of “teaching them something that is inappropriate for them to know.” Again, what about the above points would lead to inappropriate questions? I honestly cannot think of any to be prepared for, and my kids are real “questioners”!

    Telling a child that no one is allowed to touch them in the private parts of the body is not any more “inappropriate” then telling them that no one is allowed to punch them.

    I have had this conversation numerous times with all my kids and have never been asked an “inappropriate” question. The most awkward question I was asked was “why would someone do that anyway?”, to which I explained that most people don’t, but sometimes there are people who may have problems that make them do strange or wrong things, and that’s why if something like that ever happens you should tell me right away, no matter who it is, so you can be safe and we can make sure the person’s sickness is taken care off.

    I think that since adults tend to be very uncomfortable talking about personal topics they project their awkward feelings about this topic on to their kids. Most kids can deal with this information in a very matter of fact way, as long as the parent is calm and matter of fact. In general it is important for kids to feel they can ask you any question and that no topic is taboo — don’t you want to be their source of information when they have questions on these topics? But this particular conversation is nothing to worry about. (I’ve had much more “sticky” questions just in the normal course of life events. . . )

    #786378

    phrum
    Member

    No Quarter! Never Again! No materr how “frum” or “frei”, whether, “‘Mr.”, “Dr.”, “Reb” or “Rabbi”! Dan l’kaf zchut to our and all children’s protection! Confronting Evil is the Kiddush HaShem!

    #786379

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    This is not the first time he tried to abduct a child 🙁

    #786380

    Health
    Participant

    zahavasdad -Where did you hear that?

    #786383

    happiest
    Member

    I know I said I wouldn’t post on this thread anymore but being that no one else feels the need to, I think that I have to.

    I just heard on the news that Levi Aron stalked other boys and that he tried to kidnap other boys before this. This makes him a pedophile.

    I am begging everyone to not turn the other way when they know there is a pedophile/child molester in their midst. Please please report it to the authorities immediately. No one deserves to suffer from these people. I’m assuming that most people would feel very guilty if they KNEW that a certain person was an abuser and didn’t report it but then this abuser would either escalate to killing someone or the abusee would kill himself. I think people would feel very guilty over something like that. Let’s try to prevent that from happening!!

    I hope this post gets posted… I know my last 2 didn’t get posted. I understand why, this is a VERY SORE TOPIC!!

    #786384

    Droid
    Member

    Aron never molested anyone. The police commissioner said as such.

    #786385

    happiest
    Member

    Thank you mods!!!!

    #786386

    Another name
    Participant

    happiest, well said! 🙂

    Droid, I hope you don’t think that Aron’s behavior came out of nowhere. Reported or not reported, this could not possibly have been his first incident.

    #786387

    Droid
    Member

    Every criminal has a first incident. There’s no reason to currently think he wasn’t caught after his first incident.

    #786388

    Another name
    Participant

    So what do you assume “triggered” this first incident? This would be an awfully big and sick starting crime to just come out of the blue…

    #786389

    happiest
    Member

    Droid, they’re thinking that this is not his first time. There is evidence that he stalked other young boys as well and it is also said that that he probably got rid of evidence of what he did to little Leiby, a”h. I also heard from someone who was in on the details that we weren’t privy to know and he said things are being kept quiet about this issue so yes we don’t know for sure if he did it but chances are yes, he did and that there was a cover up.

    #786390

    Droid
    Member

    happiest: The cops said this was the first, and there was no abuse in this case. Said Ray Kelly, NYC Police Commish. Maybe you know better than the police commissioner based on tabloid reports?

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