- This topic has 67 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 8 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
up vote
0
down vote
favorite
Rav Chaim Kanyevski Shlita has a list of names that he conciders “Torah Names” that one can use is this name among those?
Where does this name come from, the meaning of it, and how is it spelled in Hebrew?
I’ve heard it only a few times and it interests me to get to its background.
I thought for a few minutes about how I could answer most offensively, but I could not come up with anything that met my standards. If you chose a name you heard a couple times because it sounded cute, R’ Chaim Kanievsky’s advice on legitimate names should not be your concern.
R’Chaim Kanievsky has a list of “legitimate names”?? I have a very hard time believing that.
What is your source that he has such a list?
Rav Chaim doesn’t have a list. He said names should not be used if they have no traditional basis among Jews to use them. (And he isn’t shy about specifying names which are inappropriate.)
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-name-shira-asur
I’ll guess that the name Raylah is short for Yisraelah, a name given to a girl who is being named for a man named Yisrael.
One of my daughter’s names is a highly unusual one. But there is absolutely no doubt that R. Kanievsky would consider it a Jewish name.
The Wolf
Joseph,
How long/often does a name need to be used before it is considered a “traditional”? And how do “new” names, such as “Chaim” (no one in Tanach or Shas has that name), become acceptable?
Is this explained in any sefer from R’Chaim somewhere? (I apologize for not reading through that other thread).
benignuman: I don’t know the answer but Rav Chaim does. And surely others do as well; perhaps even a lurker here.
I wonder if it’s appropriate that I join the discussion; since people are mentioning and quoting Rav Chaim, and I’m not pretending to bring any level of knowledge or Halachic expertise to the table.
But the way I look at names is similar to the way I look at music. Nobody (I think) will argue with the premise that we’re living in a Dor which is very weak in certain areas, and influenced by a particularly degenerate culture that surrounds us in our current Galus. We are blessed, as in every Dor, with Talmidei Chachamim and Manhigim who are here to be Marbitz Torah and keep us on the right path. But the rest of us are sometimes, unfortunately, influenced by our surroundings. So while Niggunim that were composed back in the ‘Alte Heim’ a few generations ago may stir our souls, some of the music composed today is suspect, and might not belong in our. So too for names. Those that have been in use for a few generations or a few hundred years, are fine. Some of the names brought into vogue very recently may not have the same Kedusha as the very old ones.
Just my take on it…
What is the difference between taking Germanic ( Yiddish ) names and spelling them with Hebrew letters and spelling Bob with Hebrew letters? Remember, prior to the 1500’s there was no minhag to support using Yiddish names as Yiddish didn’t exist.
Yiddish is over 1,000 years old.
Joseph, you didn’t address the main point Yiddish names are of Germanic origin ,and have no intrinsic kedusha other that being phonetically spelled with Hebrew letters. It was simply the Germanic Jews ( and later the Eastern European Jews ) everyday language. It was no different that the Arameic names in the Gemara. At one point in time, there was no minhag or mesora to use Yiddish names.
Rav Ovadia Yosef ztl’s real news was Abdullah.
in shhuchan aruch and tur one can find a list of names in hilchos gittin and kesubos as a jewish name can be me’akev. however yiddish or arabic names which are a literal translation aryeh -leib ovadia-abullah are considered real names as they are interchangeable.
Golfer
I enjoyed your post very much.
I think it indicates an intuitive grasp of Daas Torah.
Which is not enough to poskin with, but sure is crucially important.
We see in this very CR erudite theological scholars who can’t tell a Yid from a goy.
Nice to meet you.
I second on that. Feivel: thanks for making me read it.
Thank you feivel.
Likewise.
golfer: While I see your point, I have some of the same arguments on it that I had when you made this same post about music a while back :).
Picking an arbitrary date after which it is wrong to make change doesn’t make sense to me.
You mean like the arbitrary dates that distinguish between zugos and tanaaim, tanaaim and amoroim, amoroim and savoroim,, savoroim and geonim, geonim and rishonim, rishonim and achronim?
It doesn’t make sense to me either, but maybe it makes sense to someone like HaRav Kanievsky.
Golfer was only speculating anyway. We don’t know. But I see no reason to dismiss the speculation as nonsense.
Either as I posted above, or, perhaps, the second and sixth notes of the sol-fa musical scale.
Um, feivel, yes it’s her speculation, and I’m equally entitled to make the point I made. I even get where she’s coming from, even if I don’t understand it.
The dividing lines you mention are a very different type, and give us clarity when deciding psak halacha. The only possible connection I can see is in levels and yeridas hadoros, but there is no way to know if that applies here.
No, I have no idea why R Kanievsky decided what he decided. It is a fact, however (and with no disrespect intended) that many do not hold as he holds. (I have several close relatives named Shira, for instance, including one whose name was basically picked out by the rebbe of her family’s chassidus.)
Some names also seem more modern but were in fact used long before the current era; I was very surprised to find out that my chassidishe great-great-great-grandfather named his daughter Tehilla back in Poland.
To answer the OP, I’m pretty sure that Raylah is a Yiddish version of the name ‘Rochel’. Not sure how it is spelled or where it comes from, but I assure you it’s a real thing.
About names bichlal, Rav Moshe has a teshuvah (I.M. orach chaim 4:66) where he says clearly about non-lashon kodesh names–“?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????.” In case this is shayach, he also says it is fine to name your kid after a relative that had a sheim laaz, since it’s an inyan of “kovod hamishpacha.”
Aside from the halacha, there is a midrash that says ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??, and some kabbala/chassidish mekoros (arizal shaar hagilgulim, sefas emes, etc) mention the power that a name to effect your neshama and reflect your whole purpose of existence. vehameivin yovin… Maybe that is why Rav Chaim frowns on certain modern names. Or, he sees Israel as a time/place of gezeiras hamelech (ie shmad), in which case Jews shouldn’t even change their shoelaces (sanhedrin 74a). Rashi there implies that any “minhag b’alma” that has a “tzad yehudis” should not be changed during shmad, which certainly includes old customarily Jewish names. Tzarich iyun..
I think so far, I have heard three completely different versions of what R’ Chaim’s objection to the name Shira is. So I take all of them with a grain of salt.
And not to be pogeiah in the kavod of Maran Sar HaTorah R’ Chaim in any way, but it should be noted that other Gedolim (such as R’ Shteinman) do not believe there is anything wrong with the name Shira.
Veltz Meshugener:
I thought for a few minutes about how I could answer most offensively, but I could not come up with anything that met my standards.
Creep.
Mw 13, what were the three?
1) A Jew should have a name found in Nach (which is kinda strange, cause as far as I know Chaim isn’t a name in Nach either)
2) Shira is a davar she’ain bo mamash and/or a shtus, and Jewish names should have more significance.
3) It comes from non-Jewish or secular Zionist influence/origins.
i dont know how many people were told that by R, Chaim shlita, or how it was said. But i do know two of the shiras who changed their names. Neither went to R Chaim saying ,”Hi, can I keep my name?”. They went for brachos and his response, from what i remember, was that Shira is not a name. My understanding was that we don’t really know if the need to change the name was somehow connected to the bracha he was giving them or the desire for one. Perhaps if they weren’t in need of certain things in their lives, they would not have needed to change their names.
I don’t mean that he made up the reason, ch”v, i just mean that it may not always apply.
I myself have never asked.
Mw13, I heard #3.
I was in a shul once when a Shira’s name was changed, based on R’ Chaim’s say so. The rav of the shul was asked if they should follow. He asked R’ Dovid Feinstein, who said to listen to R’ Chaim.
So I would suggest to anyone whose name is Shira and wants to keep it, not to tell it to R’ Chaim.
Similarly, many clean shaven men go to R’ Chaim only after not shaving for several days, so he shouldn’t tell them to grow a beard, and men with payos behind their ears take them out. I would probably take off my wristwatch as well.
The name Chaim is in Rishonim, by the way.
1) A Jew should have a name found in Nach (which is kinda strange, cause as far as I know Chaim isn’t a name in Nach either)
There is the objection you yourself mentioned. There is also plenty of other names that are widely used with no objections that aren’t names in the Torah either. So why “pick on” Shira?
2) Shira is a davar she’ain bo mamash and/or a shtus, and Jewish names should have more significance.
Again, you could make the same argument for any number of other names. Chaim, Shalom, etc.
3) It comes from non-Jewish or secular Zionist influence/origins.
“Shira” means song. Songs are pretty much universal. Jews in the Torah sang songs.
The Wolf
It’s not just Shira.
So I would suggest to anyone whose name is Shira and wants to keep it, not to tell it to R’ Chaim.
Similarly, many clean shaven men go to R’ Chaim only after not shaving for several days, so he shouldn’t tell them to grow a beard, and men with payos behind their ears take them out. I would probably take off my wristwatch as well.
Why would anyone take subversive action to attempt to fool the godol hador in order to avoid hearing something from the godol?
Rav Chaim knows better than any of us. Tell it to him as it is and let him tell you and I the emes.
Should people avoid telling him they have a TV because he will tell them to get rid of it? What’s the point of soliciting his eitzos if one will avoid it, close his ears, not follow it or thinks he is mistaken.
Syag Lchochma:
If R’ Chaim says the problem with the name Shira (amongst others) is that it’s not a name, I think it’s highly probable that he holds this an inherent problem, not just a way of getting brachos.
Wolf:
It appears that R’ Chaim holds that a name must meet certain criteria to be considered a Jewish name. This is indeed not just about Shira; that’s just the most (or perhaps only) common application.
1) Also, it should be noted that although Chaim is not a name in Nach, it is still a word used in Nach; perhaps R’ Chaim holds that that is enough.
[mods, would you mind adding this into my previous post? It would read: A Jew should have a name found in Nach (which is kinda strange, cause as far as I know Chaim isn’t a name in Nach either. However, it should be noted that although Chaim is not a name in Nach, it is still a word used in Nach; perhaps R’ Chaim holds that that is enough.)]
2) Chaim and Shalom, life and peace, are certainly no shtus; they are important ideals.
3) The problem isn’t that the concept of song is foreign to Judaism; that is obviously not true. The problem is that naming somebody “Song” is not a Jewish concept.
So I don’t see a pircha on any of these girsa’os of R’ Chaim’s memrah.
Joseph:
I really don’t think what DY is suggesting is subversive at all. As I’ve pointed out, there are other Gedolim who disagree with R’ Chaim’s position on the name Shira; the same applies to shaving, peyos, and watches as well. So li’halacha, one certainly has who to rely on.
But there’s a different issue at hand here. The issue is that if somebody of R’ Chaim’s immense stature tells you to do something, you do it. Even if there is no halachic chiyuv, it is simply a lack of respect to ignore the direct instructions of such a great man.
R’ Asher Areilli is known for his Torah-only approach; he very rarely deals with anything besides learning. But a couple of years ago, R’ Chaim told him to give a shmooze against the internet. So although he never gives shmoozim about anything other than learning, he complied. They say that he didn’t want to, and he asked R’ Chaim to let him “off the hook”; but R’ Chaim did not relent, so he gave the shmooze. Because when R’ Chaim directly instructs you to do something, you listen.
I would imagine that this was the basis for R’ Dovid Feinstein’s psak as well.
” Even if there is no halachic chiyuv, it is simply a lack of respect to ignore the direct instructions of such a great man.”
And I would add: foolish, and dangerous.
l’aniyus daati, Rav Chaim feels strongly about this because we’re living in a time of shmad that requires extreme measures, per the gemara. To back this up, I found online that davka the name “shira” was the 2nd most popular baby girl name in Israel in 2012. The other names on the list were either modern Hebrew inventions or biblical names that were never (or rarely) used by Jews throughout history.
Bishlama there is no halachic issur against modern names, but as frum Jews we strive to be “muvdal” from all the negative trappings of modernity, especially its incarnation in eretz hakodesh r”l. Names is a critical aspect of any culture, and by borrowing Israeli names, it shows where our allegiance lies…
mw13
1) “Also, it should be noted that although Chaim is not a name in Nach, it is still a word used in Nach; perhaps R’ Chaim holds that that is enough.”
shira DOES appear in nach as a word. Though I’m pretty sure shneir doesnt. Nor does Zalman, Kalman, Meir, Man, I’m sure you can help think of dozens of others
2)” Chaim and Shalom, life and peace, are certainly no shtus; they are important ideals.”
As is Shira. In fact the Entire Torah is reffered to as shira “Veatah kisvu lachem es hashira hazos”
3) “The problem isn’t that the concept of song is foreign to Judaism; that is obviously not true. The problem is that naming somebody “Song” is not a Jewish concept.”
Why is it less of a Jewish concept than naming “Life” “Lion” “deer” “comforter” “Bear” “wolf” all of which are words in tanach but never used as names in tanach?
mw13 – you missed my point (i think). Rav Chaim does not say that to every Shira who sees him. he said it to a handful (or more) and you have no idea what the reason he picked those individuals was. Perhaps there was a reason that those women could not afford a less connected or less “rooted” name. If it was ONLY about the name, i’m guessing he would say it to everyone.
unless someone heard that he gave a blanket statement that all Shira’s should pick new names, that is.
ubiquitin:
1)shira DOES appear in nach as a word.
Touche.
2) Although the Torah is indeed referred to as shira, song still does not have any inherent importance. Life and peace do.
3) None of those names, as far as I know, are common in other societies. So it would be hard to say that they stem from outside influences. But for all I know, maybe R’ Chaim would say some of those names (especially the animal ones) would indeed be problematic.
SL:
Rav Chaim does not say that to every Shira who sees him
Are you sure about that?
I was once by R’ Chaim and somebody gave him petek with a bunch of names for a refuah shelaima, and one of the names (Shulamis, it so happens) was misspelled. R’ Chaim stopped by that name and exclaimed “Mah zeh? Zeh lo shaim!” So the person said oh yeah, its supposed to Shulamis.
Anyway, my point is that I do think R’ Chaim would tell anybody who he knows has the name Shira to change it. But he doesn’t see women at all, so he only has exposure to so many Shiras.
Syag: What makes you think he has not told to change to every Shira that came to him and that he knew her name was that? Or is that only an assumption on your part.
ill be happy to answer that but you already know the answer. how would anyone know that?
So you made an assumption. Yet you presented it as a fact.
SL, so it was indeed just an assumption?
you’re both nuts. although i am guessing it is either failed attempts at humor, or failed attempts at trolling.
You only need to know ONE person named Shira who went in and wasn’t told that to know that not every Shira was told that. DUH!
And I happen to know more than one.
And after this week i may know even more.
and by the way, how do you post as two different users at the same time?
Syag’s on a roll tonight. Here two commentators are nuts for making a point, while on the other thread a few minutes ago she called another poster a sick, sick man.
that is so random and out of context. I did notice you happen to get a bit mean when i call out your alter egos.
‘nuts’ in the above post means silly, ridiculous. and accusing someone of making up facts is much worse than calling someone nuts for doing so.
Alter-Ego13: I think Syag’s son spiked her Thursday Night chulent.
Mw13: I would imagine that this was the basis for R’ Dovid Feinstein’s psak as well.
Yes, that was my understanding, as I heard from the rav of the shul. I agree with your assessment of the issue.
By the way, Joseph, R’ Chaim holds Lior is not a name…
DY: That’s why I changed…
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.