Group think

Each person came down here to fulfill a role but that role is interwoven into who they are. Not disconnected to the person they are.
Just look at Moshe rabbainu, his circumstances played into his purpous, he had access to pharoa and had the authority to take the people out of Egypt. His purpous was interwoven into his personality, circumstances, and needs.
It’s all interconnected. He didn’t have to sell himself, become something else in order to play his role
Everyone has that role already imbedded within their name, their circumstances, even what they like enjoy and appreciate,
God doesn’t take the resume of your life and put you where you don’t belong. He takes your streighths qualities and circumstances and uses them for the job description that fits who you already are.
And that job description isn’t always going to look like what someone else told you it is. That job description will look like what God decided it will be. Which is through reality and who you are.

@nevuah intention matters, focus matters. First of all, if a person is focused on the big picture, which in our case is the purpose of life, he’s more likely to contribute more to that matter, actually, he’s essentially contributing to that matter. A person could give tzedaka because it’s practical, or he could give tzedaka because he’s acting in the ways of hashem, which is his goal and purpose. intention is everything. In addition, where focusing on the relationship one has with his creator, he could believe in his creator, or work for his creator. In our case where the purpose is the creator himself, working directly for him is much more meaningful, it’s making the creator the epicenter of his life, which means making the truth the epicenter of his life.
You say that you can’t have a relationship if your not asking for your needs etc. That’s not true. Me and you both ask for our personal needs, you ask because you want to be the gaining factor, i ask for my personal needs because hashem wants me to have a good relationship so i could fulfil his will, so i ask for a good relationship for his sake. Don’t you think if the when you’re praying for hashem it’s much for meaningful then praying for yourself?
The difference is knowing the truth and living for the truth.

I also think when you say intention matters? Focus matters?
So what about yourself. You don’t need anything anything at all. And are those intentions authentic or are they forced. Lol cuz if your intentions are forced their fake. And fake prayers aren’t in alignment with true needs and therefore don’t get answered or simply aren’t exactly what is neccisary truly for the moment.
And I don’t know if I agree that intention matters. Life isn’t witchcraft or something where everything is about control and “intent” those are esoteric sorcery. Which biblically disconnect a person from the Devine

@nevuah you took the intention thing way out of proportion. The basic mashel of intention is what i gave about tzedakah, intention in that case changes the essence of the action. Those intentions are not forced, I’m not sure why you think they are. it is possible for a person to think enough about reality and realize that there’s only one truth living for, and that truth is not the “self”. And yes, using your thoughts and emotions to channel you prayer to hashem is indeed more meaningful. If you think about the purpose of creation, and that a human being with free will chooses to channel his prayer to his creator, it is indeed more meaningful.

Also, the intent of something is true, your right about that.
But when you come into a scanario already deciding what intent your supposed to have, then your not being truthful. Your forcing yourself to align to a belief system
Intent and true intent is already within the framework of circumstances and also, giving tzedakah, whether you give with a specific intent or you don’t the action is still the exact same.
I think tho that intent matters to God yes. But not because your forcing yourself but because God take into account, let’s say if you did something stupid, God takes into account the heart of man, which means for the right intentions there is more mercy.
But the actions, and the consequences of actions are the same
If I drove off a cliff, and I had good intentions I still drove off a cliff and now I need to live with those choices

nevuah It’s true that forced intention is in essence not intention, but that doesn’t take away from the value of better intention.
Your moshel of driving off a cliff with good intentions, is in our case, not a good one. We believe in spirituality, and in the realm of spirituality, intention is almost everything. It’s true that the dry physical action is not effected by the intention, but that’s only relavent if the action is the entirety.
And regarding your point of being a conduit, i agree that that’s the purpose, and without that intent doesn’t carry any value, but what people are trying to say, i think, is that as you were doing so you somewhat lost focus of the goal and made yourself the center and goal.

You are the center and the goal your life is gods responsibility and his love for you means he cares about all your woes, pain and suffering and he’s looking out for you. You can be the goal and everybody can be the goal and that all at the same time can play into the bigger picture as well. That’s how amazing God is that he can do all things and everything can play into each other with all its moving parts exactly as is. Do you believe God can do that cuz he can

“Ceremonial magic, often termed high magic, constitutes a structured esoteric tradition characterized by elaborate rituals, symbolic implements, and invocations designed to access higher spiritual realms and facilitate theurgic operations, which emphasize divine union and spiritual elevation, in contrast to goetia, which involves the compulsion of lower spirits for material ends.[8] This practice relies on precise ceremonial frameworks to “”””align the practitioner’s consciousness”””””” (intention) with transcendent forces, distinguishing it from more improvisational forms of magic through its emphasis on disciplined invocation and symbolic precision.

Aka sorcery. Not everything you do with intention is good

“Ritual Precision, magical spells required exact pronunciation of prayers and precise physical actions; even a minor error could invalidate the ritual”
Hmm wonder what this sounds like. Practicing ceremonial magic alters a person’s conscience and connects them to estoric forces that separate a person from God

Again, there is intention, which comes from the heart then there is intention to gain spiritual access which is esoteric at it’s root, which has roots in sorcery. I understand your point but what I’m saying is that God cares about you. You are important to Him, so your life and your unique journey is the center, of His will, as is the will of the whole picture. They can both be true at the same time. Thats how ultimate God is that He can use little old us to serve His purposes while fulfilling our immediate needs which is litterly a huge part of our lives. Unless you believe you don’t exist at all and your needs don’t matter at all

Ashregg how do you know what each person’s individual purpous is. Are you a navi. Only the person themslevs can know that or someone with that ability to see.
Every person has a different purpous lol.
Look at Moshe then look at avraham avinu, then look at soloman, then look at rus.
How do you know what each person’s path is. You don’t.
Again intention comes from the heart and alignment you can’t force yourself to feel something you don’t feel
Saying “without that intention” your saying you need to create that intention which thus is being disingenuous people will connect when they feel called to it. Not because they have to or are supposed to or are told to. Otherwise it’s called self deception.
“The only way to serve hashem is with intention to serve him”
People serve God cuz they feel connected to God because of all the amazing things god calls them to do or does for them.
It’s not because they put themselves on the back burner and sell themselves to some higher diety. This is litterally starting to sound like self sacrifice which is called idolitry

We are all naturally connected to the Devine by existing and he’s not going to ask the same thing from each of us because each person has their own unique journey that’s why when a socioty conforms to the same ideal they are denying themselves the unique journey god chose for them.
You don’t need “intention” to serve the Devine. I sometimes think you don’t know who God is and your not connected to God at all but serving something else that’s trying to control your life force and make you lose your free will. These are not biblical morals.

To ashergg

At what point will you finally accept that it’s pointless to continue your discussion with this atheist?

I also don’t think the entirety of life is to “serve God” the entirety of life is to be _humam_ treat others respectfully and be true to yourself and your circumstances. It’s not that deep. God is there when you need him

@nevuah Nobody said one should negate themselves in the process.
“the entirety of life is to be _humam_ treat others respectfully and be true to yourself and your circumstances.” Why should someone be human? why should someone treat others as humans? They don’t have a purpose in it of itself. It’s all to do hashem’s will, which by doing that serves the purpose of creation. The creator created the world so we serve him in the world. All the “morals” and “ethics” that you contain was created by the creator for the purpose of you serving the creator. So yes, morals and ethics are real. It was created by the creator so we could use those inherit natures to serve him. But morals in it of itself is not the purpose of them.
“. But if the Torah or life was all about God why didn’t it just say “serve God” and that’s it.” I think this proves my point and disproves yours. Hashem could’ve said follow your moral senses etc, but instead, he gave us 613 commandments. He clearly gave us instructions so we don’t deviate from the truth onto our own path………..

Is God an ego maniac that the only thing he needs from you is blind worship that you forget your inherint humanity. Right….your not convincing me. Sorry
morals and ethics were designed into the fabric of reality and it’s our responsibility to ourselves and our responsibility to others to keep them. Sorry
“Morals in and of themselves are not the purpous”
Really?
So what is the purpose then. Act however you want be cruel and vicious and just continue on as if nothing happened?
I’m not sure I can even argue the point cuz you can’t even admit that being a decent person _is_ the purpous or at least somewhat inherinitly important. Honestly you were pretty much getting to me with everything else you said cuz I saw you had an ounce of wisdom but now you lost me.
The commandments work in sync with our moral senses they work together they are not separated from each other.
They are _ codafied_ for us so we don’t _forget_ them and keep in our hearts the rules of reality and we don’t fall into moral decay. Which harms _ourselves_
You are on your own path and that path by nature, conforms to the path of being a decent human and living by those ideals.

Let me ask you this. If none of the above was true why did God seperate us from the other nations and give us these responsibilities. Cuz the rest of the world fell into moral decay.
Not because God needed a people to “worship” him. And make him feel good about himself

@nevuah let me clarify. You keep getting caught up in specific lines i write and veiw then as seperate ideas instead of reading the context I laid out.
If one is an athiest, he chv”sh believes that the world evolved from a mix of energies, why are morals important? human consciousness and emotions just evolved into existance without any purpose. One could argue that even so, for the world function people must act morally, but if the world didn’t come about for a reason, for a purpose, rather if it wasn’t created, then one has no obligation. There is no system to obligate, there is nothing. This is what i meant that morals, which are logical human senses of right/wrong, good/bad are things that exist within each human but are not the purpose itself.
Hashem created the world, gave people a brain and morals. He gave that to them because he created the world, with a purpose, so the people become godly, close to hashem through exersizing their free will. Choice is not valuable if there is no logic which is moral direction. Animals could make choices, the could physically choose, but there is no significance to their choices, because they execute upon instinct.
It is only inheritley important to be a kind person if the person was created, with reason, with intent.
You take one line out of the context and blow up. You should read more thoroughly.
Now, when a person lives morally without believing, there is significance to that, because morals were created by the creator so people could sense what’s right, so it is b’cheftza a navigation that leads humans in doing the right thing, but it is not the purpose itself. The purpose is to become more godly and to be moral and grow morally to become godly, which is the ultimate purpose of creation.
And btw, you still didn’t answer why hashem gave us 613 commandments if the being a moral human is the purpose.

When God seperated us from the other nations and Gave us the Torah, it was because the world had fallen deep into moral decay and corruption. If your familiar with the time frame of when the Torah was given, so even tho I see your point and I understand what your saying, being moral and good was the purpous. And falling into moral decay was what God was preventing us from becoming. “You will be a light unto the nations” a “light” a “guide” for humanity out of darkness….or like a light in the ocean always guiding people home and giving them an example to live off of.

To ashergg

When Nevuah was writing as rescue he said that G-d only wants us to keep those laws that relate to morality. He expects us to use our free will and reject the other Mitzvahs. His “theory” is that those who keep all 613 are stupid “sheeple” his favorite term. That’s why he won’t answer your question. He ignores those questions which expose his atheism. Like when I asked him several months ago which Rabbi(s) he follows.

@nevuah Morality is indeed important, very important actually. But importance is a result of value. Importance will always be equivalent to the amount of value. If morality doesn’t have meaning, depth, intention, reason, it carries no intrinsic value. SIMPLE. The reason it’s important, is because it carries value, since it was created for a purpose.

Morality has value because it is important and has meaning and it’s our responsibility to one another but how does that contradict what I’m saying. I think we are saying the same thing no?

Qwerty613 is the infamous Sheldon Stern, Manhattan dentist, who disparages gedolim and detests chareidim. He bashes Chabad, Adirei Torah, Dirshu, the gedolim Rabbonim Malkiel Kotler, Elya Brundy, Dovid Cohen of Chevron, Moshe Hillel Hirsch amd Dov Landau of Slabodka shlita. He is also a kofer in moshiash or tchiyas ha’meisim (claiming he is unsure if it will happen). He was banned from VIN for such comments under usernames: the while tooth, kryptonite, drop dead, good gezugt, bmg guy, and others.

And i disagree. The value is only because it was created. It carries no purpose in it of itself.

I’m not sure what you mean by that. We disagreed on morals, we disagreed why the torah was given, we disagreed if all the laws of the torah carry value or if morals is the main factor, we disagreed if there is significance in following without complete understanding. There have been lot’s of disagreement. I don’t know what what “right” means in this context.

The importance of morals is not inherent, it is important because hashem created it for a reason, like everything in the world. Nothing carries inherit value. You either don;t understand this, or you forgot what we argued about.
Action is is important, and so are morals.