Hakaras HaTov

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  • #614217
    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    I’m interested in a <u>civil</u> discussion of a topic that came up in a recent thread – and I commit to doing my best to be civil as well.

    To what extent is the Tzibur at large required to show Hakaras HaTov to Israeli security forces that defend their ability to live in Eretz HaKodesh? Is there a requirement, or at least and Inyan, to daven for their safety/success?

    an Israeli Yid

    Approved with great hesitation. These types of threads usually get closed when they turn uncivil. This will be monitored carefully.

    #1042358
    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    Mod – thank you for the approval. I will do my part to try to keep it civil.

    an Israeli Yid

    #1042359
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I assume you mean those who are not “pro-Medinah”, because there wouldn’t be a question for those who are.

    I think based on the way you worded it, “the Tzibur at large”, it’s a machlokes. Many feel that a public display of hakaras hatov clouds the important hashkafic problems with the medina. Others feel that the chiyuv of hakaras hatov overrides this concern.

    I don’t think any real shittah “holds” that one is not supposed to personally feel hakaras hatov to individuals who physically protect us from harm.

    #1042360
    ivory
    Member

    I’m assuming that you mean a formal mi shebeirach which is a point of contention. Everyone should be very grateful to them but that doesn’t mean a formal prayer.

    #1042361
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    My wife’s sister lives with her family in Ramat Beis Shemesh. They are definitely chareidim. They have a neighbor who is not frum at all, whose son was going into the army during the fighting in Gaza earlier this year.

    The neighbor told my SIL how she’s nervous for her son, but also proud of what he was doing. My SIL told her children to daven for him. She got the full name of the boy, and gave it to her kids. They also took it to yeshiva, and told their Rebbe what the situation was. The Rebbe told the class that they need to appreciate the soldiers, and daven for their protection. He wrote the name of the boy on the side of the board (don’t know if it was chalk or a whiteboard), and said, “Have in mind that our learning should be a zchus to protect him! If anyone else has names of soldiers, we will add them to the list!”

    Every morning after that, the Rebbe would start class by reading the names of the soldiers, and saying out loud that their learning should be a zchus to protect them.

    My SIL told her neighbor this, and she broke down crying in appreciation of what they were doing. Showing appreciation causes a great kiddush Hashem!

    #1042362
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    I would think so, even those that are antiZion etc., it’s not worse than those that defended the Jewish communities throughout the world, throughout our long stay in golus. Every station (OK a lot) had problems and needed, in hand with rachmei HaShem and His intervention, people to intervene, different methods, means, manner of dealing with the different kinds of people (if that) and problems that came up.

    So no, I wouldn’t think they’re doing any less. Maybe (again, maybe) they’re doing not in the manner, method in line with the Torah and Torah leaders, they’re still doing a most valuable service. And they’re putting their lives on the line for it. For us!

    Toad’ah Rabba!

    Little Froggie

    #1042363
    ED IT OR
    Participant

    Every Yid who’s life is made safer or better by these soldiers must have hakoras hatov for them, though you must keep in mind this is hakoras hatov for the soldiers not to the idf and having hakoras hatov for the soldiers is not especially supporting the idf etc its just a basic human requirement yid2yid

    #1042364
    BarryLS1
    Participant

    I think most Chareidim are appreciative of the sacrifices of IDF soldiers. In Bnai Brak and elsewhere, during the summer’s Gaza war, women in those communities were baking Challah and having it delivered to the Gaza area for the soldiers. Many did other things as well. The whole Nations was involved in bringing food, clothing and other personal needs to the soldiers.

    I spend a lot of time in Chareidi neighborhood over Shabbosim. From the people I spoke with, the consensus is that the Shuls don’t make a Mishabeirach for the Chayalim for political reasons.

    The problem is that it’s the insane actions of the few that are projected on the whole since it makes good headlines, but the reality differs from that.

    #1042368
    Joseph
    Participant

    aIY, respectfully:

    1. Removed to keep the thread on track to remain civil.

    2. As surely you know we all already daven multiple times *daily* for their protection and success. As well as for the defeat of our enemies. So why would you think of adding a newfangled misheberach when they are well included in our tefilos as it is?

    #1042369
    oomis
    Participant

    I am not yet reading through the replies. My stance was, is, and always WILL be, we should always have hakoras hatov for the smallest chessed done for us, kal v’chomer the big ones. The soldiers unhesitatingly put their lives on the line every day to protect our people, frei, not frei, chareidi, Dati Leumi, chassidish, Litvish,etc who live in E”Y. THE LEAST we can do is daven for their safety in making those sacrifices for Klal Yisroel. If one cannot be makir tov to another person for that, how can he ever be makir tov to Hashem who does everything for us?

    #1042370
    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    Lior – How are you including members of the security forces in your tefilos? As you may know, there’s an inyan to be as specific as possible when Davening for someone – that’s why we use an exact name and a mother’s name when Davening for a Choleh.

    There’s also a Medrash on this where it discusses one of the battles Bnei Yisrael had in the Midbar, where one nation (I can’t recall right now which) dressed up as another when attacking Bnei Yisrael so as to make the Tefilos ineffective. They still spoke their native language, though, so B”Y realized something was up – and davened simply to overcome “this enemy”. The question that is asked then is, why not always use this formulation? The answer is that the more specific the Tefila, the better.

    As to the Nussach of the Mi Sheberach – I can understand your discomfort with using a new Tefila, and have no issue with this (though there are multiple examples of new liturgy being added to the more traditional – see Kinnos re: the Holocaust, for example). However, why not use some other, more traditional, formulation of a Tefila, while specifically mentioning Israel’s security forces?

    an Israeli Yid

    #1042371
    Joseph
    Participant

    You should also be aware that the Chareidi world says special tefilos for all our brethren in Eretz Yisroel, i.e. Tehilim, whenever there’s an increased danger in EY.

    edited – not for this thread

    #1042372
    Joseph
    Participant

    Then which thread? That respectful comment directly addresses (by way of comparison) the OP’s point in a most relevant manner.

    No it does not. It should not be a comparison. Two wrongs do not make a right.

    Sorry, OP. The excised comment addressed your point succinctly but for whatever reason was not approved. So the response to your question in the OP isn’t being permitted.

    #1042373
    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    Lior – Davening for those in Israel in general when there is a particularly difficult situation is admirable and correct, but does not reflect Hakaras HaTov, the recognition and appreciation of the good that another has done for oneself. Rather, the Tefilos that you mention have to do with “Imo Anochi b’Tzara” – I feel the fact that my breathern are in a difficult situation, and ask HKB”H to assist them.

    My original question/point therefore still stands – to what extent is the Tzibur at large reqired to show Hakaras HaTov to Israeli security forces that defend their ability to live in Eretz HaKodesh? Is there a requirement, or at least and Inyan, to daven for their safety/success? The question relates to those in the Israeli securirty forces, who put themselves in harm’s way to defend their fellow Jews’ ability to live in Eretz HaKodesh.

    an Israeli Yid

    #1042374
    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    BTW, another few examples of changes that were made to Davening:

    A specific Mi Sheberach that was added – there’s a Mi Sheberach that the Shach added after Ta”ch v’Ta”t re: those who are Makpid not to speak durring Davening. It’s not said by most Kehilos, but it does appear in the Sidur Tefilas Kol Peh.

    Dropping Selichos from most Tefilos on Yom Kippur – most now only say them at Ma’ariv and Ne’ila, and not in Shachris and Mincha.

    Saying Kabolas Shabbos – only added in the last couple of hundred years.

    Change to the Nusach of Kadish (!) by Teimanim in the time of the Rambam – they were so appreciative of what he did with the Moreh Nevuchim, that they added his name (b’chayecon,u’vyomeichon, u’vchayei d’Rav Moshe ben Maimon) to Kadish.

    So, there are examples of changes and “new” tefilos being added.

    an Israeli Yid

    #1042375
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    An Israeli Yid, I’m not sure I see your chilluk. If “imo anochi b’tzarah” is unrelated to hakaras hatov, then how does making the tefillah more specific help in that regard?

    So far, everyone here has in fact answered your original question, that everyone is obligated to feel hakaras hatov.

    #1042376
    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    DY – “Imo Anochi bTzara” has nothing to do with Hakaras HaTov – we Daven for those who are ill, after all, even though their illness has nothing to do with us. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with Davening for those who live in Eretz Yisrael in general – and in fact, there’s a whole lot right about doing so.

    My original question was specifically with respect to those who put themselves on the line to defend the Am Hashem haYoshev b’Tzion – do we have an additional obligation to have Hakaras HaTov toward them, including Davening specifically for their success and well-being. This would not be the general requirement that we are responsible for all Jews under “Kol Yisrael Avevim Zeh laZeh”, but a more specific requirement that we recognize and acknowledge the good that has specifically been done for us – all Jews who live in or visit Israel. As we have personally benefited from the sacrifices of these individuals, what are our obligations toward them – a general feeling of thanks, or something stronger, such as specifically Davening for them?

    an Israeli Yid (currently in the CHU”L, where it’s not yet Shabbos)

    #1042377
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Okay, so your chilluk isn’t so much between more specific vs. less specific tefillos, but more between a period of relative calm vs. a time of more acute danger. It did not appear this way from your third post on this thread.

    So I will again highlight a chilluk which I made: the chilluk between feeling hakaras hatov and expressing it. Normally, the feeling of hakaras hatov should be expressed, but in the specific case of the Medina and Tzahal, many feel that the inyan of expressing (as opposed to feeling) hakaras hatov, particularly in certain ways, is counterbalanced by strong hashkafic considerations.

    #1042378
    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    DY – No, I’m differentiating a “general” Tefila for a Yeshua for Am Yisrael (or those living in E”Y) on account of Imo Anochi with a specific Tefila for security forces as they go about their duties defending the lives of their fellow Jews living in (or visiting) E”Y. One poster mentioned that there is daily Davening for their success, and I questioned whether he was Davening specifically for the security forces, or a more general Tefila for all Jews in difficult situation.

    As to expressing Hakaras HaTov to Tzahal vs. Hashkafic considerations – I am specifically not asking about Davening for the State of Israel, since as you note, there are significant Hashkafic issues that many have – and this thread is not the place to opine on them. Davening for the welfare and success of the security forces, on the other hand, would seem (to me, at least) to be much less of an issue. And if someone is uncomfortable with the Nusach of the Mi Sheberach for Tzahal that is printed in D”L Sidurim, that’s fine – I’d not think most would object to some other formulation of Tefila on behalf of the security forces.

    an Israeli Yid (currently in the CHU”L, where it’s not yet Shabbos)

    #1042379
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Davening for the welfare and success of the security forces, on the other hand, would seem (to me, at least) to be much less of an issue.

    It’s different, but certainly not neutral. It is still viewed by some as hashkafically thorny – not inherently, but because of the symbolism.

    #1042380
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    BTW, I like your revised erev Shabbos signature. 🙂

    #1042381
    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    DY – It may be Hashkafically thorny, but there’s the countervailing argument that one is Halachically obligated to show Hakaras HaTov. As such, it would seem that there should be a need to come up with some way to express such gratitude in a Hashkafically acceptable manner, no?

    And thanks for the comment on my signature. There are enough people here who already consider me an Apikores – no need to have them consider me a Mechalel Shabbos too :-).

    an Israeli Yid (currently in the CHU”L, where it’s not yet Shabbos)

    #1042382
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    An Israeli Yid (currently in the CHU”L, where Shabbos is over),

    Gut voch.

    You are assuming that there is a way to express hakaras hatov without compromising on the thorny issues. In order to fulfill the halachic obligation to be dan your fellow Yidden l’kaf z’chus, you should not assume that.

    #1042383
    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    ya sorry about the closing of that thread btw

    #1042384
    anIsraeliYid
    Participant

    DY – If there’s a Halachic obligation to express Hakaras HaTov, that would seem to necessitate coming up with a way to overcome the Hashkaficly thorny issue – and there would seem to be clear ways to do so.

    And please – let’s keep this civil. There’s no need to insinuate that I’m neglecting my obligation to be Dan Le’kaf Zechus on this front – I’m asking for explanations, not accusing anyone.

    an Israeli Yid

    #1042385
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The obligation to express hakaras hatov is not necessarily greater (at least according to some) than the obligation to avoid the problems I’m referring to.

    I’m not trying to insinuate anything; I’m trying to help you understand that those who don’t express hakaras hatov in the way you think they should are not doing because they think, b’shittah, that it shouldn’t be done.

    Let’s say I would explain to you what that shittah is (as has been done before on the CR, with unpleasant results), and you wouldn’t understand or agree. What would you conclude? That I’m lying and that it’s purely from bad middos? I’m simply asking you to accept that it’s not out of lack of hakaras hatov even if you don’t understand or agree with the reasoning.

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