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  • #2135199
    ymribiat
    Participant

    A headline today from YWN reads:

    IN BROAD DAYLIGHT: Terrorist Shechting Cow For His Wedding Is Eliminated

    Islamic slaughter is dhabihah, or zabiha. שחיטה is a הלכה משה מסני. Or will YWN be presenting the tree at Rockefeller center as a חנוכה bush? Or advertising Glatt Kosher fish?

    #2135239

    You did not notice even bigger dikduk problems in the headline:
    does “his wedding” refer to the terrorist or to the cow?
    or maybe, the cow is the subject who shechts terrorists – and gets eaten “for his own wedding”:
    terrorist-shechting Cow, for his wedding, is eliminated.

    a halachic (sharia-wise) question would be – is the meat still mutar if the terrorist did not fully finish zabihing before being eliminated, or finished zabihing after being eliminating while falling on his knife.

    furthermore, presuming the cow is OK, then can the bride get married same day to the terrorist’s brother not to waste the cow before aveilus starts? If yes, they need to act quickly (both marrying and eating) before IDF arrests them as accessories to terrorism and destroys the house.

    I think this is addressed in Beitza 25 by R’ Akiva regarding eating from the live animal at the end of yontiff.

    #2135361
    akuperma
    Participant

    I strongly suspect that the editors of YWN were “trained” in the English-studies programs of our yeshivos, and had little or no formal training in journalism – and that their native languages are some combination of “Brooklynese” and “Yeshivish”. Looking at it this way, they are doing very well (and elite intellectual snobs with fancy academic degrees, such as myself, should refrain from criticizing them on such matters).

    #2135377
    ujm
    Participant

    In Eretz Yisroel, before the medina came around, yiddishe shochtim used to schecht animals for the Arabs and sell them the meat. In order for it to be “Halal” (the Muslim version of kosher) the butcher had to say the words “Allah Akubar” before each shechita, which the yiddishe shochtim did in order that it should be sellable to the Arabs.

    #2135394
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ymrbiat
    Great Question

    shechting doesn’t always mean “שחיטה” It means Slaughtering and is quite often used that way. The Gemara refers to Zecharia ben Yehoyada being “nishchat beheichal” It doesn’t mean they fulfilled the Halacha L’moshe Misinai of shechita R”L. It means he was slaughtered in the heichel. Even if he was killed by decapitation it is not uncommon to refer to, say “6 million Kedoshim who were shechted al kiddush Hashem” Although few of them were decapitated (shechita isnt decapitation of course) they were slaughtered, or shechted if you will.

    The Arab was slaughtering his animal. Thus he was shechting it.

    This answers a great question you must have on Chulin 13 a.
    The Mishna says “shechitas nachri neveila” What do you mean the shechita of a nachri is neveila? A goy can’t shecht????

    Must be of course he can shecht/slaghter however the halachaic status of his shechita is that it is neveila.

    hope this helps!

    #2135411
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    One must read the story to the understand the confusing headline. The IDF killed a terrorist who was slaughtering a cow for his own wedding in broad daylight.

    #2135477

    > were “trained” in the English-studies programs of our yeshivos

    this is not fair. Headlines in other sources are no less misleading! I suspect that there is a special program for headline writers, as this is the main source of clickbait revenue, articles themselves are not that important.

    #2135478

    > yiddishe shochtim used to schecht animals for the Arabs

    this happened in other places, where Yidden and Muslims lived together, especially if both groups were subjugated to a third party. I believe it works for Sunnis but not Shia. The joint business works this way: each shechts their own, but the Jews schecht more so that their remainders can go to Muslims.

    #2135479

    RebE > The IDF killed a terrorist who was slaughtering a cow for his own wedding in broad daylight.

    this is better, but still ambiguous: what was in board daylight – IDF, slaughter, wedding. If the wedding was planned in board daylight, then the other events might have happened at narrow moonlight. Also, not clear why the breadth of the daylight is relevant to the two slaughters animals.

    #2135499
    ymribiat
    Participant

    @ ubiquitin נשחט בהיכל is a borrowed phrase because he was killed in the בהמ”ק, where שחיטה was performed on קרבנות
    The חידוש of the משנה is even if he proficient and knowledgeable , a נכרי the slaughter of a נכרי is not a שחיטה
    You will not find שחיטה used in תנ”ך or הלכה outside of the preparation or kosher food or קרבנות.
    This reminds of YWN’s reporting last year when meat was found is Israel that hadn’t been deveined. YWN explained the issue as being that milk hadn’t been removed during koshering. Of course, the issue was חלב, non kosher animal fat, not חלב, milk.
    The fine line between pettiness and accuracy is exists between a דקדוק question and a mistranslation of basic Hebrew.

    #2135560
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    AAQ, to be clear as Rochel bitecha haktana, the IDF killed a terrorist who was slaughtering a cow in broad daylight for his own wedding.

    #2135573
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “The IDF shechted a terrorist who was in the process of neutralizing a cow preparing for a bovine chassanah on a bright sunny day”…

    It apparently was a slow news day and the regular editor had taken a day off after working nonstop for the past several weeks covering the election.

    #2135599
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “You will not find שחיטה used in תנ”ך or הלכה outside of the preparation or kosher food or קרבנות.”

    This is incorrect.
    I gave you two examples

    #2135603
    ymribiat
    Participant

    @ ubiquitin I responded to both examples that is why my previous post was more than a sentence long.

    #2135685
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    You sure did, but not convincingly

    Simple question
    Is the root שחט used for a non halachic shechita?

    Yes or no will suffice.
    I’m not asking if you are creative enough to come up with an artifical distinction , no matter how lomdish you think it is. I have no doubt you can

    #2135694
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    If you want more examples
    (Though unclear why a mishna describing a goy shechting is not a perfect example of a goy shechting that isnt korbanos nor kosher food)

    Bamidbar 14: 16 not korbanos nor kosher food
    Shoftim 12:6 not korbanos nor kosher food
    Melachim 1 18:40 not korbanos nor kosher food
    Melachim 2 10:7 not korbanos nor kosher food
    Melachim 2 10:14 not korbanos nor kosher food
    Melachim 2 25:7 not korbanos nor kosher food

    And none of these “shechitas” occur in the azarah so your borrowed term “distinction” doesn’t work either.

    Again, I don’t doubt you can come up with creative distinctions for each (this was many people so it’s different, that was before the beis hamikdash was built so it’s different)
    The simple fact is the word shechita isn’t only used for halachic shechita

    #2135705

    Had gadya?

    #2135714
    ymribiat
    Participant

    @ ubiquitin
    See the אבן עזרז on the פסוק in במדבר, and further in the אור החיים.
    As for “creative distinctions”… I apologize for ever taking you seriously.

    #2135733
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    No need to apologize
    this whole thread was silly
    I’m fine having fun with it
    If in the process we learn something all the better

    thanks for the mareh mekomos. Though I’m not sure what they add.
    I don’t deny that a person being “shechted” r “l is very unpleasant. And even if one had to die, to die by “shechita” r”l is a terrible way to go, and when the Passuk uses such a gruesome term especially
    at the hand of the Ribono shel olam; a pshat is warranted .

    nonetheless, clearly they weren’t actually shechted as required to make food kosher.

    Your complaint was “שחיטה is a הלכה משה מסנ”
    This isnt true*. The word shechita is used lots of times in Tanach not referring to halachic shechita. (some examples provided there are more)
    It is used lots of times in the Gemara not referring to halachic shechita especially when the shechita is passul for whaever reason . (example provided)
    Another example (not in the beis hamikdash) ” Kam Rabbah shactei L’reb Zeira”

    Furthermore in modern Hebrew it certainly includes any form of slaughter have a look at any Hebrew dictionary.
    So even if we couldn’t find “=non-halachic examples of “shechita” in Tanach/shas (we found plenty) ok so YWN is using it in the modern hebrew sense . whats the problem?

    * of course the exact method how to correctly shecht is haalcha l’moshe misinai, but that that is ALL the word means is not true.

    #2135765
    ymribiat
    Participant

    @ ubiquitin
    “to die by “shechita” r”l is a terrible way to go”
    Be sure to collect royalties from PETA when they quote you in their next ad. After all, everyone understands shechita as referring to kosher slaughter. They may not understand the term was used on the context of your making a fool out of yourself.

    “thanks for the mareh mekomos. Though I’m not sure what they add”
    Really slowly this time. I’ll even translate the hard words for you.
    The אבן עזרא explains that the term וישחטם is used instead of the proper term ויהרגם because it took place in the wilderness, where cattle normally graze. So the פסוק would properly be understood as “to slaughter them like cattle in the wilderness”.

    #2135854
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Also
    Just occurred to me

    you says “The אבן עזרא explains that the term וישחטם is used instead of the proper term ויהרגם because it took place in the wilderness, where cattle normally graze. So the פסוק would properly be understood as “to slaughter them like cattle in the wilderness”.”

    but shechita only means ritually slaughtered (according to you) not just random cow slaughter. After all the post in question involved the slaughter of a cow, and you insist that that is NOT shechita.
    So why is the word shechita used which ONLY means ritual slaughter in your view.
    how does he answer the question (as you understand it) ?

    #2135780
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Lol

    “After all, everyone understands shechita as referring to kosher slaughter.”

    No
    You are still making the same mistake
    shechita does not (only) mean ritual slaughter.
    Hardly anyone would even imagine such a thing. It is not hard to look up the word “shechita” in a dictionary to find the modern defitnion, or in a concordance to find it used in Tanach for non-ritual slaughter

    R’ Zeira died by shechita (before he was revived)
    so did the Bnei Ephraim (Shoftim 12:6) Sons of Achav and family of Achazyah (MElachim 2 10)

    “The אבן עזרא explains that the term וישחטם is used instead of the proper term ויהרגם because it took place in the wilderness, where cattle normally graze.”

    YES!!!
    So it is not only used for cattle. It is sometimes used for people.
    Why use such a gruesome word for people? Especially since by the meraglim there was no dying by slaughter. As chazal tell us they dug graves lay in them and many died. How on earth is that “shechita” ??? So the mefarshim explain., as you were kind enough to supply

    And besides . Ok so you don’t like this example. Thats ok I have tons more!

    So your statement “You will not find שחיטה used in תנ”ך or הלכה outside of the preparation or kosher food or קרבנות.”
    Has 3 exceptions now.
    Except in the beis hamikdash, except in the wilderness, except by a Goy who is proficient.

    what about The Bnei Efraim in Shoftim why is the word Shechita used there?

    #2135982
    ymribiat
    Participant

    The בני אפרים were “slaughtered like cattle”. If you imagine that each one had their throats slit, or that is what is meant in במדבר, that is just your imagination.
    Saying that they were “slaughtered like cattle” doesn’t mean that שחיטה is an appropriate term for human beings, any more than comparing the שבטים ,to different animals means that they actually had horns.
    And yes, מפרשים discuss why ושחט was used with רי זירא. Because it isn’t the normal use of the word. Look it up next time דף יומי comes around.

    #2135990
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ymr

    I’m so sorry I didn’t understand your last post

    you say ” If you imagine that each one had their throats slit,”

    but I’m not the one who says that. YOU said Shechita ONLY applies to “kosher food or קרבנות.”
    Though you conceded there are a few exceptions.
    So I’m asking you leshitascha, why is it used there. Accoridng to YOU it would mean each one had there throat slit making sure there was no sheiyah, chalada etc *

    I don;t have any such question. Shechita is used the same way slaughter is in English (lhavdil)
    It is used for Jewish ritual Slaughter; OR it is used for a bloody death whether human or not human.

    Thus a “Goy who shechts” is not a question at all according to me Sure a goy can shecht but his shechita is no good. This is wha t the mishan says

    “And yes, מפרשים discuss why ושחט was used with רי זירא. Because it isn’t the normal use of the word. Look it up next time דף יומי comes around.”

    I can’t wait that long. And I suspect you are making them up. sure there are meforshim who say it doesn’t mean killed literally ** in which case it is certainly a borrowed term but I’m skeptical that there are thsoe who say it does mean killed literally , but the “shechita” isnt literal *** since shecita only applies to kosher animals

    * Though they still arent kosher animals, nor in the beis hamikdash so yet another exception !

    ** showing yet AGAIN that shechita isnt always used to refer to Jewish ritual slaughter. IT can mean he caused him to be full till his throat with wine (Maharsha) or drew forth his torah learning (Ben Yehoyada)

    *** Though again whatever those exceptions are you’d have to add them to the growing list

    #2141292

    After A Yr And A Half: Gafni Is Reappointed As Finance Committee Chairman

    #2141301
    Sam Klein
    Participant

    As knowing someone else who works for the media I can personally tell you that this is how they get more viewers which is what they want.

    They come up with insane and crazy headlines to attract more readers and honestly let’s all admit the truth that it definitely does bring in more readers and does the trick. Newspapers make crazy covers to get people to buy it and get attracted to it even if the Information inside the newspaper is all garbage. It did the trick and got the customer to buy the newspaper from the store.

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