Heartbroken over Hillary?

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  • #1193278

    Person1
    Member

    LU no that’s not what he said. You’re taking him out of context.

    “so all those Hillary fans, do you not believe Hashem runs the world”

    He clearly implies that if you’re supporting Clinton you’re likely a kofer.

    #1193279

    Person1
    Member

    To clearify, I was deliberately ignoring the point flatbusher was trying to make because it was highly illogical in my opinion, but if I really have to (sigh)

    1. Just because Trump has won, say miraculousky, doesn’t mean his message or his personality are better or that he is going to make America “great again”. Hashem plan might include Trump making America much smaller actually. The analogy to this argument is that because ISIS are so succesful in the middle east there might be some truth in their agenda.

    2. It’s true if you really believe in hashem you shouldn’t be “heartbroken” over political outcome. However it’s quite childish to use this as an argument against the political side you oppose.

    #1193280

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Person1- I looked back to see if you are right and I am taking him out of context. (I do have to admit to not reading all the posts in this thread – no patience for politics). However his post reads as follows:

    “I am not alone in believing that Yad Hashem was evident, and we do not understand why, so all those Hillary fans, do you not believe Hashem runs the world and deemed the outcome of this election?”

    The continuation of his sentence is “and deemed the outcome of this election”. So that seems to be pretty clearly what he meant (even w/o reading all of the other posts).

    #1193281

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “2. It’s true if you really believe in hashem you shouldn’t be “heartbroken” over political outcome. However it’s quite childish to use this as an argument against the political side you oppose.”

    I think his point was that you shouldn’t be heartbroken.

    “1. Just because Trump has won, say miraculousky, doesn’t mean his message or his personality are better or that he is going to make America “great again”. Hashem plan might include Trump making America much smaller actually. The analogy to this argument is that because ISIS are so succesful in the middle east there might be some truth in their agenda.”

    True, but I don’t think that was his point.

    There are two aspects to “Hashem runs the world, so everything that happens is good.”

    A. One is that even “bad” is good. Like ISIS is “good” because we it is good for us to be punished and suffer. It doesn’t mean that ISIS is good but that it is good for us that ISIS is there. But of course, we still have to do whatever is in our power to try to destroy it. And we still have to be upset about the “bad” things they do, because even if they are ultimately for our “good”, they are still bad right not.

    “gam zu L’tova”, it’s L’tova, not “tova”, it is for the good, but it is not good.

    B. The other aspect is that something may seem bad, but it is really good (as in good right now, not “for the good”.)

    In the case of Trump, if someone is very anti-Trump, they may feel that only the first applies. However, it seems to me that even if you are anti-Trump, you still have to say that it’s the second type. Because the fact is, that none of us really has any idea yet what he will be like as president (and therefore it can turn out to be good, if we daven and do Mitzvos).

    Furthermore, it is important to remember that Hashem runs the world and not the president. That is why it is not a good idea to get too involved in politics (except to the extent that you are in a position to do actual hishtadlus). We have to remember to place our bitachon in Hashem, and that it is our Torah and Mitzvos that change the world, not the president.

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