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The Torah is absolute.
Sushe: True. So what? Just because a Sefer can give us a general rule does not mean that HKBH, on the infinite scale that He has to deal with the world, will never have overriding contradictory things to judge by here. Once again, see the Gemara I quoted earlier which says this exact thing. Nothing in this world is absolutel
A general rule is a good starting point. Especially one coming from seforim.
The Torah says Kibud Av V’Eim and Shluach Hakan will bring arichas yomim. Is that absolute? Can you show me someone who had kibud av v’eim or did shluach hakan that unfortunately did not have arichas yomim? If you can, does that disprove that shluach hakan brings arichas yomim (which logically makes no sense)?
Seforim mention various actions bring certain results. That’s the rule. Finding an exception to the rule does not disprove the rule. So what if it isn’t absolute? It’s still worth following.
Will someone stop eating healthy because it isn’t absolute that eating healthy will insure a person stays healthy?
Sushe: No one is saying that these things have no effect. We’re trying to point out that believing that such a thing always has the same tangible, absolute effect in this world is wrong, foolish, and probably a misunderstanding of Emunah.
How you reconcile your position, Patri, with your contradiction of three amoroim and a Rishon, leaving aside for a moment the obvious considerations of Hillel Hazoken and R’ Akiva, is beyond me. How you also ignore reality is less beyond me, because you aren’t the first and R’L will not be the last to do so. As to your solicitous concern for my future and my well being, I thank you, and suffice it to say yesh li al ma lismoch for myself in the future.
I am, though, curious that neither you nor any of those seeming to agree with you answered my question on absolute roboticism regarding mammrei gedolim that I asked Regarding Psachim 112 omud beis. Curious, but unsurprised, because I don’t really expect you to have an answer.
Yichusdik,
Stop calling the words quoted verbatim here from the Seforim Hakedoshim as being my position. It isnt. It is the Seforim Hakedoshim’s position. Not mine. I take and took no position other than to accept what the quoted Seforim state. Your disagreement is with the Seforim, not with me. Even if you falsely wrap your 20th century beliefs around general statements by Achronim.
Patri: His disagreement is with your assumption that the words of these Seforim are meant to be taken as an absolute truth in every case.
Patri, Your position is that since such words were written by a Rabbinic Authority, who could be considered a godol (though the criteria is unclear, as someone might consider Rav Kook, Rav Herzog, Rav Goren, or Rav Shteinzaltz a godol, and others may not, and the same arguments have happened before (consider if Rav Yaakov Pollack considered Rav Avrohom Mintz a godol when he put him in cherem, but now we consider both to have been gedolim). They are the absolute and only derech to follow. Since you “accept what the quoted seforim state”, you have indeed taken a position. Your passive/aggressive “its them not me” approach is disingenuous, and not particularly effective as a rhetorical tool, either.
Your refusal to answer the question about the issue in Psachim I have now brought to your attention twice tells me that you agree with absolute authority when it suits your agenda, but not when it leads to the conclusion that you may have double standards…
As for “falsely wrapping 20th century beliefs”, I am sorry that you consider honor, respect, and partnership in a marriage to be false 20th century beliefs. another 20th century belief was totalitarianism. plug that into a household and you get a reasonable facsimile of what you are advocating.
avhaben: I was simply stating my opinion. A home in which the husband controls his wife is not a home of mercy. Very far from it. It isn’t a home of right or wrong either. I have a right to that opinion.
And if they get divorced, you and Patri will state, “well, it’s the woman’s fault. She couldn’t handle married life!” And you have a right to that opinion too. Though I don’t agree with it.
sushe: “The Torah is absolute. “
What is your point? Who argued about what it says in the Torah?
computer: The seforim cited earlier in this thread are Torah.
How about you, Sushe? Ever go out alone on a Wednesday night or Motzoei Shabbos? Ever? Are you going to stop and never do it again because it says clearly in Meseches Psachim daf 112 omud Beis not to? If meseches psachim isn’t Torah She beal peh, I don’t know what is. So if you haven’t followed this restriction and/or won’t commit here and now to follow it for the rest of your life, you too, sir, are a hypocrite.
Are you feeling okay, yichusdik? What did I say that offended you or prompted that outburst? And how is it related to anything I said?
Are you feeling okay, yichusdik? What did I say that offended you or prompted that outburst? And how is it related to anything I said?
This is classic manipulation!
Sushe: they are quoting daas Torah, not the Torah itself.
c777 +1. I’ve been doing this for long enough to know all the tricks. I was doing counter-missionary work on Jewish forums back in 2000 when the internet was young, and I’ve probably tangled with hundreds of anti-Israel advocates over the years. This kind of thing doesn’t even merit another response, but I’m a sucker for calling out hypocrisy.
yichusdik: You were wise not to respond to her. The best way to deal with people who resort to manipulation and intimidation, is to keep as far away from them as possible. It is a waste of time to try to reason with them, since their feelings and needs are all that matter to them, and in this case, their need to be right and win overrides all logic.
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