I just don't get it

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  • #952945

    yytz: As far as I know, there’s no pasuk that says, “Don’t worry about saving lives, just study Torah and that will save more lives than you ever could by trying to save lives.”

    There is also no pasuk that says a person should learn medicine in case he needs to save a life. What we do have is the Yerushalmi that calls the lomdei Torah “neturei karta” over the guards. We have many gemaros that speak about how the Torah protects people.

    The truth is, I think you’re right about this. How do I know X’s Torah study is enough to help Y. Maybe we should get Z in on it too, just in case. You know what- let’s get ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUV and W in on it. Then we can be be extra sure Y will be fine.

    In fact, along the lines of give a man a fish/teach a man to fish, why don’t we get more people to learn more Torah so that they can ensure the protection of the Torah on themselves and their family a la Sota 21a, rather than reduce that protection from those that already have it.

    In contrast, we are told “not to rely on a miracle,” that saving a life is like saving a world

    I think that the definition of Teva is anything that come in the pre-programmed package. Torah is programmed to protect. That is not relying on a miracle, it is a natural affect of Torah. And yes, saving a life is like saving a world since a person is an “olam katan”. However, as the Nefesh HaChaim explains at length, Torah study sustains ALL the worlds.

    #952946

    mdd: DM, in my opinion, the Israeli Chareidim have a history of taking extreme and untenable positions. Besides, it looks bad — they want the government funding, but they don’t want to follow the rules. It is high time to stop.

    Yes, they are extreme to you because you don’t want to follow them. And exactly what rules are you referring to that the Chareidim are not following? The rule was that Chareidi yeshivos got funding and had control over their own curriculum. Now the government is changing the law and chareidim are working to prevent that. Where within that framework do you see people who don’t want to follow the rules?

    I would like to ask you though, who exactly do you accuse of historically taking extreme and untenable positions?

    #952947

    zdad: If one listens to their gedolim then they should be rewarded from Hashem. Its not the job of fellow man to reward someone for following someone elses Gedolim unless they want to

    I realized that although you didn’t counter my answer to your previous point, that this comment may have also been directed towards me based on my response to g_a_w.

    So to answer I would say that it is true that a person does not reward someone else for following their gedolim. However, giving tzedakah to a poor person is not their reward. It is your commandment.

    #952948
    Josh31
    Participant

    “Why don’t you think that a person whose mind is 95% pure Torah is better than someone whose mind is only 85% Torah and 10% Math. Would you also prefer a diamond that is only 85% pure?”

    You seem to be advocating Jewish men to learn an extremely narrow chelek (portion) of Torah so as to minimize the secular studies needed. Unfortunately, I do find some of the more zealous posters to have this very limited knowledge of Torah. Basic concepts such as proven false witnesses from the Yeshivish Gemoras are foreign to them. But they are familiar with all the aggadata about heretics. On the other hand we have ZeesKite who is not obligated in learning Torah but has a wide chelek in Torah.

    My best understanding of Derech HaMelech is that should be at least 32 Amos (about 50 feet) wide. For that wide a chelek in Torah a lot of outside knowledge is needed.

    Zeeskite is not female

    #952949
    writersoul
    Participant

    Really? ZeesKite isn’t female?

    When did this happen, during my “vacation”?

    Somehow I’m not really surprised, but still…

    dunno. perhaps.

    #952950
    Josh31
    Participant

    We need to get a psak about using opposite gender names in blogs.

    #952951

    josh31: I’m sorry but I’ve read your post 5 times and I’m having a lot of trouble following what you’re saying. I think you are saying that in order to learn Torah without any secular studies, a person would be constrained to only a few subjects, which is why so many people advocating the no-secular studies approach only seem to know aggadata.

    Then you bring in Zeeskite as an example of a girl with a wide chelek in torah. It happens to be that I had already known that he was a boy. But even if that wasn’t true, I don’t understand what point you were trying to make there. And I have no idea what you were talking about with 32 amos.

    However, at least regarding you’re first point I can comfortably disagree with your assertion that people who advocate limiting secular subjects only learn aggadata. In fact that pure bologna.

    Moving on. There may be nuances that you can catch in a given gemarah because of additional knowledge in math, just as a physicist or psychologist might. The Torah is infinite and encompasses all knowledge and that is to be expected. But that doesn’t mean the psychologist should learn physics in order to be able to glean those extra ideas. Unless that is something he is interested in pursuing. But the much greater body of Torah does not require any sort of advanced secular knowledge in order to understand it.

    #952952
    charliehall
    Participant

    I don’t see how anyone could understand masechta eruvim without a good high school math background.

    Several years ago, Prof. Yitzchak Levine, who writes a Jewish history column for the Jewish Press and is a university math professor, suggested that yeshivot reorganized their curricula so that the secular studies would be more integrated with the Torah study. For example, mathematics could be integrated with eruvim and biology with chullin. He got lots of support for the idea from frum academics like me, but no rosh yeshiva signed on.

    #952953
    yytz
    Participant

    Derech: I agree completely that we should try to get everyone to study Torah or study more Torah. At the same time, we should also try to make sure everyone works at least a little bit too. Chazal say very clearly in Avos 2:2 that Torah and work should be combined. Torah study must provide more protection when we’re doing it the way Chazal said it should be done.

    Chazal might not have said one should become a doctor to save lives. But they did say to teach one’s son a trade, and to teach one’s son to swim (this also saves lives). Teaching one’s son a trade presumes that one knows a trade. And as you know, Rambam, Ramban, Ramchal and many other gedolim who devoted their lives to Torah study also found the time to become physicians and, presumably, to save lives with their medicine expertise. We can’t say that we know better than them now, and that their medical activities were in fact a waste of time and bitul Torah.

    #952954
    About Time
    Participant

    HaARETZ July’08 in an article on

    Charedi men taking a year crash course for matriculation ,70 % scored above the national median of 400 with 15 % scoring above 700 and 45 percent above 610 (as compared national averages of 5 and 27 percent, respectively )

    Proving that formal schooling is little than glorified babysitting (and brainwashing)

    #952955
    Josh31
    Participant

    A Public domain for Shabbos purposes is at least 15 Amos wide. The “King’s Highway” should be at least twice as wide. In Washington DC Pennsylvania Avenue is our equivalent to this and is considerably wider.

    I am now learning the same Gemora that I learned a long time ago in Yeshiva. My outside knowledge and life experiences help me get a much better understanding of many concepts.

    I realize that there a some who can gain a great and deep knowledge of their learning without the input of outside knowledge / experiences. They they have a special “Help from Above” and are very few. They rest of us have to use normal means to acquire knowledge.

    #952956
    mdd
    Member

    DM,There is such a thing as Halochah which determones what’s right. If someone is given to extreme chumros (as the Israeli Chareidim derech klal are and have been) then that person is extreme.

    The rule had been even before now that they have to teach the core subjects. Chareidim just disregarded it. Now the government is getting tougher and the Chareidim kick, scream, yell and throw unseemly tantrums saying that they want the money with no string attached.

    regarding your responce to ZD. The non-Frum do have the mitsvah of tzedokah but are not obligated to support all the Chareidim forever in kollel.

    #952957

    charliehall: He got lots of support for the idea from frum academics like me, but no rosh yeshiva signed on

    And I think here is where the dichotomy between us would become apparent. I would have said, if those with da’as Torah have a problem with this idea, there must be something wrong with it that I as someone without da’as Torah don’t understand. While you seem to be implying that you feel your opinion can hold weight against Roshei Yeshivah.

    yytz: In Eretz Yisroel they call it “Torasan Umanusan”. Many mikvaos have separate prices for those whose trade is Torah. So I guess their fathers have taught them a trade. Also please see Siman 116 of Igros Moshe Y”D chelek beis here:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=919&st=&pgnum=188

    I don’t think that the professions of those you mention (maybe with the exception of the Rambam), proves that one needs to have a profession. Only that they felt that they themselves had no recourse in order to support their families. Once they were in that position they chose a profession where they can perform chesed at the same time. The question is, were the Ramban here today in our society of kollelim, would he still choose to engage in a profession? Would you want him to?

    #952958
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Ok. So then I don’t understand where the point you disagree with me is.

    As I said originally, we don’t disagree.

    #952959
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    HaARETZ July’08 in an article on

    Self selection.

    #952960
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    The rule was that Chareidi yeshivos got funding and had control over their own curriculum. Now the government is changing the law and chareidim are working to prevent that. Where within that framework do you see people who don’t want to follow the rules?

    If that was all they were doing, no one would have any issues. The problem becomes when you call anyone who wants to take away funding a “Rasha”, and declare that funding is a “right”.

    Part of the reason why I am annoyed at the Charaidim is because their PR/arguments are so incompetent. Seriously, the “Askanim” that are out there fighting are out of their league. There are much better ways to argue the point (and without fighting!) that may have actually accompished something.

    #952961
    yichusdik
    Participant

    So here’s a delicate question that it seems every poster is tiptoeing around. I don’t know if it will be posted or edited. But it is germane to the conversation and the machlokes in Israel. Mods, I am not suggesting I have an answer, but I believe it is an important question to be asked.

    At what point in our history did the guidance of our gedolim – being great people who, based on their wisdom and on the sources that are widely available to all of us in our time and place, gave tshuvos (the whole meaning of the term tshuvos, in context, strongly implies that they are answering a question that was put to them by an individual or a group, maybe people without access to the seforim and sources, or the years of yeshiva learning that our generation benefits from) turn into something completely different, i.e. a priori dictation to all of day to day decision making, ways of thinking, and even who to associate with or look at – without being asked a question about it first?

    This was a wholesale change of the role of leadership in our communities. It is a relatively new thing. So the question is, why was it done? For whom, or for what circumstances? Do those circumstances prevail today? By this I mean, that you could say 180 years ago there were many who had little or no access to learning but were still within the machane, and felt that they depended on others to do their thinking for them. Now, for the most part BECAUSE of the sacrifice and the foresight of many of our gedolim, we have successive generations who are equipped to find guidance for Jewish living in our sources, who do have access to more seforim, more tshuvos, more written knowledge than previous generations dreamed of, all at their fingertips. And those who don’t are unlikely to listen to the answers OR the dictates of the gedolim anyways.

    Was the idea of Daas Torah a Horaas Sho’oh? Did R’ Kotler z’l, R Kaminetzky z’l, R Feinstein z’l, The Lubavitcher Rebbe z’l, and who created the yeshiva and day school system post war in America and many others especially those who created the Torah education system in Israel , by doing so, educate generations who could go back to the previous system of shaylos utshuvos, rather than “a priori” diktat??

    #952964
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    At what point in our history did the guidance of our gedolim into something completely different, i.e. a priori dictation to all of day to day decision making

    Who says it did? Perhaps for the Hamon Am who are unable to work their own way towards a derech Hashem, similar (as you point out) to the Chassidishe Rebbes who were able to be Madrich the simple Am Haratzim by having them follow the Rebbe (of course, those who were able still benefited from the Rebbe, but without blind obedience).

    I believe you give too much credence to the “Internet Charaidi” (e.g. Joseph/Frumteens), without being aware that even in EY, (I would think) most Charaidim (non-Chassidim) do not blindly follow their Gedolim (they may follow due to finding out that is their Derech, or L’hepech societal pressure, etc., but not M’Kol V’Kol). A pashut example of this is Rav Chaim, about whom the Steipler was upset since he didn’t follow the Steipler’s Derech in Limud. None the less, Rav Chaim knew what was best for himself and became Rav Chaim.

    I believe if you would ask Rav Chaim or Rav Aharon Leib Shlita, or Rav Elyashiv ZTL, they would say the same thing. The “Hamon Am” may be best to just be followers, but those who are capable should follow their own derech.

    #952965

    The problem becomes when you call anyone who wants to take away funding a “Rasha”, and declare that funding is a “right”.

    Well, under the law previously, that funding was a right. I also recall hearing that some gedolim stipulated that charedi mosdos would be self-governming when they were forming the state, but I can’t recall who or for what.

    I think the problem you have with calling them “Rasha” is not that they are wrong per se,just that it is bad politic. I think this is in-line with the garbage-burning way of protest. One of my rebbeim explained to me that in E”Y the only way for Charedim to get attention to their needs is by taking extreme measures. I am uncomfortable with it being raised in America. But if that’s the position they are forced into, what can they do?

    Look, maybe you are right in the end. Maybe in the minds of the Israeli Charedim they have been demonized for so long, that they start to by into it.

    #952966
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Derech HaMelech: I told you we agree 🙂

    What they can do is peacefully protest, and then compromise. Also forcing your views on others will not help your cause.

    I mentioned this to someone last week, and I’ll repeat it here. The “Charaidim” in Bais Shemesh that attacked the girls for “Tznius”, and the Mehadrin bus “enforcers” did more harm to Torah and Yiddishkeit than Lapid ever could, and they will have to answer for it in Shomaiym.

    In the meantime, the answer is to do what Yidden have always done in Galus. Lay low, and appease. Right now (Boruch Hashem), its only about Gelt. If it continues, it could easily get worse.

    #952967

    yichusdik: At what point in our history did the guidance of our gedolim … turn into something completely different, i.e. a priori dictation to all of day to day decision making, ways of thinking, and even who to associate with or look at – without being asked a question about it first?

    Are you saying that you think it became an assumption of what gedolim would say, or that gedolim did in fact become the dictators of day to day living?

    If the former, than I would say that there will always be those that think they know what they don’t.

    If the latter, I think t has to do with accessibility. In the past, going to see a gadol was an undertaking in travelling. You asked what was vital and did the best you could. Today’s yeshivah system allows for a relatively more intimate relationship. It is logical to try to emulate those that have reached a higher state of perfection than oneself.

    That is not to say that there aren’t different drachim for different nitiyos. But most of those drachim can be found within the various gedolim that we have today. And even in the case of Rav Chaim, the story is that the Chazon Ish encouraged him in his derech halimud. I think even if one develops one’s own derech such as Rav Zilberberg and Rav Pincus, it is important to do so under the auspices of gedolim who have the ability to see the right of it.

    Call it yeridas hadoros if you will, but everyone always thinks they are doing the right thing – even when its detrimental. I have seen/heard of cases of people “following their own derech” to a bad end. Maybe in the past, without all our psychological problems, this wasn’t an issue. Or maybe, we just don’t realize how much the gedolim of yesteryear actually did emulate their rabbonim to become what they became.

    #952968
    yichusdik
    Participant

    A good argument for English education in chareidi schools would be that students might learn the difference between a right, an entitlement, and a law.

    Rights are generally enshrined in a constitution, or other governing document. In a democracy, they deal with broad fundamental underpinnings of civic engagement, discourse, access, and responsibility. RIghts are almost always inalienable, and are generally only taken away if the individual is incarcerated for a crime, or poses a security threat to the state, as deemed by its security services.

    Entitlements are usually described as services or benefits that citizens (or taxpayers, or those who have performed civic duties such as civil or army service) may be able to claim or access from government or quasi government sources, based on the approval of such entitlements by the legislative body of the state. Such entitlements depend on the continuing approval of the legislature, which has the democratic mandate to change, increase, or decrease such entitlements as it sees fit.

    Law in this context generally applies to permission or prohibition of action, as it relates to individuals, corporations, or the state. It doesn’t necessarily apply an entitlement. It may in fact be a deliberate roadblock to an entitlement. Laws may be passed by any legislature.

    Laws and entitlements depend on the approval of the legislature and or the state judiciary. If, for example, BEn Gurion made a deal with the Chazon Ish, It had the status of law or entitlement. As such it is not inalienable, and its continuing application depended on the capacity of those who wanted it to continue (ie the chareidi public/leaders) to convince the electorate and the legislature that this was in their interest to do.

    The chareidi public and leaders have been an utter and abject failure at convincing the electorate that this is in their interest. They have maintained it only by coalition leverage. Now that they have no leverage in this government, the fact that they failed to convince the electorate of its importance has made its impact.

    Instead of throwing figurative dirty diapers at Lipman and Lapid and Bennet, The Chareidi population needs to ask itself why it did not do what is necessary to convince the electorate; why it instead engaged in coalition politics for decades instead of doing the legwork of making the case for exemptions; and how to accomplish an exponentially harder goal now, when they have squandered time and goodwill for too long.

    #952969
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    That is not to say that there aren’t different drachim for different nitiyos.

    IMHO, the lack of recognition of this fact is one of the biggest problems in the greater Yeraim community, both on the “right” and on the “left”.

    I have seen/heard of cases of people “following their own derech” to a bad end.

    That is why you MUST always have a Rav for guidance.

    #952970

    yichusdik: I can’t speak for why the political leaders did what they did until now. Nor do I even know what it is they did. I think they worked to the best of their ability to accomplish what they thought they needed to accomplish. Were they lacking in ability? Maybe. Again that is not something I have even an iota of understanding about. Yet I still don’t feel antagonistic towards them in this regard (the inter-charedi politics really bothers me though). I feel that as our leaders they are only able to accomplish what we, their constituents are zocheh to. The position that we are in today is not their fault but our chovos.

    The truth is, I don’t even know why I am trying to respond to your post. I really don’t know or understand anything about politics or government. I’m not even catching your references.

    #952971

    IMHO, the lack of recognition of this fact is one of the biggest problems in the greater Yeraim community, both on the “right” and on the “left”.

    I think that you are right, although I only meant netiyos in avodah, not hashkafa.

    hat is why you MUST always have a Rav for guidance.

    But that was yichusdik’s point, wasn’t it.

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