January 4, 2012 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #846147
Johnny Walker & Jack Daniels are Kosher and has no HechsherJanuary 4, 2012 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #846148
I understand that people don’t follow the OU heksher and prefer a more heimishe one…I can respect that…
My point was other than a sticker, there is no difference, no separate runs…everything is exactly the same….
A sticker on top of another hecksher, saying this is more “valid” when there is zero difference….that I can’t follow….At least put it in a completely different package and have the heimish hecksher part of the packaging…not a silly sticker.
the more heimish sticker has done nothing to make the twizlers more stringent than the ones that have the OU…other than putting their sticker on top of the “OU”…
If the OU isn’t good for some, I don’t see how a sticker magically makes it more stringent…why not just keep it as is and put a note near the “twizler”; display saying
“We the Heimish Hecksher are satisfied with the this product certified by the OU”
When a company puts two heckshers on it, the price of the product is passed on to the consumers. Heckshers is suppose to be a service…it should be run like that…not a “for profit” business…
Two Heckshers with no difference in the manufacturing using the same original package is simply repetitive for no reason and probably keeps costs higher than they should be…
And there was no reason to shout!!!
Sorry for shouting. We always write in bold, though.
It seemed like you were accusing the hashgachos of some sort of wrongdoing in marketing their service. I apologize if I misread.January 4, 2012 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #846149
sometimes i get the feeling that people just ignore my posts…January 4, 2012 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #846150
Some of our grandparents only ate fruits and vegetables in the concentration camps to avoid treif. And here people are eating Hershy chocolate bars without a hechsher??January 4, 2012 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #846152
Prince the OP thought the girl didn’t know the candy bar didn’t have a hechsher she was trying to alert her she did nothing wrong.January 4, 2012 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #846153
soliek: I know the feeling, but doubt it in your case – you always have something interesting to add.January 4, 2012 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #846154
This is a very interesting dilemma.
I was just talking about such a thing with a well-known Rabbi who said the main reason people should follow a hechsher and not rely on ingredients is that you need a degree in chemistry to know what is kosher or not.
He stated when he was a child, though, yidden could go into a gentile bake shop and buy bread which was kosher by the fact the ingredients were very basic.
It is very possible this girl had a parent or grandparent look into the matter, and the ingredients were merely cocoa, sugar, and some other very basic ingredients which are known to be kosher. Many organic foods are very basic like that.
What adds to this confusion, for me, is how the question of Slurpees being kosher from kashered or not kashered machines, especially if a dairy drink was stored in the very same “compartment” was ruled as not being an issue due to something about the machines and dairy being so negligible that it does not threaten the kashrus status of Slurpees. To me, even though they are correct, it appears as a loosening of standards.January 4, 2012 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #846155
Real-brisker and Nechomah,
This was not my own observation, I found it by Googling “Hershey’s N’ More kosher.” If you Google “If you check out Hershey’s Kashrus page (yes, they have one)”, two matching results will come up. One of them is this thread (you don’t want that one 🙂 ).January 4, 2012 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #846156
How can one rely only on ingredients?
All of these chocolate bars are made on multi-million dollar machines that are hot (they melt the chocolate) and some of the company products may have real treif in them (gelatin) and if there is no hechsher, while this product may have no treif ingredients, it could be BOSSOR B’CHOLOV!! (Non-kosher gelatin and milk chocolate!!)
If there is a hechsher, obviously the machine is kashered in between (we hope), which takes time and money and therefore cost the kosher consumer more.January 4, 2012 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #846157
My point was other than a sticker, there is no difference, no separate runs…everything is exactly the same….
How do you know that?
Heckshers is suppose to be a service…it should be run like that…not a “for profit” business…
Why? Why is it not a perfectly legitimate way to take parnossah?January 4, 2012 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #846158
it could be BOSSOR B’CHOLOV!! (Non-kosher gelatin and milk chocolate!!)
Gelatin is inherently problematic, but if made from a b’heimah t’meiah, would not cause basar b’chalav.January 4, 2012 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #846159
Seriosuly I think in Europe and Australia they rely on lists and ingrediants and not HechsherimJanuary 4, 2012 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #846160
mikehall – I Totaly understood your first post. It was something that also bothered me. Your right; no need to get scream at.January 4, 2012 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #846161
I think we are getting carried away with if the candy is kosher or not? that is really not the point here. the fact is that some pple hold one way and some pple a different way. there are all types of jews.January 4, 2012 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #846162
What is Hersheys N’ More?January 4, 2012 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #846163
I’m speechless that people can be so blind and so naive.January 4, 2012 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #846164
These days we are so lucky to have hechsherim on all our fooods.We are so spoiled!
I was in the rest area on the Palisades a few months ago and I saw a man (with a yarmaka) pick up and bagel and butter sandwich wrapped in a plain plastic,no name or hechsher.
I mentioned that there’s no hechsher and he answered me “it’s only bread and butter”. I should have answered that the bagel could have lard in it but I didn’t know what to answer at that time.
Bottom line….ARE WE LIVING IN A JUNGLE? WHEN YOU DON’T KNOW DON’T BUY IT!January 4, 2012 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #846165
Years ago I was told by someone in kashrus that chocolate made in usa may not contain animal fat. (doesnt mean it is kosher).
but chocolate made in europe may indeed contain animal fat which may not be listed on label. dont know if this is still true but
at that time most european chocolate bars were real treif!
don’t know what that woman was buying, but she implied that as long as the ingredients are good the product is good.
this theory (despite rav ahem’s opinion) was never that dependable
and is certainly not today.January 4, 2012 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #846166
Of course you can always believe what you see on the web…since HERSHEYS N MORE is nowhere to be found Thehersheycompany website.January 4, 2012 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #846167
Here’s one Halucha no one seems to be addressing (and especially you Cinderella). The Chofetz Chaim (in the Safer chofetz chaim) goes into great details when one should or shouldnt be Dan someone Lkaf Zchus. In order for one to be allowed to be painted in bad light (even in a suggestive and/or questionable tone), he/she must be a Rasha (wicked person). In order for one to qualify as a wicked person, he/she must do a specific sin multiple times and each time be warned by Eides (witnesses). The final conclusion of labeling one as a Rasha must be done by a Beth Din. Else, the only green light for not having to be Dan Lkaf Zchus is a Kofer (a person not believing in even just one word of the Torah or Chazal). The Chofetz Chaim stresses that one MUST be Dan Lkaf Zchus even what you see is VERY convincing that he/she is guilty.
The Rambam says (????? ???? ??? ?????):
???? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????
??????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???January 4, 2012 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #846168
Mod 72 –
The 2% thing is a myth. I contacted the FDA myself and they wrote to me that everything must be included in the label.
The only questions are with certain ambiguous terms, such as spices or flavorings. They are not required to write all the specific ingredients, they may put some under such headings. These you have to be careful with.
It was not my intention to engage in a Halachic discussion on this thread. I only meant to point out that there is a valid limud zechus.
Cinderella – You absolutely did the right thing by communicating your thoughts, to her and to us. As I said, my only intention is to inform you that there is a valid limud zechus.
Sam2 – Thanks for getting that.January 4, 2012 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #846169
Seems This particular item is a cookie. Comes with and without marshmallows.January 4, 2012 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #846170
hello99MemberJanuary 4, 2012 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #846171
zahavasdad “Seriosuly I think in Europe and Australia they rely on lists and ingrediants and not Hechsherim “
I’m from Europe. I didn’t know that.January 4, 2012 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #846172
“soliek: I know the feeling, but doubt it in your case – you always have something interesting to add.”
see, thats what i thought…but my post addressed everyone in this thread, and yet no one actually bothered responding…January 4, 2012 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #846173
APY – I’m going to ask again if you found the link for Hershey’s n’SMORE’s not n’MORE. The Smores are the ones with the marshmallows. This product mentioned here that I saw in only 1 location on line might have existed a few years ago but is nowhere it Hershey’s site any more. I actually found the the Smores were also discontinued a few years ago, so I’m really puzzled how this girl found such a thing to buy (not doubting you cinderella, just that it seems like it was way past the expiration date if it did indeed go out of production)???January 4, 2012 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #846174
That’s not fair. She had no clue there was such a shita out there, and once we are talking halacha, she most definitely followed halacha by speaking up (assuming she did it in a respectful way, which I’m sure she did), as the Torah says ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???.January 4, 2012 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #846175
Thats what I was told in London, The jews there (In Golders Green) when I asked about what was Kosher, they told me they had some sort of list that they took from.
I was only in Paris for a couple of days and It seemed there were more stores there than London.January 4, 2012 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #846177
He is not ignorant at all. He is well informed of the metzius. This is a fact. You do not have to believe me and I suppose I wouldn’t believe the testimony of an anonymous blogger either. But you yourself admit to his intelligence and to your surprise that one of such intelligence would issue such psakim, so it would behoove you to at least admit the possibility that perhaps there is something you didn’t think of. (And I mean know disrespect by that. I think you are probably the biggest talmid chacham here and I am not chas veshalom coming to put you down. I just happen to respect my rav more.)
I am not going to debate this with you, because I am afraid I won’t do a good enough job, and I would not want to chas veshalom disgrace my rav due to my own shortcomings. I am confident that he can stand his ground in any area of halacha. That’s all.January 5, 2012 12:35 am at 12:35 am #846178
I thought I saw it in the Amazon marketplace.January 5, 2012 12:47 am at 12:47 am #846179
“am not going to debate this with you, because I am afraid I won’t do a good enough job, and I would not want to chas veshalom disgrace my rav due to my own shortcomings. I am confident that he can stand his ground in any area of halacha. That’s all.”
Many of us are not so confident of that. that’s all.January 5, 2012 12:59 am at 12:59 am #846180
The OU put out a video ages ago about this. You never know unless you truly know. http://www.ou.org/torah/article/the_kosher_videoJanuary 5, 2012 12:59 am at 12:59 am #846181
The OU put out a video ages ago about this. You never know unless you truly know. http://www.ou.org/torah/article/the_kosher_videoJanuary 5, 2012 1:05 am at 1:05 am #846182
Yitayningwut – I couldn’t have said it better myself 🙂January 5, 2012 1:43 am at 1:43 am #846183
yitay – although I don’t understand how your way can work, knowing what I do about production (and I would say I am sure without doubt that the less than 2% rule is true for non-allergenic items) but I want to say how impressive your speech and tone are. You’re words and ways for handling this conversation are inspiring and we can all learn from you.January 5, 2012 1:45 am at 1:45 am #846184
soleik – that’s true for 9 out of 10 of my posts (maybe 19 out of 20), you’re not used to it cuz you are usually among the more notable posters.January 5, 2012 2:29 am at 2:29 am #846185
Syag Lchochma –
Thank you. Regarding the 2% rule: According to FDA regulations all ingredients have to be reported on the label (with the exclusion of e.g. specific spices, if the label says spices). I was told this in an email by a representative of the FDA. There is a two percent rule which may have caused this rumor to start, but it isn’t a kashrus concern. It has to do with grouping ingredients together at the end.
Prince Charming – Thanks.January 5, 2012 2:31 am at 2:31 am #846186
Wolf – So your saying that hashem needs to put an OU on his apple trees?
If the standard is
“Well you know you are not allowed to eat something which is not certified kosher?” And she said that it’s not such a big deal since all the ingredients are kosher.
… then perhaps He does, if He wants me to eat their fruit. After all, I know all the ingredients in an apple and it’s not certified kosher by anyone.
The WolfJanuary 5, 2012 3:10 am at 3:10 am #846187
So Wolf, are you trying to say that you don’t either think that things necessarily need a hechsher in order to be eaten. Because you can just come out and say that. We already proved that it’s considered okay by some poskim.January 5, 2012 3:31 am at 3:31 am #846188
would anyone mind if i reposted what i said on page 1? i need responses to validate my existence…January 5, 2012 3:48 am at 3:48 am #846189
Why would it have been okay to eat tarfus in the 1950’s?
My understanding is that
a) food production was simpler then
b) it took a while after things became more problematic for people to realize there was an issue.
There’s no question that someone who eats processed foods (with few exceptions, packaged chocalate bars not being one of them) is being mezalzel in issurim (or in a small minority of cases, grossly misinformed, see hello99’s post), and that “something is up”.
BTW, I think you used the word “dearth” incorrectly.January 5, 2012 4:56 am at 4:56 am #846190
So Wolf, are you trying to say that you don’t either think that things necessarily need a hechsher in order to be eaten. Because you can just come out and say that. We already proved that it’s considered okay by some poskim.
No, that’s not what I’m saying. Not at all.
I was simply pointing out my hypocrisy.
If I truly believe (as I do) that foods *do* require hechsharim, then OP must believe (if the standard is as I quoted from the OP) that I am a hypocrite since I eat fruits and vegetables without a hechsher.
The WolfJanuary 5, 2012 5:43 am at 5:43 am #846191
DY: MY LIFE NOW HAS MEANING!!! 😀 and yeah i think i did misuse dearth.
“a) food production was simpler then”
irrelevant…things may have been just as treif
“b) it took a while after things became more problematic for people to realize there was an issue.”
absolutely. im not judging as its not my place
also like i said, and i think you were agreeing, then the moreh heter kind of made sense. now its just plain ridiculous beacause the alternative is so easy
” I am a hypocrite since I eat fruits and vegetables without a hechsher.”
no because your rabbonim have paskaned that fresh fruit is fine as long as it was (according to quite a few) washed and not cut by a knife that is questionable. now that is a majority if not unanimous psak (some debate over which fruits have to be peeled) however those rabbonim (leaving out qualifications for now) who may or may not pskan that one can self paskan on the kashrus of foods based on ingredient labels are a miut sheb’miut and we would follow rov poskim regarding this matter.January 5, 2012 6:01 am at 6:01 am #846192
“a) food production was simpler then”
irrelevant…things may have been just as treif
And may not have been… I’m going on hearsay, nothing of substance.
Zahavasdad posted earlier that many brands of whiskey are widely considered kosher even without hechsher. That’s because their production is simpler than that of other products, and known to be innocuous. I’ve heard that many more foods were in that category many years ago. I’ve also heard that people were simply ignorant, and assumed things were kosher even though they weren’t necessarily. I suspect that there’s some truth to both of those ideas.
Whether their hora’as heter was somewhat legitimate depends on whether things were really kosher meikar hadin. I don’t have first hand knowledge.January 5, 2012 6:06 am at 6:06 am #846193
But were people really ignorant back then or did they just not have the resources to ensure proper hechsheirus of their food? Or were they more lenient with their kashrus standards?January 5, 2012 6:12 am at 6:12 am #846194
zahavasdad: in London, you mean the London Beis Din List – a list of foods checked by them. I’m not sure what point you want to make, but that proves the point of those who say you *cannot* judge a food by its ingredients listing.
From their website:
‘”The Really Jewish Food Guide” listing over 6,500 products whose status has been approved by the Beth Din on the basis of research by our Food Technologists into ingredients, processing aids, and any shared use of equipment… ‘January 5, 2012 6:15 am at 6:15 am #846195
But were people really ignorant back then
So I’m told.
or did they just not have the resources to ensure proper hechsheirus of their food?
Also true, but big yarei shamayim limited what they allowed themselves to eat.
Or were they more lenient with their kashrus standards?
That’s another way of phrasing it.
When did this happen? There are no current references to Hershey’s ‘N More cookie bars that I can find, I’ve only found from 6-7 years ago, so I suspect it’s been discontinued.January 5, 2012 6:24 am at 6:24 am #846196
It just happened yesterday. I went back today to check because I thought maybe I was wrong but it was the chocolate and caramel bar. It comes in regular and sugar-free. I thought it was called Hersheys N’ More. I guess not. It’s not kosher. The guy at the cash register thought I was insane going through all the chocolates…January 5, 2012 6:25 am at 6:25 am #846197
I’d think that the cases where one *can* judge a food by its ingredients would be limited to very specific products (basic foods with few sub-ingredients or processing?).
To do that, one would need to be enough of a kashrus expert
to make it non-viable for the layman.January 5, 2012 7:30 am at 7:30 am #846198
DaasYochid: your and everyone else’s raaya rom whisket and beer is invalid because those were categorically paskened on by eminent rabbonim. its not that people stam paskened themselves that these items are categorically kosher…its that they were given a PSAK that these items are categorically kosher
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