Infertility treatments – Tzedaka??

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  • #883835

    golfer
    Participant

    I’m surprised at all the people suggesting adoption as a solution. Have any of those posters actually ever looked into it? Adopting a child born to a non-Jewish mother can be quite complicated ; I’m not interested in getting into a discussion on the topic as I am not an expert in Halacha- ask your LOR if you want more info. Adopting a Jewish child is very difficult and can take a very long, indefinite period of time. Those of us with limited sources of income (and I suppose that would include most of us?) have to carefully budget our expenses, including our Tzedaka expenses. If anyone is uncertain about how to allocate their funds, I’m sure they can find a Rav willing to help them out. Helping infertile couples with the vast expenses involved in conceiving a child is certainly an act of chessed; whether it takes precedence over other charitable enterprises, or not, is probably better discussed with your Rav than on a blog.

    #883836

    Mammele
    Participant

    I thought I’d add one point nobody brought up. Helping a couple conceive usually also falls into the category of “v’havuos shulem… Uvein ish l’ishto” (bringing peace between husband and wife) for which one reaps reward in both worlds. First by taking some financial pressure off the couple, and also very likely by mitigating the guilt (however misappropriated) of the partner with the infertility problem (although sometimes both have issues, or one compounds the other’s problem). In the worst case scenario infertility may even lead to divorce.

    #883837

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Getting a Jewish child is next to impossible. Getting a White american born child is also next to impossible.

    Thats why people were adopting from Russia and Romania, but it seems those avenues have been cut off in those counntries as well.

    I know some still adopt from China, but be sure you want a chinese baby

    #883838

    oomis
    Participant

    Of course couples who can fulfill the mitzva should, I am just wondering to what extent it is necessary to fulfill the actual mitzva of pru u’rvu, or to help others fulfill it with public funds, when it is not in a couples natural capability. “

    When you help someone fulfill a mitzvah, do you not reap the reward of knowing that your efforts resulted in the greater good? This would literally be a case of mitzvah goreres mitzvah, (loosely: one good turn deserves another). By giving tzedaka, your mitzvah could result in someone else’s mitzvha of pru urvu, and you have a chelek in it. Just as contributing to a Yeshivah gives you a chelek in the learning done by the talmidim. Only this is even more meaningful, because you are potentially helping to bring a new life into the world, which will hopefully be steeped in Torah.

    #883839

    pcoz
    Member

    I find this thread very weird

    ??? ??? ?????, ??? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????. ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???, ????? ??? ??? ?????.

    Why are we raising as a discussion helping people in this situation?

    #883840

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “The term you use, “emotionally charged situation”,”

    Is actually a term someone else used, which is why I commented on it, and also put it in parenthesis.

    #883841

    thehock
    Member

    The OP raises a valid question (unfortunately, it could have been phrased with more sensitivity). It is a halachic question I have asked my Rov in general terms about maaser allocation (not specifically about infertility). I was told that rov maaser should be given to aniyim. Since I cannot be sure that the dollars I give to certain worthy organizations are going to aniyim, I allocate these funds (rov maaser) to volunteer-only organizations that feed the hungry or otherwise help the impoverished and hope for the best.

    I hope this is helpful to the OP and as many have said, this is a question for *your* LOR.

    #883842

    Health
    Participant

    DY -“Actually, aside from pikuach nefesh, supporting Torah is a priority.”

    A common misconception.

    First of all -the Mechaber says to give to a Shul is more important than Tzedaka and giving money to a child to learn Torah or to a sick poor person is even more important.

    So it’s not supporting all Torah learning, just kids!

    Second of all, the Gr’a amongst others don’t seem to hold the Halacha is like this Mechaber.

    I heard on a tape from R. Krohn that people give money to Yeshivas because they get Kovod and ignore their poor relatives who are in need.

    The S’A says needy relatives come first.

    #883843

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Health: yes, relatives come first – in most cases. I happen to have a relative who doesn’t have money. Why? He sits and learns in kollel. His wife doesn’t have a real job (she does things here and there for people to make a few shekels). They’ve contacted us asking for help. We’ve helped them, but also asked if it’s time for him to go out and work (he’s been in kollel for close to 20 years now). He refuses to. His wife has been offered teaching jobs, but she doesn’t want to take them – she feels that she should be a principal, not just a teacher, and accepting a teaching job is beneath her.

    Why should I help them any more? They’re not doing anything to help themselves.

    #883844

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    First of all -the Mechaber says to give to a Shul is more important than Tzedaka and giving money to a child to learn Torah or to a sick poor person is even more important.

    I don’t understand how you counter the point that support for Torah comes before poor people with the fact that giving to a shul takes precedence over giving to poor people.

    As to which takes precedence, adult Torah scholars or children’s Torah, it’s a machlokes, and it depends on multiple factors. See this article, footnote 6, for some sources.

    Please inform if you know of anyone who argues on the general precedence of Torah support over most other forms of tzeddakah (more authoritative than some comment, probably taken out of context, from Rabbi Krohn).

    #883845

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    APY,

    “The term you use, “emotionally charged situation”,”

    Is actually a term someone else used, which is why I commented on it, and also put it in parenthesis.

    I’m not sure what your point is.

    Are you saying that the emotions of the recipient are not a factor in tzeddakah allocation?

    #883846

    yehudayona
    Participant

    It’s simply not true that it’s virtually impossible to adopt a Jewish child. There are many Jewish children who are available for adoption. They may be older, they may have health issues, they may be mixed race, but they do have yiddishe neshamas. If someone is thinking, “I couldn’t deal with a child with [fill in the blank],” what would you do if you sired/gave birth to such a child?

    The Jewish Children’s Adoption Network is an organization that matches Jewish children to Jewish families.

    #883847

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Are you saying that the emotions of the recipient are not a factor in tzeddakah allocation?”

    Prioritization.

    #883848

    Health
    Participant

    Feif Un -“Health: yes, relatives come first – in most cases.

    Why should I help them any more? They’re not doing anything to help themselves.”

    That’s the Halacha. If you have a Psak from a LOR saying due to their laziness they are excluded from this – that’s fine. I wouldn’t on my own not give them money without first asking a Rabbi.

    #883849

    Health
    Participant

    DaasYochid -“I don’t understand how you counter the point that support for Torah comes before poor people with the fact that giving to a shul takes precedence over giving to poor people.”

    I was just quoting the Mechaber in a transliteration.

    “As to which takes precedence, adult Torah scholars or children’s Torah, it’s a machlokes, and it depends on multiple factors. See this article, footnote 6, for some sources.”

    The only one that the Mechaber mentions is children learning. If you have a source stating that adult learning is more important than Tzedaka – please cite the source.

    “Please inform if you know of anyone who argues on the general precedence of Torah support over most other forms of tzeddakah.”

    I did. You obviously missed that in my post. I’ll repeat. The Gr’a and other Achronim in the Nosei Kelim on the S’A – seem to hold that Torah learning does Not take precedence over Tzedaka.

    #883850

    I am shocked by this thread.

    And I’m also offended.

    And I cant understand why this thread is still open. How many sufferring couples hearts are you going to stick daggers through?

    #883851

    The Frumguy
    Participant

    There are no daggers involoved at all. I’m just wondering (once again) if helping couples have babies merits our giving Tzedaka monies. It’s not like we’re returning a “lost object” under the category of “dei machsoro.” If a married couple wishes to have children under grueling, expensive circumstances do we have to “give in”?

    #883852

    “whatrutalkingabt” I agree with you completely and I think that many people in our community have children so young and so easily that they don’t fully understand how precious it is to have a child.

    “The Frumguy” A child isn’t an object that one acquires or desires, like a new car. At least they shouldn’t be. It’s hard for someone who can easily pop out children to understand the pain of being childless. Having a child gives meaning to everything you do. You earn money and want to succeed so that you can take care of your children and be a good example. You want to see the best of you in your children and see them become a better version of yourself with your guidance. You want to pay tribute to all of your ancestors who for thousands of years had children and keep that line going, but you have failed them all. You disappoint your grandparents, parents, siblings, nieces and nephews. You try to find a spouse endlessly or try to keep a spouse without the shared purpose of raising a family. You try to keep the mitzvos and be part of Judaism as an individual or as a couple, but Judaism is all about family and passing on tradition, so many mitzvos can ring hollow. Imagine sitting at a seder without anyone to tell the story to or to say ma nishtana? In other words, without children you go through life like a shadow, always feeling like you’re missing your purpose. You go through life being judged by others and judging yourself that your lack of children is a result of bad choices or punishment. Imagine how that can destroy a person. We give tzedaka to people who live on the fringe of society for a variety of reasons – health issues, poverty etc. infertility definitely falls into that category.

    #883853

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The only one that the Mechaber mentions is children learning. If you have a source stating that adult learning is more important than Tzedaka – please cite the source.

    Ahavas Chessed, chapter 19.

    Relatives do come first, though.

    Which Gr’a? It would indeed be curious if the Chofetz Chaim paskened against the G’ra and Nosei Keilim.

    #883854

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48041&st=&pgnum=198

    ??? ?????? ???? ?????, ?????? ?????? ?????, ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?????, ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ????. ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???(????? ??? ???): ???? ????? – ??? ????? ??????: ??? ????? ??? ?????, ??? ?????? ???? [?????, ????? ????? ????? ?????], ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????.

    #883855

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m just wondering (once again) if helping couples have babies merits our giving Tzedaka monies.

    And I’m telling you that it is a valid tzeddakah, and that to suggest otherwise, aside from being wrong l’halachah, is insensitive to those suffering through infertility.

    #883856

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Health,

    To support Torah, you’re allowed to give more than a chomesh, which isn’t always the case for ordinary tzeddakah.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48041&st=&pgnum=208

    #883857

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Let’s assume for a moment that it is not a form of tzedaka in the classical understanding of the word. It is certainly a form of gemilas chassadim. Unsure whether to use your money to help family A purchase their needs for shabbos, or help family B pay for fertility treatments, ask your Rav, that’s why he is there. He isn’t there just to entertain you with a drasha on shabbos morning.

    #883858

    Health
    Participant

    DaasYochid -“The only one that the Mechaber mentions is children learning. If you have a source stating that adult learning is more important than Tzedaka – please cite the source.

    Ahavas Chessed, chapter 19.”

    Yes. I remember this C.C. I think you are somewhat confused.

    The Mechaber in Hilchos Tzedaka was talking about preferences that come before Tzedaka and aren’t in the Geder of Tzedaka. Like eg. kids learning. These kids could be rich, but acc. to the Mechaber giving money to support their learning would come before Tzedaka. The Gr’a Offen Ort and others seem to disagree.

    The way I understand the C.C. is that the preference of Torah learners that is given over others is only in a case of poor people. It’s not in general to give Torah learners over the Mitzva of Tzedaka.

    I hope this clears things up for you.

    Btw, I don’t get your point about Chomesh.

    #883859

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The Gr’a Offen Ort … is disputing the Mechaber about the priority of beis haknesses.

    Poor Torah learners, children or adults, take precedence over anyone but relatives (poor relatives who are Torah learners would be the absolute priority*, aside from pikuach nefesh).

    Children take precedence over adults because their Torah is b’li chet. Otherwise, there’s no difference relative to other tzeddakah needs.

    Whether poor relatives take precedence over Torah learners seems to be a machlokes (check out the sources in the article which I linked to earlier) although the C.C. seems to give priority to krovim.

    My point about chomesh was to demonstrate the primacy of supporting Torah learners. Although there is a chiyuv to give “tzeddakah” (to poor people), the bulk of one’s donations should be to support Torah.

    * Exactly opposite Feif Un’s misinformed position.

    #883860

    Health
    Participant

    DaasYochid -“The Gr’a Offen Ort … is disputing the Mechaber about the priority of beis haknesses.”

    Wrong. He disputes the whole Seif, including supporting kids’ learning. Look again. He says that the Deyuk that these things come before Tzedaka is “Aino Muchrach”.

    “Poor Torah learners, children or adults, take precedence over anyone but relatives (poor relatives who are Torah learners would be the absolute priority*, aside from pikuach nefesh).”

    As long as they are from Aneiay Ircha.

    “Whether poor relatives take precedence over Torah learners seems to be a machlokes (check out the sources in the article which I linked to earlier) although the C.C. seems to give priority to krovim.”

    You have not provided a source. Look up. The Mods don’t put up links. If you want to cite a source that argues -copy & paste.

    “My point about chomesh was to demonstrate the primacy of supporting Torah learners. Although there is a chiyuv to give “tzeddakah” (to poor people), the bulk of one’s donations should be to support Torah.”

    Well that would depend on many factors. – How many poor relatives you have. Whether your town has poor Talmedi Chachomim or just poor Am Haaratzim. The Piskay Teshuva 251:3 says -poor people from your town even if they are Ami Haaratzim, come before poor people from a different town, even if those are Talmedi Chachamim!

    #883861

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You have not provided a source.

    I guess you missed it. It was embedded in my post, in the words this article, footnote 6. I’ll post it again. Moderator, can you kindly allow it again? Thanks.

    http://www.dinonline.org/2010/08/12/laws-of-tzedakah-part-ii-who-to-give-first/

    #883862

    pcoz
    Member

    I think according to the hagahos on my Orchos Chaim le’Harosh beyond a very basic chiyuv each year which does not amount to much where you give your tzedakah is up to you.

    #883863

    Health
    Participant

    DaasYochid -“You have not provided a source.

    I guess you missed it. It was embedded in my post, in the words this article, footnote 6. I’ll post it again. Moderator, can you kindly allow it again? Thanks.”

    The mod let the link the second time through. It’s not in your first post -that’s why “I” Missed it.

    The guy does a pretty good job, but I understand your mistake now. He didn’t mention the Gr’a argues on the whole Seif. I actually looked up all the Shittos inside -I didn’t use any quick synopsis by s/o else. Now you know why to look up things yourself.

    #883864

    Health
    Participant

    pcoz -“I think according to the hagahos on my Orchos Chaim le’Harosh beyond a very basic chiyuv each year which does not amount to much where you give your tzedakah is up to you.”

    Why do you say it doesn’t amount to much? It depends on your income. If you make 100 grand – 10 grand is Maaser.

    Just a general question – Do people (or do you) pay their tuition with their Maaser money?

    #883865

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Pcoz,

    What edition do you have, and who wrote the hagaos?

    #883866

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The mod let the link the second time through. It’s not in your first post -that’s why “I” Missed it.

    Go back to that post:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/infertility-treatments-tzedaka/page/2,

    and click on the words this article, footnote 6..

    Sorry, I guess I should have put arrows to make it more clear.

    but I understand your mistake now

    You obviously don’t, if you still think it’s a mistake. 🙂

    He didn’t mention the Gr’a argues on the whole Seif.

    Good for him, because the Gr”a does not argue on the priority of Torah, only beis haknesses. I did see it myself, I’m not relying on that article, but he has some nice mareh m’komos, so I linked it.

    According to you, Health, the author didn’t merely commit an error of omission, he switched the whole order around! You are entitled to argue if you want (in the realm of discussion; for halacha l’maaseh ask your rov), but I don’t understand how you can say he did a good job if you think he reversed the order of priority.

    #883867

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I suppose the only practical difference if it is or is not considered “tzedaka” is if one may use maaser money. It does not detract from the fact that supporting this, or any other worthy cause is still part of the broader category of chessed, which all are obligated to do to some extent.

    #883868

    Health
    Participant

    DY -“and click on the words this article, footnote 6..

    Sorry, I guess I should have put arrows to make it more clear.”

    I did it and it worked. I guess I’m very ignorant in HTML. I never thought you could click on words that aren’t highlighted. I guess we learn new things every day.

    “Good for him, because the Gr”a does not argue on the priority of Torah, only beis haknesses. I did see it myself, I’m not relying on that article, but he has some nice mareh m’komos, so I linked it.

    According to you, Health, the author didn’t merely commit an error of omission, he switched the whole order around! You are entitled to argue if you want (in the realm of discussion; for halacha l’maaseh ask your rov), but I don’t understand how you can say he did a good job if you think he reversed the order of priority.”

    Well I thought he (the author) was going acc. to the Mechaber.

    I don’t see how you can learn differently in the Gr’a than I posted. The Yerushalmi doesn’t say outright a Halacha that those 3 things come before Tzedaka. It’s a Diyuk from the Yerushalmi & the Gr’a says it’s No Diyuk. So how could anyone derive it’s only about a Shul acc. to the Gr’a? It’s possible the mistake is that you & him are focusing on the Gr’a’s word of “Kol Shkain with our Geersa” and ignoring “Aino Muchrach”.

    #883869

    pcoz
    Member

    I don’t think according to the Rosh there is a chiyuv of maaser kesafim. I think the link to dinonline is incorrect becuase the sort of precedences listed in the link relate more to the type of town centric tzedaka that you find in the first perek of bava basra, not to an individual’s obligations. I can’t remember off hand who wrote the hagahos but it has a haskomoh from Rb Avrohom Gurwicz shlit”a.

    #883870

    zichmich
    Member

    keep trying

    #883871

    Cutie
    Member

    That the question could even be seriously asked, is indicative of a real problem in the heart of the one asking. Obviously you have no clue as to the pain childless couples go thru, of how painful it is to be in theresence of other couples who naturally have one child after the next, worse sole topic of conversation is their kids, their kids’ schools,their kids’ teachers and Rebbeim, their kids’ issues, etc. the pain is unbearable. I too am seeking to adopt a Jewish child. Anyone with any leads, please let me know. Tizku l’Mitzvos.

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