Inviting Non-Jewish Co-Workers To A Simcha?

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  • #1143947

    chesedname
    Participant

    wolf

    a sandwich doesn’t make it mutar, ask a real rov.

    and for g-ds sake stop using your corrupt logic to pasken shalos!!

    ppl that are reading this posts don’t realize how little you know, which is OK if you would understand that, and stop talking as if you know what you’re talking about.

    everywhere from gemara to ALL poskim say a goy on yom tov is assur! get it through your head, what you’re doing is WRONG, assur, and someone that does something wrong on purpose is called a rasha.

    i know you’ll say OK I’m rasha I’ve been called worse, but that attitude deems you an apikoros, and you’re opinions don’t belong on a jewish/hemish website.

    there is nothing wrong with a question, or not knowing a halacha, but when you’re arguing with basic undisputed halacha, it’s a real problem.

    #1143948

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Wolf, you spoke directly to Moshe Rabbenu???

    [Am I the only one who heard that in school as a kid? Not from a teacher, but it went around the students]

    #1143949

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    inviting a goy on yom tov is assur!! period.

    Is it?

    You’re SURE that if I invite a non-Jew to a Yom Tov meal and DON’T COOK ANYTHING (i.e. serve deli sandwiches) that it’s assur?

    It’s clearly not. The issur is in cooking, not inviting. All your yelling and protesting to the contrary doesn’t change that.

    As for the actual cooking, I clearly recommend you ask your LOR. You may well get a different answer than I got.

    The Wolf

    #1143950

    arc
    Participant

    really, assur period. I had a goy in the process of becoming a ger at a yom tov meal I checkd with a posek it was muttar so chesedinnameonly you are wrong.

    #1143951

    chesedname…with all do respect, you make me laugh.

    #1143952

    it may not be technically assur but it is certainly improper if it is avoidable, thats the main reason for the assur bishul akum, and many other similar issurim, to prevent this type of improper mingling between the Holy People and the nations.

    but its not “assur,period”

    #1143953

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    a sandwich doesn’t make it mutar, ask a real rov.

    I’ll tell you what… why don’t you show me a source that says that having a non-Jew over for Yom Tov where there is no cooking is assur?

    Do you even know the reason why it’s a problem on Yom Tov and not Shabbos? The reason is SOLELY because of the cooking!

    And, for the third time, I’m not advising anyone to follow what I do. I clearly told everyone and anyone to contact their own LOR.

    The Wolf

    #1143954

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Mod80, that’s why its important to CYLOR.

    In the case of relatives, you can’t usually invite the child without the parents, especially when they are young. This is very true if the parents know WHY you are only inviting the child and WILL take offense.

    Its not a simple situation. But I do find the “assur gamur” statements are ridiculous and attempting to cast aspersions on things that fall within the bounds of halacha.

    #1143956

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    i know you’ll say OK I’m rasha I’ve been called worse, but that attitude deems you an apikoros

    Doesn’t matter. I’ve known for a long time that many people deem me to be an apikores for lots of reason unrelated to the ones discussed herein.

    So one more issue doesn’t seem to be a problem. You want to call me an apikorus for my self-image issues, go ahead. I don’t care.

    The Wolf

    EDITED

    #1143957

    youre right sj but i *think* sometimes the statements are worded so strongly (and not correctly) comes from the frustration of seeing people who think anything that does not have a specific issur written someplace is perfectly fine.

    which is very far from the truth of the matter as well. not for Ovdei Hashem

    #1143959

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Mod80, I’m not sure that’s true. I think the “assur” cries are becoming more and more of a problem in the Jewish community in general. People aren’t properly educated and if they hear something that is different from what they specifically know, they don’t question “could it be ok” but rather say “assur, treif” etc. Each Rav paskens differently, so it may be assur for you, but it doesn’t mean its always assur.

    And the truth is, if something isn’t assur, it usually is muttar. The question is if its appropriate…and that’s more of a case by case basis.

    #1143960

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    chesedname, out of curiosity, have you discussed this with your “real” Rabbi?

    #1143961

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    You know something, chesed… I don’t care to argue this with you anymore. Since you’ve already decided that because I don’t always view myself favorably that I’m an apikorus, then you probably shouldn’t argue with me anyway. I might further corrupt your soul or something like that.

    I think we’ve hijacked this thread long enough. How about we return it back to the topic at hand — inviting non-Jews to affairs (that don’t happen on Yom Tov)?

    The Wolf

    #1143962

    yes we disagree on this sj

    im more concerned with overmutaring

    and you are more concerned with overassuring

    #1143963

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    overmutaring

    Heh. I read this as “overmaturing” on the first read. 🙂

    The Wolf

    #1143964

    arc
    Participant

    calling people rishoim and apikorsim because of overassuring isnt ok.

    #1143965

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Mod80, I’m not sure that’s true. I think the “assur” cries are becoming more and more of a problem in the Jewish community in general. People aren’t properly educated and if they hear something that is different from what they specifically know, they don’t question “could it be ok” but rather say “assur, treif” etc. Each Rav paskens differently, so it may be assur for you, but it doesn’t mean its always assur.

    To SJS and Mod80:

    Rav Gifter always had a shita that one should look up the question, chances are someone has asked it and we can at least base ourselves off that.

    It is a lost art, to find out what the Halacha is Vs. assuming Assur or Muttar.

    Look it up at the source, and learn the Halacha.

    Check with your Rov that you are correct. I have been told by my rov on a number of times that I was correct, but still should not do it for other, not necessarily pure halachic reasons (and yes, I listened).

    Don’t just follow the “Kol Korei” or the latest fad (either for Issur or Heter), be knowledgeable.

    That is what worries me. Not the Assuring (which is easy) or Mattering (which is more difficult), but the Am Haratzus and the inability to learn and think independently.

    #1143966

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Mod80, different sides of the spectrum, different problems. In the Yeshiva World, the overassuring is more of a problem.

    If this were modernorthodoxworld.com, then I would agree with you.

    Just remember, kol hamosif…

    #1143967

    tb
    Participant

    I think the question here is – Did Chazal say that it is ossur to cook for a goy on YT (which the wolf maintains) or did they say It is ossur to invite a goy for yom tov as you may come to cook for him (as chesed is stating but not really explaining properly). If it is the former than serving deli sandwiches will make inviting a goy muttar. If it is the latter then it won’t help because once a gezeira is made you can’t necessarily say – well that won’t be the outcome in this case so it’s OK.

    However as I am not a Rabbi or poseik I won’t comment. Although even in the later case there may be a way of getting around it if necessary. So back to the LOR

    #1143968

    dunno
    Member

    It seems like many people in the CR are trying to shove their chumros down everyone’s throat. I know what’s coming next. “It’s not a chumrah, it’s blatant halacha.” If that’s the case, provide a source and discuss it. But to call Wolf an apikores and rasha over something that he discussed with his LOR is just stupid.

    #1143969

    so right
    Member

    It seems like many people in the CR are trying to shove their kulos down everyone’s throat. I know what’s coming next. “It’s not a kula, it’s blatant halacha.” If that’s the case, provide a source and discuss it. But to say its okay because you do it is just stupid.

    Another interesting observation is that some people say don’t pasken when someone mentions a halacha that something is assur, yet the same person has no problem promoting something that is assur, essentially paskening that they can override the issur.

    #1143970

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    But to call Wolf an apikores and rasha over something that he discussed with his LOR is just stupid.

    To be fair, that’s NOT what he said.

    He said:

    i know you’ll say OK I’m rasha I’ve been called worse, but that attitude deems you an apikoros,

    To me, that reads that I am an apikorus not because I believe you can serve a sandwich to a non-Jew on Yom Tov, but because I don’t view myself positively.

    The Wolf

    #1143971

    arc
    Participant

    I was told that its the cooking that is assur. I would think that a seudah on Y”T wih uncooked food might be M”A but how would people know they are goyim.

    #1143972

    chesedname
    Participant

    tb

    great question

    the issur is to cook, so the rabbonim, assured inviting so we don’t come to cook!

    like all “fences” we don’t have the power to say i’ll be careful with the darasa, so i won’t follow the rabbanim.

    that’s similar to the reform, who only keeps the written torah.

    #1143973

    chesedname
    Participant

    mikehall12382 and arc

    it’s beneath me to respond to personal attacks.

    I’m not a rasha and to call me names or insult me, puts you in the category of one.

    #1143974

    dunno
    Member

    Wolf:

    You’re right but the following comments prove my point…

    “and for g-ds sake stop using your corrupt logic to pasken shalos!!”

    “get it through your head, what you’re doing is WRONG, assur, and someone that does something wrong on purpose is called a rasha.”

    #1143975

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “as far as inviting a goy for yom tov meal, wolf is that heter your own, you didn’t see it in a sefer, or did you ask someone?”

    I asked a Rav/Posek if it was permissible to invite a goyish in-law into a sukkah for a meal with the family. The answer was that it was a Kiddush Hashem. I don’t know how he would have paskined concerning any stam goy.

    #1143976

    tb
    Participant

    chesed – you would probably have been better off explaining that many posts ago instead of just saying ossur without the explination.

    #1143977

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    CN:

    Even if you are correct (which you are, it is an outright MB 512:3), you go to far in your Kannoiness.

    Besides, Wolf did say he discussed it with his Rov. Perhaps having Yiddishe Nishamos at a Yom Tov meal overrides the Gezairah?

    I surely would think so, but I am not a Rov (and neither are you, obviously).

    #1143978

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    cherrybim:

    You think we can’t tell you are Frum just because you wear a baseball cap?

    #1143979

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    and for g-ds sake stop using your corrupt logic to pasken shalos

    Oh, and chesed… I know you’re not going to listen to me because I’m an apikorus and all that, but it’s still proper and respectful to use a capital G in “G-d.”

    The Wolf

    #1143980

    arc
    Participant

    chesedname look back you used those names on posters I pointed out its wrong in turn you call me one or both.

    its beneath you to respond but not to call people names…ok

    #1143981

    chesedname
    Participant

    gemara Baitzah 20:b you can’t cook for a goy

    baitzah 21:b, and s”a o”c 512 you can’t invite a goy to a yom tov meal

    Mishna Brurah 512 you can’t invite a goy even if the food was made before yom tov

    now wolf, please do tell the name of the rav that said you can invite a goy for the yom tov meal??

    #1143982

    BHTWIA
    Participant

    Regarding inviting non-Jews on yom tov:

    it was explained to me by a rav that cooking for them is assur m’d’orisa. Inviting them is assur m’d’rabanan. Why? because even if you are only serving sandwiches, what are you going to do if they ask for a cup of tea? And regarding non-Jews who are in the process of converting, it is still not allowed without certain items being done differently (I don’t recall the exact details).

    Regarding non-Jewish or intermarried relatives, the most important thing is to always remain civil and pleasant to EVERYONE. Also, while it may be appropraite at some times to no longer have contact with certain people, ba’alei teshuva may have kibud av considerations(like if the sibling is intermarried and it is a big deal to the non-frum parents that they be invited for Thanksgiving, or something like that). Everyone should use common sense, ask shailos, and be civil and pleasant to all.

    #1143983

    chesedname
    Participant

    BHTWIA

    and cherrybim

    well said

    tb believe me if i wrote better, life would be easier. i don’t write much as my employees do it for me, so what you see is how i dictate it to them, not used to correcting it.

    one thing for sure if i wrote like wolf, he wouldn’t stand a chance 🙂

    arc stop wasting your breath and my time.

    #1143984

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    now wolf, please do tell the name of the rav that said you can invite a goy for the yom tov meal??

    Doesn’t matter, does it? I’ve already decided that I’m not going to argue further with you on this and that we should return the thread to it’s original purpose.

    Besides, since you believe I’m an apikorus (for reasons entirely unrelated to whether or not you can have a non-Jew over for Yom Tov) and since I’ve advised everyone THREE TIMES already to contact their own LOR regarding this issue and to NOT RELY ON ME, what difference does it make to you?

    One last thing… I hope you never suffer from self-image issues. You wouldn’t want someone to label you an apikorus for it.

    The Wolf

    #1143985

    so right
    Member

    If more people would do the proper thing, and sit shiva and cut off these intermarrieds, you wouldn’t have these issues.

    #1143986

    dunno
    Member

    chesedname

    Good job! Now was that so difficult?!

    #1143987

    oomis
    Participant

    im more concerned with overmutaring

    and you are more concerned with overassuring “

    I want to over-assure you that I never been over-mature. 🙂

    And if there is NO specific issur told to Moshe m’Sinai and written down in the Torah sheh b’al peh, then it is NOT an issur d’Oreisah. Even d’rabbanan, we have to be careful to differentiate between actual halacha and its gedarim, versus the gedarim ON the gedarim, which are chumros, and which every rov may hold differnetly. At least, let’s not be so quick to judge, and not to deride kulos that are within halachic guidelines. Hashem does not ask us to refrain from enjoying life – to the contrary. When we appear before Him after 120 years, He will ask us outright if we enjoyed the life He gave us and made use of the beautiful things in this world.

    #1143988

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    so right and we would lose more Jewish kids. Did you not read my post about my cousin who BECAME FRUM?

    #1143989

    chesedname
    Participant

    wolf

    i find it interesting, you rant and rave how you outsmarted the torah. you made sandwiches before yom tov.

    i kept saying it’s still not allowed.

    you claimed to ask a rav, and asked me for proof it’s not allowed, i proved that proof. why the secret who the rav is?

    and if you have nothing to back up your claim, you shouldn’t be posting non existent halachos on line.

    if you would have formed it as a question that would be fine, but not well i serve sandwiches so that’s OK

    #1143990

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I’ll tell you what, chesed….

    I’ll do the opposite of “heter shopping.” I’ll ask another rav and even abide by his decision. Does that make you happy?

    However, I’m also going to ask if you’re allowed to cook for an apikorus on Yom Tov (since an apikorus has a status of a non-Jew vis-a-vis many halachos). Who knows? Perhaps I won’t even be allowed to cook for myself.

    The Wolf

    #1143991

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Dealing with non-Jewish relatives is a complex issue and this should be dealt with your LOR who knows the whole situation.

    I know many people who have had non-Jewish relatives over for holidays after consulting with their Rabbis. All Orthodox.

    #1143992

    What about a situation in which a non Jewish waiter eats food cooked by a Jew, during his/her down time?

    #1143993

    chesedname

    i admire your kanois

    i did not hear wolf either ranting or raving.

    wolf did not claim to have outsmarted the Torah, he claimed to have acted within it’s bounds.

    no one here needs to be pressured to discuss the name of their Rav.

    and not only is it proper to capitalize G-d, certainly respect demands to capitalize Torah.

    #1143994

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    i find it interesting, you rant and rave how you outsmarted the torah.

    FTR, I NEVER made any such claim.

    The Wolf

    #1143995

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Thanks Mod80.

    #1143996

    chesedname
    Participant

    dunno

    “Good job! Now was that so difficult?! “

    uuh i dunno lol

    #1143997

    chesedname
    Participant

    am i the only that cares of the hypocrisy here?

    wolf says what he wants, you disagree, he says prove it, when you do he says ok enough of this conversation.

    #1143998

    chesedname
    Participant

    side question on spell check using google tool bar, if i want to correct whta to what, by mistake i clicked add to dictionary, how do i undo that?

    otherwise every time i write whta it will remain as such.

    thanks

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