Is it Getting too expensive????

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  • #595853
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Do you think its getting to expensive to be frum?

    The price of Kosher food (Meat, cheese especially) and even more if you want Hemish brands. Chalav Yisroel can be quite expensive especially Non Milk (ie Ice cream, butter etc)

    The price of living in a frum area costs more than a non-frum area (Real estate costs housing prices rents etc)

    And ESPECIALLY Yeshiva tuition. I know many people that are either pulling their kids out of yeshiva or having less kids. Yeshiva tutitions are $10K-$20K and sometimes higher (especially for special ed , I think Kulanu costs $40K a year)

    Even people with good jobs cannot afford $70K-$80K a year in tutitons (7 Kids x $10K a kid tuitions)

    #752669
    Grandmaster
    Member

    Being frum is never “too” expensive.

    As far as tuition, move to Brooklyn and pay about $4,000 a year, if not less.

    #752670
    BasYisroel94
    Participant

    OK, since I’m not yet in the stage of life where I’m thinking about the price of living (although, now that you meantion it, it seems pretty scary), it may not be fair to write this; but I’ve always been taught and therefore believe that Hashem doesn’t give someone a nisayon greater than they can handle.

    Well, although that’s all fine and dandy in theory, It sounds very hard to understand in practice…

    #752671

    Of course it’s getting too expensive

    But thats what happens when Frum neighboorhoods get too big for themselves.

    Real estate prices skyrocket due to demand because EVERYONE wants to live in that neighboorhood. And no one wants to dare try living in an upstart community because, “what would their friends in the other neighboorhood say?”

    Kosher food prices will continue to rise when each product or resturant needs 4 different hechsharim just to appeal to enough customers to keep them from going under.

    Day school tuition is a result of all of these problems.

    Mechanchim need to get paid enough to afford housing in an overpriced neighboorhood, groceries,and they need to pay tuition for their girls (if they teach in a boys school) or boys (if they teach in a girls school)

    And once again it falls on the backs of the successful professionals to keep this endless cycle afloat.

    So maybe instead of just whining about all of this, community leaders and askanim can get involved and solve a real issue and not just some “crisis.”

    My idea would be for the rest of America (as i can not speak to the geography of the NY,NJ area) would be for newly married couples to start their own community in an area not so densly populated with religious jews. Within a few years you can have a world class frum community.

    But it would require someone breaking ranks..and we all know its the 4th Yarog V’all Ya’avor

    #752672

    Is it getting too expensive to be alive??? If G-d grants life, we must be thankful. Living, yet choosing a lifestlye to commit thousands and thousands of aveiros is not a solution.

    Yes, I’m offended at the openning sentence.

    #752673

    This is very true. My wife and I recently went to an OU conference session in Teaneck on the cost of Orthodox living. Many words were spoken but not much substance was said.

    What can we do about this?

    #752674
    mytake
    Member

    Cut the Sem in Israel, that should make things easier.

    #752675
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It isnt just the successful people expected to pay, its everyone.

    Paying $30K in tuition is not really an option when you make $50K a year (take out $10K for taxes (More if you live in Suburbs as opposed to the City) and $15K to live in NYC area) and before you even eat or pay utility bills you are $5K in the hole to tuition.

    And Jobs paying $50K are not so easy to get anymore.

    Brooklyn might be $4K in tuition per kid (5 Kids is STILL $20K) , but the real estate costs are higher, have you bought/rented a House/Apartment in Flatbush or Borough Park. So the money just goes elsewhere

    #752676
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    And I thought this is another ‘Get’ thread…

    #752677
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Lets first focus on the things we can actually cut.

    Number one in my view is weddings.

    As AZ likes to point out, nobody is even getting married and we are spending so much on weddings.

    But really, it is absurd that you need to spend a full year’s work on a single night.

    I propose we simply stop. No half measures. No limiting to 4 piece band.

    Meal in your house, and dancing in the shul. That’s it.

    #752678
    tomim tihye
    Member

    Tuition credits would certainly help.

    #752679
    PLONIALMONI4
    Member

    I am personally do not know what percentage of the BP/Flatbush community utilize food stamps,Section 8, welfare, WIC, etc. but it is substantial and I am not referring to the system abusers.

    Alot of people barely make it from week to week.

    We definitely are at the stage where new communities will be established beyond the NYC metropolitan area.

    Just a question of time

    #752680
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am not only talking about people on Food Stamps/Welfare etc

    I am talking about working people who have normal jobs.

    Even a Doctor who makes $200K a year cannot afford to easily pay $75K in year in tuition (for multiple kids).

    In Teaneck the property taxes are $10,000 a year and tuition is $10-$15K a year PER KID

    #752681
    pet peeve
    Member

    “living on G-d’s earth is expensive, but His retirement plan is outta this world”.

    #752682
    PLONIALMONI4
    Member

    zahavasdad

    You are only making my comments stronger

    #752683
    tryinghard
    Member

    Expensive indeed. But, did you ever think of our totta in himel? He gives kids, and the money to support them. With every child, comes a malach. Why push him away cause of a little tuition?

    #752684

    @Truth Be Told and @tryinhhard

    Hashem gave us the mitzvah of having children, but you are not obligated to put your own life in danger.

    Your comments on how the alternative is to “live a life transgressing thousands of averios” or “pushing away a malach because of a little tuition” are short sighted and incredibly insensitive to the families struggling to make ends meet under the crushing burden of a religious lifestyle

    Yes the community is guilty of some excess on the part of weddings and even bar/bat mitzvahs but this in no way justifies the outrageous and skyrocketing rates for an education. Especially for a sub par secular education (if you even believe in such non sense)

    The high food prices and real estate prices can be fixed with a few key moves but until we figure out the tuition mess, maybe its better to keep family sizes to a managable number

    #752685
    s2021
    Member

    mytake- I agree

    ZK- LOL

    PB- I in all seriousness love that idea

    #752686
    MindOverChatter
    Participant

    Are you talking about luxuries or a regular Jewish lifestyle? If the former, than yes, definitely cut your expenses. If the latter… Well, whoever said being frum was ever easy? Kosher food, tuition etc. are all expensive, but I would exchange my lifestyle for no money in the world!!

    #752687

    I think the OP didnt mean to sound like it came out. I’m sure he didnt mean that since its too expensive to be frum he’s going off the D. I think he just meant to ask for other solutions to the problem

    #752688

    it takes a couple of brave families to move and settle elsewhere….there is a frum life outside of NY/NJ….it is more affordable than you think….

    #752689
    mytake
    Member

    Cut the Sem in Israel. Cut the Sem in Israel. Cut the Sem in Israel. Cut the Sem in Israel. Cut the Sem in Israel.

    #752690
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Do you consider Food and lodging a “Luxury” of course many consider living in NYC area a “Luxury” How much is rent in Brooklyn $1600 a month for a 2 bedroom Apartment and if you have 6 kids. A house in Brooklyn will cost about $1M dollars

    #752691
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Zahavasdad,

    OK, so what do you suggest?

    #752692
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Cut the Sem. Cut the Sem. Cut the Sem. Cut the Sem. Cut the Sem.

    Totally.

    #752693
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I dont have answers only Questions.

    it took along time to get into this mess and it will take along time to get out

    But I do know this, the Catholic schools charge $3500 a year tutiton and the Yeshivas can charge $15K (or more)

    The money is going somewhere.

    If you have 23 kids in a class at $10K tution each, thats $230K in tution per class. pay the teachers $50K and you are left with $180K per class

    If you have 20 classes in this school you are left with $3.6 Million for other expenses like Adminstration ,insurance, utitlies e , building maintaince etc . Which do not add up to $3.6 Million.

    #752694

    im pretty sure the Rabbis are pocketing those extra millions

    probably to pay for their private islands they own and live on in the summer

    #752695
    mytake
    Member

    popa

    I said In Israel. In Israel. In Israel. In Israel. In Israel.

    #752696
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Other than cutting down on wedding which I totally agree

    I dont think anyone has any real solutions.

    I dont know where the money is going, Unless its totally mismanged .

    I can also tell you I doubt people working at Yeshivas (Rebbes, Morahs, Secular Ed teachers) are making $50K a year. The actual number I heard is about $10K a year. I just picked that number because I thought it was a fair salary for someone in Chinuch

    #752697
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The money is going somewhere.

    Where do you think it’s going? Do you agree with Mod. 80?

    #752698
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If you have 23 kids in a class at $10K tution each, thats $230K in tution per class.

    If they are each paying that much. They are not.

    pay the teachers $50K and you are left with $180K per class

    Is there only one teacher the whole day? You want to pay all the day’s teachers a combined 50k? Does that include the cost of their benefits and the school’s share of their FICA?

    #752699
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    But I do know this, the Catholic schools charge $3500 a year tutiton and the Yeshivas can charge $15K (or more)

    Off the top of my head:

    The Catholic Church has a centralized hierarchy and system. We do not — by us it’s usually every small group for itself.

    The Catholic Church has about a billion more people supporting it than we do. The cost of the school gets spread among far more people — and that’s true even just at the diocese level (leaving aside any funds the local systems may or may not get from Rome).

    The Wolf

    #752700
    TheGoq
    Participant

    don’t forget to pay the underappreciated office staff

    #752701
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Oh they are paying the money, Try to get a discount on Tuition, its humilating and not easy and if you have a real job, they are not going to give it to you anyway.

    If you Make $70K the board will consider you “Rich” even though you have 6 kids in Yeshiva at $10K each. Many Schools will kick you out if you dont pay.

    $50K (Assuming $25K for religious and $25K for Secular) was the combined pay for a full time teacher. About what a public school teacher might make. But Actually its probably less.

    edited

    #752702
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The actual number I heard is about $10K a year.

    Not in the schools charging 10k+ in tuition.

    #752703
    bpt
    Participant

    Why stop at frum? Know how much it costs to get / stay married? Raise kids? Eat more than bread / water?

    Good things, worthwhile things, in life cost money. Things needed to be Frum are no different.

    It doesnt “cost”… it PAYS!

    #752704
    mytake
    Member

    bpt

    “It doesn’t “cost”…it PAYS!”

    Well said.

    #752705
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Read this, with the comments. You aren’t the first person to not properly understand a school’s actual expenses and income, and you won’t be the last.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=70046

    #752706
    tryinghard
    Member

    First get me a teacher earning $50k…. Then, I might agree w/you that schools/yeshivas are on a tight budget.

    #752707
    bpt
    Participant

    Well said.

    Its not my own; the quote is an old one;

    Qualtity workmanship doesn’t cost.. it pays!

    #752708
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    First get me a teacher earning $50k…. Then, I might agree w/you that schools/yeshivas are on a tight budget.

    So you think the yeshivas have loads of extra money around?

    #752709
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Interesting Letter and comments.

    But it seems to me the #1 issue is the books, lots of people are speculating on the books (On either side of the issue).

    Nobody can say for sure if the Bais Yaakov is running a surplus or a deficit since the President of BYBP is not opening the books for people to see.

    Most non-profits have CFO’s and compliance employees (Including such places as OHEL)

    It is important to have books everyone can believe in

    #752710
    bpt
    Participant

    Since you mentioned BYBP by name, did anyone see the full page ad in Hamodia announcing that all is well and the ship is not sinking, and the school is not closing.

    They have a new board (no names listed), they have a Rabbinical advoisory board (these names, they listed). No mention of what chnaged in the $$ dept, though.

    And to think, we were worried they were gonna fold. (yeah, right.)

    #752711
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #752712
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its unfortunate we went a little OT here, but those anti-books comments missed the point. MY point was its getting expensive, not if yeshivas are hoarding money.

    The president of BYBP took out an ad in Misphacha Magazine asking for money. As a donor I do have to the right to know where my money is going.

    The Better Business Bureau rates charities, One of the criteria to be a recommended charity is to have your books open.

    Now maybe you dont think its anyones business what the books are, and thats fair, but if someone IS going to give it is their business. Nobody wants to give to charity if they think they money is being abused.

    People dont even want to give to charity if their money goes to pay the phone bill or electric bill

    #752713
    tryinghard
    Member

    What’s with all the government funds schools get? Is it not part of their income? Where is all that money going to? For the schools under a mosed (meaning not privately run), there should be no talk about too little money. What is Building Fund money for? According to what I know, these buildings come from their father (the rabbi) who bought them after the war. Why are we, the parents, being choked?

    #752714
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, zahavasdad, it’s expensive to be frum. But it’s also a much more satisfying way of life, even in this world. And blaming the schools for overcharging (which, IMHO, is ridiculous since most run on a deficit even though waste is kept to a minimum) doesn’t help pay the bills.

    BTW, no yeshiva or BY that I know of will insist on $50,000 tuition if your income is only $70,000. They’re not dumb, they know how to add.

    #752715

    how about lowering the standards… (weddings…)

    #752716
    jonas
    Member

    Try comparing per pound prices on chicken, beef, gallon of milk, BBQ chicken at a takeout place. It is exORBITANT

    #752717
    m in Israel
    Member

    When reading all the uninformed opinions in these type of discussions, it is easy to understand why schools don’t want to open up their books to everyone and anyone! That being said, I have no doubt that if someone who intends to make a large donation asks to see the books, he would be shown them.

    But more to the point, zehavasdad, your numbers are very confusing. Generally speaking schools that are charging over $10,000 in tuition are paying their teachers SIGNIFICANTLY more than your numbers. (Generally the schools with higher tuitions are the more MO schools or the out of town schools. I taught secular studies in a somewhat MO school in the NY area 10 years ago and was making over $30,000 for the 3/4 of a day that I worked. I’m sure it’s more now.) Even the more “yeshivish” schools, whose tuitions are much lower, and who, contrary to your accusation, do give significant breaks, especially to families with many students in the same school pay teachers much more than $10,000! The operating expenses of schools are also often misunderstood.

    Of course there are always ways to be more efficient and save money, and some schools are run better than others. But the crux of the tuition crisis is that it is expensive to run a school, even in the most efficient way. Just to give a frame of reference, as of 2005, in the public school system, NY spent $14,119 per student, and NJ $13,800! And this does not include Limudei Kodesh obviously. . . To be fair, NY and NJ are among the highest spending states, and government can’t do anything efficiently, but the point remains that education is expensive.

    The Catholic school system is suffering financial difficulties of their own, despite the fact that the schools are mostly funded by the church hierarchy. In fact just 2 years ago the NY Diocese closed a number of Catholic schools in Queens as they could no longer afford to run them. They also converted quite a few schools throughout the city into “parish schools” where the local church becomes responsible for supporting the school, and “academies” where there is some sort of joint support (I’m not familiar with all the technicalities). Additionally, although their tuition levels are much lower, they very rarely give any tuition breaks (although some do have family discounts). Overall the whole model is financially very different.

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