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Yes, Chazal have wrote about the wonders of the universe. All over Shas and Medroshim. And btw why do you need anybody to write a book a bout it? Go on a hike in the woods, look at the stars, you’ll be astounded about the briah. Besides, science books nowadays are laden with kfirah which is ossur to read. When I used to be in yeshiva they forced me to go to science class and they were talking about a certain type of worm that I forget what exactly was but the point is the science book said, “It is so wondrous of a creature that it’s as if it was programmed by a programmer. But we know that it really just evolved blahh blah ” The science book couldn’t admit it! I don’t get it what’s your rush to learn science? I was forced to learn it, and it was pretty boring! I was always nispoel from the briah not science books – they made it boring and disgusting!
I have a question about this whole argument.
Where did all the extra years go? I am going to assume that everyone here believes in Sheshes Ymei Breishis, and it says very clearly that Adam was created on the sixth day of the universe.
Make a mathematical calculation of the years in the Torah (which are quite clearly spelled out) and where did the billions of years go? Let’s just say 3000 years until Yetzias Mitzrayim (it is less, but just for our purposes let us push it up to keep the numbers easy and to avoid any problems) that number (the accurate one) can be found by simply adding the numbers in Sefer B’reishis.
then add another say 1000 years (really less) until the Churban. Again, that number can be obtained by taking the number of years after Yetzias Mitzrayim that the Bais Hamikdash was built (in Milachim) and adding the number of years that all the kings ruled. add another 70 years for Galus Bavel/Parus Umadai, I think we are up to slightly over 4000.
add another 500 years (less) for the second Bais Hamikdash (I don’t know any primary source for that, anyone who does, please let me know, but I think everyone will agree that it wasn’t longer than that, or at least not much)
at that point the current system of years comes into play, so even if we say that the 2009 figure is incorrect, I don’t think that it is inaccurate by more than a few years, so even 100.
the number I have here is 6670. That is wrong because I gave so much extra time everywhere. But even if it were accurate, in the scheme of things, what is the difference between 5770 and 6670 if we are talking about that vs. billions of years?
Why can’t it be 5770?
“BS”D
Again, Ames, what are you setting out to learn? The positions of the stars? Their brightness and even their composition? Or their supposed origins?
Only the last can be spiritually damaging, and even that is not a given if all you want to find out is how we understand the way Hashem created them. The Torah is not meant to give us the technical details of creation, only to make it clear Who created the world and for what purpose. Parshas Bereishis is hard enough to listen to on Simchas Torah; would you like to hear a series of chemical reactions as well? (The only chemical reaction that matters on Simchas Torah is the reaction of ethanol with various human cell structures….)
The problem is only found in cases of brainwashing by those who use their findings to deny Hashem and the authenticity of the Torah.”
Well said.
“On the contrary – it’s clear that on the fourth day Hashem said the sun should shine during the time-period that was called “day” and the stars/darkness should rule during the time-period called “night”. Since then, that hasn’t changed, and obvisouly, as we can see today, the sun and the stars have decided that the time period called day plus the time period called night, are 24 hours.”
How does the fact that Hashem said the sun should shine in the day and the stars at night prove that hashem created the sun and stars in literally 24 hours?
By the way Justaguy “The Torah is not meant to give us the technical details of creation” The Torah is the blueprint of the world (Medresh Rabbah) and I saw the Groh (I forget where) said that the history of every single blade of grass is found in the Torah.
I meant mitsva 545 in my last post
When did I say girls should learn Shas and Medroshim? I said it’s all contained there. MAybe some nice RAv oneday will publish “Likuttei Maamorei Chazal al Habriah”. And I still hold nature walks and star gazing are 10000000000 times better than science books! They’re so boring overloaded in kfira! I used to think nature and animals and stars and chemicals etc. were fun until I saw science! The whole think is miyusdik
“Poshite Yid, but the info isn’t accesible!” So it isn’t but it’s there, and that’s my point, and if somebody really learns he’ll get there! Or maybe we’ll get that nice Rav to write up a sequel “Yalkut Historiya shel Blades of Grass min HAtorah”
FIne. Which blade of grass do you want to know about? I’ll check it up, and get back to you. Anyways, my point was that “learning science instills me with love and fear of HAshem” depends: From science books: No, quite the opposite, at least from my experiences. From nature and a person that looks around and enjoys the world without the brainracking silly depressing theories and hypothesises (and those horrendous vocabulary terms they’re latin or something), then this is where you get yiras shomayim from. I think many seforim say the beauty of pondering nature to lead to emunoh and stuff.
Of course, the microscope just make you more and more nispoel! I’m talking about LEARNING science books(Boring).
Joseph,
The Chinuch (mitzva 545) clearly states that no species of animal ever goes extinct. Do you believe this to be the case?
Poshite Yid 613- I think whether one finds science books and the “depressing theories and hypothesies” boring is just a matter of personal taste. Some people hear music and want to learn to play an instrument. Others are just content to listen to the music. No big deal.
“Where did all the extra years go? I am going to assume that everyone here believes in Sheshes Ymei Breishis, and it says very clearly that Adam was created on the sixth day of the universe”
If you say the sheishes yemei brieshes werent literall 24 hour days then this isnt a problem
To the defense of myself: Science books happen to be boring, and that’s just a matonoh min hashomayim, but my point is: They are spiritually dangerous, laden with kefira, freethinking, and the a to z s of Webster’s Atheistic and Agnotistic Dictionairy ( if it existed).
Poshite Yid 613, it seems from your posts that you feel the study of science from textbooks or formal coursework is unnecessary because it’s “disgusting”, “brainwracking”, and “boring”, and therefore far inferior to learning about science through their own observations of nature. However, these science books (minus the assumptions about the origins of the life, the universe, and everything) are simply the observations of many scientists. In fact, many people find the study of science to be personally fascinating and challenging, and more intellectually satisfying than learning solely through their own observations. This study of the world around us, whether through formal study of science or through our personal observations, can lead to increased appreciation of the niflaos haBorei.
I really don’t know anything about astronomy. Nor do I really care to. However, if you want to talk chemistry, that’s something that’s astounding. The more I learned about how the different atoms and molecules interacted with each other the more amazed I was that people could learn this and NOT believe in Hashem. And the information I learned came from science books and (non-Jewish) professors.
anon – I’m in agreement with you. The science books are a tool to enhance your own powers of observation. They not only prevent you from needing to reinvent the wheel, but they also introduce you to things you could never have observed on your own with no instruction. I’d like to know how you would be able to predict where to point your telescope in the sky without understanding the science that is in the books. Without it, you would just be gazing more or less randomly.
If chemistry is your thing, like haifagirl, you’d have a lot of trouble studying the subject by observation alone and without instruction (whether formal or textbook).
anon ( I’ll forget about you minusing things off) still the whole yesod of scientific thought even if it some innocent “simply the observations of some scientists” is EVIDENCE. That’s the whole scientific method, if you learned about it. You make a hypothesis, you need to find evidence. They challenge our mesorah of Har Sinai and just about everything because you must have EVIDENCE. Our answer is obvious: How many times has somebody bug u to prove something and u say, “I’ve seen it with my own eyes, I don’t need to prove it to u. We were at Har Sinai, atoh horayso lodaas ki hashem hu elokim ain od milvado – Hashem opened up the shomayim and showed us He was there, and non other (Rashi)! So the whole scientific method of analysis and everything that distorts everything is enough of a reason why not to learn it. If you happen to get an eidel science book (there aren’t much but I”ve seen a few that are semi eidel) then ok. But I still feel being mispoel from the briah is much better. I wouldn’t trust any of those kfira sponsered science books anyways.
I heard a moshel from a choshuve Rosh yeshiva that imagine you have a guy at NIagra Falls, and then he has a postcard. He’s standing right in front of Niagra Falls, but staring at the photograph saying how beautiful this is . That guy’s a fool he’s at Niagra FAlls!
Anyways, even if science books don’t negatively impact you because you’re so sure of yourself that you have an iron wall surrounding your neshoma (unfortuanantely I wasn’t blessed with anti-Hashpoah TM just boredom towards science books) there are so many people that got harmed! Just look at some of the people earlier in this article who were mevazeh Chazal about their knowledge of science! Didn’t the gedolim put somebody’s books on cherem for that?
BS”D
So what you’re saying is that we shouldn’t turn to Torah for science?
The principles of science are contained in Torah. There are technical details, of use to few of us, which we need to use human tools to measure.
The principles that allow a scientist to figure out that star X produces Y heat were laid down at creation. Hashem did not give us the technical details in the Torah because He knows very well we would not sit and listen to chemical equations in shul. Instead He gave us the wisdom to find those details and then to choose between being partners in creation or chas vesholom using the yetzer horo to either walk away from emunah, or, worse, to destroy.
The same nuclear fission that produces electricity in the US is what Mad Mahmoud wants to get his hands on in order to blow up half the world. Hashem created it and it is up to us to find out how to use it the right way.
A600Kilo-Bear posted that” “Rav Firer from Ezra uMarpeh could probably pass (language barrier aside) with a higher score than many US medical graduates and with a far higher score than the South Asian graduates who work in US emergency rooms (or much of the flotsam and jetsam with unpronounceable names and unverifiable credentials who wear name tags with “Dr” and hang around Maimonides beis refuah in BP). Something tells me he is not the only one. “
Rav Firer consults with a number of scientific and medical authorities to gain his knowledge. In addition, he arranges for many lecture series by scientific and medical authorities. I would say that he has pursued a pretty strenuous, if unconventional, scientific education.
starwolf, what about the Chazon ISh? I heard ashiur from a choshuveh rosh kollel that was praising the Chazon ISh’s knowledge of medicine he even adviced top brain surgeons despite ever picking up a medicine book. The rosh kollel said he knew it from “kol haoseik batorah lishmah zocheh lidvarim harbeih”
How sad that someone can glory in their ignorance, and be happy that he has no knowledege of physics, biology, or chemistry–since his faith is so small that it might make him “mevazeh Chazal”.
Of course, if one thinks that thinking that Chazal did not know everything (literally)is “mevazeh”–this is another matter. Lack of access to modern technological means (microscopes, telescopes, brain scans, radiolabelling etc does not lessen the learning or midot of Chazal, or change their place as the the religious leaders of Am Yisrael.
starwolf I was forced to learn science for many years in school. And same here, how sad can someone be basking in their ignorance of human brain worship, and not admitting that Chazal knew better than him, even in science. It is a major bizayon to be mefakfeik about their knowledge of science, and I now see why science is spiritually dangerous, by the comments you and otthers have said.
ames, it doesn’t. But one still has a chiyuv to fight for Kavod Hatorah. Why are comments that mevazeh Chazal allowed to go through?
Poshite Yid, your reply to me seems inconsistent. First you argue that science is “kfirah” because it’s based on observations. Then you quote Rashi regarding the presence of every yid at matan torah. Rashi is actually pointing out that we know matan torah happened because we were there–our own personal observations aka the scientific method.
Like haifagirl, I find that knowledge inspires my emuna much more than ignorance (though I am more interested in physics than chemistry). Obviously your mileage may vary.
Since this thread was originally about astronomy, allow me to make a suggestion for those who with to do some scientific observation of the Heavens, along with a Jewish source to accompany them:
Find a clear spot to observe the night sky. Take along a star map to help you locate big dipper, Orion, and the Pleiades. Take along a Tanach and open it to Sefer Iyyov, Perek 38.
Let me know then if science leads to emunah, or kefirah.
ames:
The argument by some was that science is best learned via Chazal, while others said that Chazal did not know everything we know today about the sciences.
Then it went downhill from there.
ames:
The simple answer is ask your LOR. He knows you better than most of us. There are people who can learn science and it will strengthen their emunah. There are others, and we’ve unfortunately seen them on this thread, for whom it will have the opposite affect.
Your LOR will probably know which category you will most likely be in.
Poshite Yid,
I could not comment on the Chazon Ish. I do not know which surgeons he advised, nor which advice he gave–I have not heard anything about that. If you have any more detailed information, I would appreciate it if you would post it.
My comment about Rav Firer is based on personal knowledge, not on anything that I have heard.
At the end of the day is learning science spiritually dangerous? It depends how, but the classical way of this age dihaynu learning the present day books is for sure dangerous (and if you’re one of those amazing people who have anti-Hashpoah, kol hakavod).
Poshite Yid 613–again, you are misinterpreting. I am not saying that today’s scientists “know better” than Chazal. I am saying that today’s scientists have access to information that Chazal did not. Those are two very different things, and my statement implies no disrespect.
starwolf that is disrespect to say that science knows more even if its because they have “more access”, and ames, i learned math very well (in fact skipped many grades up for math) but, I quit after Algebra 2. And no, it did not enhance my avodas Hashem. And btw “CHazal didn’t teach us science or math” Did they teach you Torah either? You’re gonna answer yeah just pick up a sefer. Guess what, maybe they taught us science and math too, just pick up a sefer. And to everybody (except for those who have antiHashpoah) even if you’re not gebentched with boredom to science books, is it still worth the bad Hashpoah even if you’re nispoel from it?
I’m not saying anyone should do either of these things, but just asking- isn’t wondering whether Chazal could have invented an airplane or performed open-heart surgery, or built a rocket ship different than wondering whether indeed the world is Hashem’s creation and the Torah his word?
BS”D
My point in bringing up Rav Firer is that his Torah education and perspective is what enables him to understand whatever sources he uses to look up the information he needs to save Yiddishe neshomos. I know full well how he obtains this information. Anyone can obtain it nowadays online. I have a friend who is a professor in Ein Karem, and when I need advice he sends me right to the NIH website. I understand about 60% of it which is more than I need to know whether or not something I am eating is causing me some nuisance health problem. And that 60% is probably enough to pass med boards if I spent time learning it for every condition that a particular specialist needs to know.
On the other hand, Rav Firer is not a scientist who learns science so he can get a grant and perhaps find out how simian behavior mirrors human behavior, and then use that worthless information to prove that we are just animals chas vesholom.
BS”D
If Hashem had decreed that the airplane was to be revealed in the time of Chazal then they would have invented it. The principles were always there.
Ames, I’ve skimmed through most of the posts (I’m 7 days post partum, so I don’t have that much time) and I just wanted to offer you my words of “wisdom.”
First, learning anything, including Torah can be spiritually dangerous. Just think of the four people who learned pardes…
You seem to have a strong emotional and religious support system. If learning about astronomy strengthens your emunah, I recommend continuing. If there is anything that begins to bother you, talk to the people you trust – your husband, your rabbonim, your family. Its ok to ask questions and understand even if you think it sounds like you are turning to kefira. Its important to understand where you are going wrong, why you are going wrong or how you are misunderstanding things.
There are people who don’t find science and nature spiritually fulfilling and its hard for them to understand why you want to learn it. Its like trying to explain to me why music is beautiful – I just don’t appreciate it.
Good luck and shana tovah!
“Just think of the four people who learned pardes…”
They entered the Pardes. Probably ames wouldn’t.
Ames, glad to help 🙂
Mod80, my point is anything can be spiritually dangerous. Science just gets a bad rep as “the bad thing”…
I know, your point was clear. I just wanted to clarify a detail…80
Btw Reb Elchonon Wasseerman in Kovetz Shiurim Chelek 2 klers a shayla if it’s mutor to learn limudei chol lishmoh, for the geshmak of the limud., I think he came out it was ossur, unless if it was for parnossoh
A600KiloBear:
Achitofel learned 400 Halachos of a “Migdol Haporach B’avir”, what we would think of today as an airplane or helicopter.
with the owner of the thread satisfied, and the general momentum of the thread gone awry, I’d say there’s no good reason to leave the thread open any longer.
There is a NEW momentum, people are still interested, the tone has not deteriorated.
SJS, I like what you wrote very much. I could not have expressed it as eloquently. Are we going to have a vacht nacht here in the CR?
A 600KiloBear posted:
“BS”D
My point in bringing up Rav Firer is that his Torah education and perspective is what enables him to understand whatever sources he uses to look up the information he needs to save Yiddishe neshomos. I know full well how he obtains this information. Anyone can obtain it nowadays online. I have a friend who is a professor in Ein Karem, and when I need advice he sends me right to the NIH website. I understand about 60% of it which is more than I need to know whether or not something I am eating is causing me some nuisance health problem. And that 60% is probably enough to pass med boards if I spent time learning it for every condition that a particular specialist needs to know.
On the other hand, Rav Firer is not a scientist who learns science so he can get a grant and perhaps find out how simian behavior mirrors human behavior, and then use that worthless information to prove that we are just animals chas vesholom. “
No, actually looking at the NIH website is not enough to help one pass the boards. (By the way, how do you think that the information gets to the NIH website? By the virtue of scientists, who are more than happy to share their information. In any event, it is the more specialized knowledge that one needs, and that is why Rav Firer (and others) actually take the time to talk to the scientists who do actually study these things full-time. He also understands that scientists do not “learn science so that we can get a grant”. You can learn all the science that you wish–that will not get you a grant–and it does not matter if you are affiliated with Brisk or Bar-Ilan. You get grants so that you can perform studies to obtain specific answers to specific questions. That usually means experimental studies. The reason for the grants is that the experiments cost money to perform. So we get grants to do science–not do science to get grants.
A number of those experiments have lead to amazing health advances. Your idea of scientists trying to prove that “men are just animals” is ridiculous. Do you really think that the average scientist spends 60+ hours/week in the laboratory for that? Why don’t you look at cancer survival rates from 20 years ago and today? The same goes for a number of(non-cancer)childrens’ diseases. This is the result of scientific investigation, of which you are so contemptuous. Perhaps this has not affected you personally–but every time anyone goes into a hospital and sees a child who has benefitted from one of the treatments that keep them alive, one should keep in mind that that treatment started in the laboratory of a scientist. A scientist who, in all probability, did not make any money by making it freely available. That is why we spend 60+ hours/week in the laboratory–for knowledge, not grant money.
Numerous examples upon request.
That never gets old 🙂
80, I trust your opinion. If you think it should stay open, so be it.
On one condition. You let me close the thread when the time comes.
Publice private convos…
Oh, sorry mepal, I forgot you like to get in on all the mod convos 😉 26
DEAL!
BS”D
Read about all the spurious grants that are given to mediocre scientists out there. Then come back to me and tell me what is ridiculous. Many of these grants have to do with certain types of behavioral science that I cannot describe on this board even by using loshon sagi nahor.
And yes, you can read enough to pass a medical board and even to practice medicine on yourself. Do you think I trust the doctors where I am? Besides, most of the NIH contributors are on the public or university dime and are compelled to share their findings because it is their job to do so and not because they are in any way altruistic.
Finally, the advances in medicine came mostly from drug company labs, from the profit motive, and even if an advanced treatment came from a university, it is only the drug company that could get it to the patient. Universities and public labs are full of drones who are there only for the job security and yes, some of them get grants for utterly ridiculous scientific experiments that prove nothing of any value.
Haven’t had a chance to read through this all. I am now writing from my lab, and some of these posts are rather disturbing to say the least.
A few prefaces:
A) There is clearly nothing wroing with studying science, and today it may be the greatest method of understanding niflaos haborei that we have.
B) Studying science is possibly the greatest chesed there is, as one who suffers from a disease wants nothing other than some relief.
C) I don’t believe that evolution has been proven for reasons I may discuss in another post, as it is long. However, we must learn to take what scientists have proven and separate from what is speculation. The differences are often subtle. But we must learn the art of critical thinking. In gemara terms, is something muchrach or not. Every single line one reads or writes in science must constantly be filtered this way.
Now for the direct issues:
1) Joseph, you brought Chazal’s knowledge of the rakia as a proof to their expertise. Kindly define what the rakia is and what it was that chazal added to our understanding of this astronomical entity that we did not know before.
2) Somebody wrote that one shouyld not study science from science books, but rather from the briyah. That is rather silly, and in your whole lifetime you will probably only gain the most simple and superficial understanding if you try to reinvent the whole wheel on your own. As Newton said, if we have seen further, it is because we have stood on the shoulders of giants. We can’t get anywhere new in science without understanding all that has preceded us to the best of our ability.
3) Tha gemara Pesachim clearly states that Chazal felt that non-Jews knew better than we did about astronomy. So all these arguments saying that they knew more than the scientists contradict an explicit gemara. Chazal were men of humility and emes, and did not hesitate to credit others. The same with Kibud Av which is learned from a Non-Jew in Kiddushin. Chazal searched for emes no matter what the source, as they had such integrity and intellectual honesty.
4) The Rambam Kiddush Hachodesh (17,24) similarly says that anything proven scientifically or mathematically has the status of divrei neviim.
5) The Rambam also says that the reason Chizkiya buried the Sefer HaRefuos was because it didn’t work.
6) As much as the astounding amount that scientists know now, it is just a drop in the ocean of what there is to know. This does not mean scientists are stupid or arrogant. It means there is plenty more work ahead of them.
7) As was discussed in another thread on this topic, I proved that chazal could not have known modern science, since if they did, they would have had a mitzvah de’oraisa of lo saamod al dam rayecha to launch an airplane at the advancing Roman horsemen at the time of the churban. One cannonball probably would have made all the horses and fighters retreat in panic. Since chazal did not do so, it means they were unable to. Similarly, if today’s gedolim had knowledge of how to cure cancer, they would be mechuyav to share that knowledge. Since they don’t, it means they do not know how.
8) Reb Moshe and Reb Shlom Zalman freely acknowledge that when they need to know how something works in order to pasken, they ask the scientists or engineers. They admit they they would not know on their own.
9) If you believe gedolim know more science than the scientists, kindly find me one who is willing to sit for a graduate level science exam on things we clearly know. Such as how to design a GPS system, or organic chemistry. (Noncontroversial and straightforward things.)
10) If our gedolim do not know, then as was raised before, exactly what generation did this stop. When Joseph quotes the Rama about science, did he know these things? If he did, when in the last 300 years did gedolim suddenly lose this ability?
A600KiloBear,
you are absolutely incorrect. Most major medical advances did not come from drug companies, they came from University and Hospital research laboratories. A detailed sudy of this has been done by the former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine, and the data are very clear about this. (Reference upon request)
I would say that I know a good many scientists; they are my colleagues and I would not classify any of them as “drones”, any more than I would classify my friends who study full-time in Yeshiva as “drones”. And, by the way, even with tenure, there is no job security in university research; if you actually knew anything about the subject, you would certainly know that. Perhaps this is not true “where you are” but it certainly holds for the US, most Western European countries, and Israel. And the system works best in those places.
How many original medical articles do you read every week? How would you know where the advances in medicine come from? If you were familiar with the literature, you would know that the things that you post are simply untrue.
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