Is there a word in davening that you always mispronounced?

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  • #1621690
    332
    Participant

    Is there a word in davening that you always mispronounced and only recently learned the correct way?

    #1621722
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    bal gevuros and baal gevuros – where bal means the opposite no strength

    #1621717
    Ctrl Alt Del
    Participant

    Not exactly a mispronunciation, but I never seem to be able to get past v’koreiv pizureinu in YT mussaf without an “ay yanny, yay yay” right afterward. It’s just ingrained in my head.🤣

    #1621730
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    A chatof is a shvo that is hard to pronounce under letters ה, ח, א, ע. Therefore the stress is never under a chatof. The shem Hashem should be pronounced as most words and as required by dikduk at the end as indicated in the Nodah Beyehudah.

    #1621732
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The shem א-לוה should be pronounced on the לו not at the end.

    #1621738
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    If you are a lifelong Ashkenaz and happened to find yourself in a Sehphardeshe shul for davening, there are certain words added in the kadish (already in Aramaic) that are real tounge-twisters that never seem to come out sounding the same way

    #1621736
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The shem above א-לוה should be pronounced as ah and not ha at the end as the word גבוה.

    #1621758
    The Frumguy
    Participant

    Way too many shlichei tzibbur mispronounce Hakadosh Baruch Hu’s name. It is with a cholam (Adonai), not a cheerek (Adeenai).
    I believe the tzibbur is not even allowed to answer Amen when it’s mispronounced.

    #1621767
    Takes3tomakemangos
    Participant

    It’s noy, or nuhye not nai. If you are sefardi it is nai.

    Laskern, are you saying that it is pronounced eLOkai?

    #1621770
    goygetter
    Participant

    Heard a baal tfilah chazunitzing on rosh chodesh “uminchasam veniskeihem kamidbaaaar” 🎶

    #1621777
    goygetter
    Participant

    Yes any —oy suffix in ashkenazy would be —–ay in sfaradi

    #1621782
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Take3tomakmangos, Rabbenu Bechaye says that in סורו נא אדני by lot, nai is the plural which for ashkenazim’s pronounciation is incorrect. Yes the correct pronounciation is eLOah.

    #1621784
    anonymous.chai
    Participant

    It’s not shihakol NÉE-HEE-YEH
    It’s shihakol NEE-HEH-YEH

    #1621795
    knaidlach
    Participant

    bigdoil zroiacha YI-DMU…. not YID-MU. they have different meanings.
    VA-YI-REU es Hashem va-yaaminu…not VA-YIR-U, they have different meanings.

    #1621796
    knaidlach
    Participant

    anonymous
    its not SHIhakol its SHE-hakol. a segol under the shin not a chirik

    #1621811
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    knaidlach, Thank you for pointing that out. The dagesh in the dalet changes the meaning from looks like to being still. The extra yud changes the meaning from seeing to fearing.

    #1621907
    Toi
    Participant

    Ya, not that I do this wrong but worth noting, where you put the emphasis on ve’uhavtuh in K”S will dictate whether you’re yotzei acc. to R Shloime Miller. I think R Belsky held that it’s obviously better to do it correctly but not me’akev, though I don’t understand why, as mis-emphasizing changes the tense from future to past.

    #1621919
    Avi K
    Participant

    The big problem is inadvertently saying apikorsut. For example, in keriat shema saying that Hashem נשבה לאבותינו instead of נשבע. Those who have trouble with the “ch” sound say מקלקל עולם בהסד. See also Megilla 24b.

    #1621920
    ChadGadya
    Participant

    Mispronouncing a segol or a sheva as a chirik, as in “SHI-hakol” or “asher kidEEshanu” seems to be a uniquely American mistake – I have never heard an Israeli or a Brit say it like that.

    Another bad mistake leading to an opposite meaning similar to “bal gevuros” is “oyev amo yisroel”, missing out the heh in oyHev.

    #1621929
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It says המדקדק ק”ש באותיותה מצננין לו את הגהנם whoever watches out to pronounce krias shema properly, the gehanim will be cooled off for him.
    Explains the Beis Yosef that he does things out of the ordinary, so Hashem also does things out of the ordinary as the gehinam is usually hot.

    #1621939
    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I think the OP meant words where you actually mix up the letters or something. The trend of pronouncing the ayin the same as an aleph is so mainstream I don’t see the point of mentioning it as a “mistake.” It’s about 100 years too late to try to fix that.

    I used to say “nigdol” in the lamnazeiach mizmor l’david every morning. Then, there was another one of these threads on the CR where are poster named papa bar abba mentioned he had made that mistake for years. That caused me to look in the siddur and realize that it’s actually nidgol and I had been saying it wrongly as well.

    #1621940
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    See the SA O”CH 61 and 62:1

    #1621999
    DrYidd
    Participant

    often people say/sing beterem kol, yitzeer nivrah as opposed to beterem, kol yitzeer nivrah. pure kefirah sung with gustoh

    #1622006
    midwesterner
    Participant

    You want apikursus? How about Boruch hu Elokeinu shebaranu lichvodo. That means we created Him C”v. Should be Sheb’ra’anu, that he created us for his honor.
    And many medakdekim will pronounce the word nih’ye with a sheva nach in the middle, as a two syllable word, not as was mentioned higher up this thread. NO change in teitch there.
    Or how about those that say “asher kiddyshanu,” There is a chirik chaser under the Kuf and a sheva na under the daled; not the opposite.

    #1622008
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    To explain more, the gehinam is being cooled off because he does things against his nature, so Hashem also does things against its nature.
    The sea split against its nature because Yosef escaped the wife of Potifar against his nature.

    #1622083
    cherrybim
    Participant

    It’s not Moshiach Tzidkecha; it’s Meshiach Tzidkecha
    It’s not Hodu Al Eretz Vshamayim; it’s Hodo Al Eretz Vshamayim
    It’s not Vtzadkeinu Bemishpot; it’s Vtzadkeinu Bamishpot

    #1622096
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    As I was educated in this, I will give a little lesson for those who were not.
    There are open and closed syllables. An over syllable can be extented forever, whereas a closed syllable can not. A closed syllable is either closed by shvo noch silent or a degash chazak which comes at the end of the syllable. There is also a dagesh kal in the beginning of a syllable in letters בגד כפת which after letters אהוי is omitted. There two kind of vowels, nekudos tenuah gedolos which have open syllables according the Magen Avraham O’CH 61 the siman is פתוחי חותם, a chirik followed by a yud, malipum a vov with a dot in the middle, tzere, cholem a vov with a dot on top and kometz. The rest are tenuah ketanos which have closed syllables. A shvo no follows a tenuah gedolah and a shvo noch a tenuah ketano. A letter having a degash chazak with a shvo, will be a shvo no. If above rules are violated the stress will be on it.

    #1622110
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Thank you midwestener for pointing that out. When we say it fast, we can make the mistake and not pronounce שבראנו correctly.

    #1622126
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I forgot to define a degash chazak. It is like having duplicate letters in which the degash resides one with a shvo noch and the other with vowel on the letter.

    #1622154
    besalel
    Participant

    Here are the most egregious ones I find most often (other than the first pasuk of k”sh as stated above):

    Asher Baranu Lichvodo (see midwesterner above) (changes meaning from who created us to who we created)
    Lishnei Ufur (as opposed to Lisheinei Ufur) in the second bruchu (changes from sleepers in the dust to two pieces of dust)
    Hodoo al Eretz Veshumayim as opposed to Hoddo al eretz veshumayim (in psukei dezimra) (changes from his glory is over the heaven and earth to praise for heaven and earth)
    Ki Lo CHAlu rachamecha instead of Ki Lo chaLU rachamecha (in modim) (changes meaning from because your mercy never ends to because your mercy never takes effect)

    #1622172
    aishet chover
    Participant

    midwesterner: Did you mean shva nach in your last line since chirik chaser is a tenua ketana? (Kid-shanu)

    laskern: What about melupam vav as first letter in a word- is the shva after it na or nach? (uvchol)

    #1622169
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I was unclear in saying an open syllable can be extended forever, so I will give an example the difference between רבי and רבים. The first is open and the second is closed. There is no closure in the length of pronounciation whereas in the second is closed by the ם. Also, since it is closed it violates the rule that a tenuah gedolah should be an open syllabe, so the stress is on it.

    #1622193
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    aishet chover, this is an argument, as I understand, between the GRA who holds it is a shvo noch and others.

    #1622195
    knaidlach
    Participant

    laskern
    yes there is an extra י in וייראו, plus the ר is a שבא נע

    #1622197
    knaidlach
    Participant

    laskern
    yes there is an extra י in וייראו, plus the ר is a שבא נע.

    VASHEM SHAMAYIM ASA. the word VASHEM is pronounced VA-DOI…not VA-A-DOI…

    #1622205
    midwesterner
    Participant

    Aishet Chaver: There is a dagesh in the Daled of Kedishanu. That is a dagesh chazak as it is in the ayin hapoal of a binyan pi’el conjugation. A sh’va under a letter with a dagesh chazak is always na.

    #1622212
    knaidlach
    Participant

    הרחמן הוא ישתבח לדור דורים ויתפאר בנו לעד ולנצח נצחים ויתהדר בנו לעד ולעולמי עולמים
    both BANU are BAnu meaning: with us, not baNU meaning: they built

    #1622221
    knaidlach
    Participant

    הן גאלתי אתכם….להיות לכם..
    its laCHEM – to you. not LAchem – bread

    #1622227
    knaidlach
    Participant

    משה ובני ישראל לך ענו שירה.
    בוקע ים לפני משה זה קלי ענו ואמרו
    its aNU – they answered, not Anu – us (we)

    #1622228
    midwesterner
    Participant

    to knaidlach and laskern:
    You don’t necessarily need the extra yud. See for example Koheles 3:14. V’haElokim asah sheyir’u lefanav. Posuk is clearly referring to yir’ah as in fear, not r’iya as in seeing. Yet there is only one yud. Dagesh can fill the gap. and the sh’va is na.

    #1622229
    knaidlach
    Participant

    i mentioned earlier about BAnu in end of bentching.
    in the regular way of singing the bentching its pronounced baNu in both. but as i said earlier it has a different meaning. (im sure you are singing it now lol)

    #1622241
    knaidlach
    Participant

    mitwestener. thank you for pointing it out.

    #1622246
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    I know it’s not exactly davening, but is it “dizban abba b’srei zuzai” or “dizaben abba b’srei zuzai, chad gadya, chad gadya”? I’ve seen/heard both versions.

    #1622543
    ChadGadya
    Participant

    WinnieThePooh, I can personally confirm that I was bought, not sold, and thus the correct pronunciation is “dizvan”.

    Kind regards,

    ChadGadya

    #1622533
    ChadGadya
    Participant

    Thanks laskern.

    However, a shuruk, also known as a kubutz (the three diagonal dots underneath) can sometimes be a tenuoh gedoloh as well, in lieu of the melopum, as in the word mezuzos in the shema. The clue is that it is an unstressed open syllable.

    A chirik without a yod can also sometimes be a tenuoh gedoloh. This occurs for example when the word “im” in a posuk has a cantillation mark, as opposed to being hyphenated (makaf). This is similar to the difference between “es” and “eis”. For example in hallel “im nedivim im nedivei amo” – the first im is hyphenated and is a tenuoh ketanoh, while the second is accented and is a tenuoh gedoloh, and should properly be pronounced “eem” – slightly longer than “im”.

    #1624140
    Meno
    Participant

    HoDO al eretz v’shamayim

    not

    HOdu al eretz v’shamayim

    #1624165
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Meno, mentioned above by besalel.

    #1624190
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Outside of davenen we find the Rashi on ורחל באה מן הצאן the pronounciation in the beginning or the end changes the meaning, where the Even Ezra clearly explains that the beginning is past and the end is current.

    #1624212
    Meno
    Participant

    Oh.

    So here’s another:

    l’ma’an tizk’ru

    not

    l’ma’an tisk’ru

    Did anyone say that one yet?

    #1624286
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Meno, mentioned in SA O’CH 61:17

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