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Would it be ok for two yeshiva guys to get a civil marriage for tax purposes, if they obviously will not do any issurim?
Maris ayin.
ok- ur joking, right popa?
He may be joking, but it’s an intriguing shailah. You may have to look into the civil union/marriage laws first. In many cases sham marriages for legal benefits are criminal fraud. This happens often in immigration settings, where people may “marry” a U.S. for the sole purpose of getting fast-tracked for citizenship status. Immigration officials often do extensive investigations to determine whether it is a real marriage – did the couple date, did they invite family to the wedding, do they live together, do they know about each others’ backgrounds, ect.
So two yeshiva guys doing this may be fraud, aside from any other more complicatted halachic issues related to maaris ayin.
Many years ago before the days when this kind of thing was accepted and before the airline security we currently have, there was an airline that offered a Valentines Day special of buy one ticket and your Valentine flys free. A guy from a NY yeshiva was getting married that day in Toronto so his friends went to the airport 2 by 2 and got half price plane tickets
popa – it’s not that i wasn’t willing to answer, as you put it, it’s that i really was not sure if you were serious. now that it seems you are, i’ll tell you why i think it’s assur. if it’s being done for tax purposes, apparently they are trying to cheat the government out of taxes. this is genaivas daas (making ppl think they are married) and sheker – lying to the government. DINA D’MALCHUSA DINA! we live in america – we must obey the rules.
and what a chilul Hashem!!!!!
and why would yeshiva guys even want to have such a piece of paper? it would have to bring their neshamos down a level or two. just the thought of this is disgusting.
Wasn’t this thread closed a few minutes ago? It definetly belongs to be closed.
Haqer- lol!! So cute
Would it be ok for two yeshiva guys to get a civil marriage for tax purposes, if they obviously will not do any issurim?
It would cause complications when they really get married. They would first have to get a civil divorce from each other.
Anyhow, I think it’s a chillul Hashem.
Why do you call it cheating the government? Who are you/they to define marriage!? My definition is two people who appriciate each other for who they are and say ‘hi’ whenever they meet.
it’s just NOT IN THE WAY OF THE TORAH to do this. PERIOD.
It’s not a joke. It’s a chilul HaShem.
It’s commission of a fraud.
While it seems like it’s ultimately not correct, there really is no precedent to deciding this, unlike the sham immigration marriages, so I think it’s a fair question.
NYS has redefined marriage to be anything goes and nothing to do with things that usually come with a marriage. So why can’t 2 yeshiva guys, who can be extremely close to each another (without being physically close, of course) consider themselves “married”? NYS has has just destroyed the both the sanctity and definition of marriage in NYS, so the answer should depend solely on how the state legally defines “marriage”.
This is assuming there are no other halachic issues like maris ayin. I would assume there is no such issue here because “lo nechshidu yisrael lo al mishkav zachar…” so it should be obvious to any observer that this is a marriage in the now-legal sense but not one that violates any issurim which should mean no maris ayin issue.
What about marriages where the couple doesn’t get a marriage license for insuranse and welfare reasons?
What about marriages where the couple doesn’t get a marriage license for insuranse and welfare reasons?
And why should they? There is no law mandating anyone get married to their girl or boyfriend. Many secular people live together and even have children without ever marrying, and are in full compliance with all laws. The civil law never requires one to get married.
shein, as long as they are properly reporting all household income, they are definitely not violating any civil law. Some might argue that there are maras ayin issues associated with obviously-frum couples cohabitating and/or having children without being civilly married, but that is a separate issue.
However, if the couple is not married and c”v one becomes ill, the other partner may not have legal standing to make medical or other decisions on behalf of the ill partner. And if c”v one partner dies, the survivor may likewise encounter legal problems regarding inheritance of the estate (assuming that both parents are listed on any children’s birth certificates, custody of the children would probably not be an issue).
anon: I think Bezalel was more concerned about the civil aspect than the religious aspect. That is what I addressed. As far as maris ayin, there is none, as there is chupa and kiddushin.
One can fully make a non-spouse have full legal standing on all their health issues. As well as on inheritance issues.
I’ve heard that R’ Pam zt”l would not be m’sader kiddushin to a couple who didn’t register civilly. IMHO, it’s more an inyan of C”H than M”A (and the model by which I judge this question as C”H, although it’s the reverse).
I think the point is that living in a way which is legitimately considered morally repulsive to the more upstanding members of (non-Jewish) society is a C”H (I used the term “legitimately” to exclude any case where the Torah compels us to act otherwise).
I understand why some people (e.g. Oomis) think it’s fraud. I’m not so sure, though, since, rachmana litzlan, marriage has just been legally redefined beyond it’s natural definition, so who is to say that it wouldn’t be 100% legal? I guess I would have to see the law to form an opinion, but I doubt that one of the conditions is that the couple have m”z.
why is this question only asked now, you could have asked the same question last week regarding a male and female, ie: a bochur with his female cousin etc. is it muttar to apply for civil marriage and get all the civil perks of marriage even though they wont be halachically married and wont do any issurim?
And I quote, Moshe Rabbeinu, in THIS WEEK’s PARSHA (Korach): “V’Yedatem ki niatzu ha’anashim ho’eilah es Hashem”. “And you will know that these men angered Hashem.” Rabbosai, I would be very afraid for earthquakes, tornadoes, etc. or (perhaps wishfully speaking) a splitting of the Atlantic! (Or the Hudson 😉 ) Hashem Yishmor.
Poppa – Such a marriage would possibly give you a tax break, it would also prevent a real marriage to a maidel since bigamy is illegal.
Imagine after you divorce the guy, how would you explain the divorce to the shadchan?
First of all, isnt it pure stealing to cheat from the government like that?
Second, why cant you just civilly marry anyone for tax purposes? Why does it have to be another male?
Third, it would be a huge chillul Hashem to have jews legally marrying the same gender.
I think any Rav would cry if he heard this shailah
The gemara in chullin says that goyim accepted many mitzvos and broke all of them except for a select few. One of them is “shelo kasvu kesubah al mishkav zachor.” With the moral decay of society, this is no longer the case. Do you want jews now writing a kesubah on mishkav zachor?! It is clearly against the way of the torah, and not because my gut is telling me so, which seems to be the response of most of the posters, but because the gemara says so.
Do you want jews now writing a kesubah on mishkav zachor?!
That’s not what is being proposed. What is being proposed is using it as a loophole (but you’ve brought up a good point; using legislation which is so offensive, even as a loophole, is a C”H).
Some people seem to be concerned with how this smells and looks.
I think the opposite. I think the best way we can show how illegitimate this law is, is to take it to such extremes that we show how it is a sham.
For it to be perceived that way, it would have to be done en masse, with media interviews making it clear that it was a protest. Your OP said that it was about a couple of yeshiva guys looking for a tax break.
PBA, you wrote:
Well, you could just not marry your wife, and then she will be a single mother and could collect all sorts of government benefits and stay on her parents health insurance.
My question on that is: Which government benefits would a single mother qualify for that a married mother would not, assuming the same household income (since presumably the frum “single” mother would still be including her partner’s income as household income)?
Why would a single mother include her boyfriend’s income? Legally she is not even supposed to, I believe.
shein, a single mother should definitely include her boyfriend’s income as part of her household income if they are living together. To omit his income may constitute fraud. If they are not living together she is not obligated to include it though.
anon: So if she is married but living apart, she would not include her husband’s income?
What if she’s married and living apart, but living with a new bf — she would exclude her husband’s and include her bf’s?
Many years ago a local dry cleaner had a 2 for 1 special on slacks. I took one pair of my husband’s (at the time) and one pair of mine. The lady wrote up the ticket and then noticed that one was a ladies pair and one was a mens pair. However, they were both wool slacks with zippers in the front. She started to argue with me that I couldn’t do that – they had to both mens or both ladies. I told her that I couldn’t see what the difference was. Finally I was exasperated and told her that both pairs belonged to me husband. I said “on the weekends he is a cross dresser.” She looked at me as if I were nuts (not far wrong) and I walked out with my claim check. When I came back a few days later, both pairs were cleaned and I got the sale price.
this is one of the weirdest threads i’ve seen so far. hard to believe it’s on a frum website.
Regarding the legal aspect, this idea isn’t new. There’s an episode on a lawyer TV show where two friends wanted to do this exact thing, and they won the case. After hearing both arguments the presiding judge said that once this kind of marriage is legal it is not the government’s job to investigate why two people wish to get married. After all, plenty of people out there marry for money or for show, but we don’t say their marriages are a fraud. As long as the marriage is legal the state does not feel the need to determine the motivation behind it. This is a fictional story but the show makes a convincing argument that such a ruling could occur and could certainly be defended.
As for the halachic aspect, I don’t know. I must say I am leaning toward maaris ayin, or chashad, because the Rambam says that if a man were to dress as a woman there would be chashad of this very issur, which is the reason behind the issur of lo yilbash. In my humble opinion, kal vachomer marriage.
This thread they keep open while the “long davening” one is closed. I protest!!!
perhaps some people with these ideas should have participated in todays parade
perhaps some people with these ideas should have participated in todays parade
I’m against it, but if you read the posts, even those who “have these ideas”, just want to prove that such marriages are a legal sham.
This thread made me laugh.
Thank you Popa.
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