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Health- Why is that a problem? Why is it better to live in a country with Goyim running the country than Frei Yidden running it? And we’re not comparing two equal countries… we’re comparing Eretz Yisroel to another country. So not only are you saying it’s better for some reason to live in a country run by Goyim than Frei Yidden, it’s SO much better that it even outweighs the benefits of living in Eretz Yisroel.
Queen, you’re on a roll making waaay too many assumptions just in this thread alone. Health is more likely double your age, not half your age. And he too has not received the education you attribute to him.
DY, you’re welcome.
simcha613: Don’t bother. Health isn’t changing his mind. Both you and health need to learn to respect another person’s view and live your life the way you see fit, without trying to convince others that your way is the best or only way to serve Hashem.
Joseph: Lets put away the age thing. You are right – I have no idea how old any of you are. (although he would be writing from an old age home if he were double my age 🙂
As for the chinuch he received, I can only go by his words.
Having said that, I would probably be good neighbors with any of you if you lived in my neighborhood. No offense to anyone. I can respect anyone’s view as long as it isn’t an issur min hatorah.
My point being, respecting another person’s way of life is waaaay more important than trying to make people over to fit your view.
You’d have to be a centenarian if he’s half your age. 😉
simcha613 -“Health- Why is that a problem? Why is it better to live in a country with Goyim running the country than Frei Yidden running it? So not only are you saying it’s better for some reason to live in a country run by Goyim than Frei Yidden, it’s SO much better that it even outweighs the benefits of living in Eretz Yisroel”
That’s exactly what I’m saying! Why don’t you read the topic of “Tortured shtachim boys” and then come back?!?
Because Goyish governments never tortured Jews or murderers or terrorists before. I’m obviously not trying to validate the Israeli government if they did in fact torture these boys, but I don’t think that’s a difference between Goyim and Frei Jews.
Simcha613 -“Because Goyish governments never tortured Jews or murderers or terrorists before. I’m obviously not trying to validate the Israeli government if they did in fact torture these boys, but I don’t think that’s a difference between Goyim and Frei Jews”
It depends on the people. Right now, it isn’t good for Frum Jews. The US is better. It might change soon, even if Moshiach isn’t around the corner!
I find it upsetting that commenters cannot bring themselves to say “Israel” or “the State of Israel,” instead falling back on “Zionism” or “the Zionists.” It matches word-for-word the practice of Israel’s mortal enemies (who are your enemies too). Am I alone in noticing this and reacting?
Do you have a problem with the term “Eretz Yisroel”?
DaasYochid, I love Eretz Yisroel. Should this thread therefore be renamed “Is Eretz Yisroel still the yetzer hora?”
No.
Some of the biggest anti zionists lived in and/or loved Eretz Yisroel.
Also, I don’t see how that answered my question.
Health, how is the US better? Almost every day we read about some anti-Semitic attack. Not to mention the atmosphere on campuses – and a few years down the road these will be the people in professional positions
“The Pro Zionists have made yishuv Eretz Yisrael into the first and foremost mitzvah in the Torah.”
Well the first Rashi in the Torah does say that the first 61 chapters in the Torah are primarily to remind ourselves that the Land of Israel is ours.
And without the State of Israel there would be essentially no Jews in the Land of Israel today. At its worst the State is Israel is as good as any non-Jewish government.
“It matches word-for-word the practice of Israel’s mortal enemies (who are your enemies too).”
This Coffee Room contains some of the most unfair slanderous attacks on the State of Israel in the entire internet — more strident even than neo-Nazi sites like Stormfront.
DaasYochid, I ask that the State of Israel be referred to by its name. Leave it to the Arabs and the antisemites to choke on that expression and call the state “Zionism” or “the Zionists,” as if it were an ideology that happens to have an air force.
Again I ask you: what’s wrong with using the term “Eretz Yisroel”?
charliehall: “Well the first Rashi in the Torah does say that the first 61 chapters in the Torah are primarily to remind ourselves that the Land of Israel is ours.”
I am not implying that it is not a mitzvah in the torah chas veshalom. As a matter of fact, my brother in law who is a dayan in Minchas Yitzchok Jerusalem, told me that for a person who lives in Eretz Yisrael, you can’t simply leave, you have to have a reason, like a shidduch, health reasons or parnossah. What I am saying is that every mitzvah in the torah is precious. You can’t pick and choose the ones you like. The point of Zionism was that by living in Eretz Yisrael, you can discard the rest of the Torah.
There are different mitzvos that different segments of klal yisrael are more makpid on them. Frum Zionists are makpid on Yishuv Eretz Yisrael, other segments chose, limud HaTorah, or Tznius, or Chesed.
My point being that you can’t choose 1 mitzva out of 613 make it your pet project and then expect every yid in klal yisrael to adopt that particular mitzvah as their pet project. There are 12 Shevatim in klal yisrael.
DY- I don’t think he thinks there is anything wrong with Eretz Yiroel. That is, after all, the name of the land. I think his point is, that sometimes it seems like people are going out of their way to avoid saying the State of Israel as if they are trying very hard not to acknowledge its existence.
DY
For those of us who are english speakers, We tend to use Israel over Eretz Yisroel just because thats they way we speak. We also usually say Jerusalem and not Yerushamlim
I am sure most Israelis say Artzoat Hbris and not United States
It’s not a matter of not acknowledging that the political entity exists, but why would I refer to it by its secular political name when I can call it Eretz Yisroel? This he objects to?
ZD, if I call it Yerushalayim (which I do), would you object? Would Naftush object?
I dont object to you calling Jerusalem, Yerushalim especially if you use more hebraisms.
Ill admit It can be confusing, I was once trying to get to Antwerp and the train said Anvers. I didnt know that Anvers was the french word for Antwerp
Avi K -“Health, how is the US better? Almost every day we read about some anti-Semitic attack. Not to mention the atmosphere on campuses”
It depends where you live! Where I live, it’s safer than Yerushalyim. Stop trying to push Israel as a safe place. The Zionist government, with their policies, have made it much worse than even 20 years ago!
Zionism shouldn’t be necessary if you observe mitzvas. Supplementing Hashem’s Torah with an -ism implies that the Torah’s philosophy is lacking in some way and needs supplementation.
That being said, the Zionists who go pitch their tent in dangerous areas in Israel may be misguided, but they are our brothers and sisters and we are obligated to love them and help protect them from the Arabs who want to spill all Jewish blood.
The bloodthirsty, savage, fascist, Islamic terrorists who go by the moniker “Palestinians” are the enemies of every Jew, and trying to appease them by throwing Zionist Jews into their claws and fangs will get us nowhere. Jewish sects who blindly teach their children to hate Zionists (and I’ve seen it too) are even more misguided than the Zionists.
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