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I was asked by a lot of people, therefore i’m sending a list of IV Center’s provided by our heroic Chevra Hatzolah.
<-strong-><-em->As a reminder, please discuss with your Rabbe/Rav AND Doctor regarding your fasting, taking your medications, and/or about taking IV (Intravenous) fluids.</-strong-></-em->
<-strong->Williamsburg:</-strong->
On Yom Kipur:
<-blockquote->ODA, 14 Heyward St. – from 10:00am till 4:00pm</-blockquote->
<-blockquote->Quality Health Center, 432 Bedford Ave. – from 12:00pm till 4:00pm</-blockquote->
For more info and for house calls please call Chevra Hatzalah special line: 718-534-5050
<-strong->Boro Park:</-strong->
Erev Yom Kipur (Starting the IV line):
<-blockquote->Bobov Shul, 1538 48th St. – from 1:00pm from 6:00pm</-blockquote->
On Yom Kipur
<-blockquote->Bobov Shul, 1538 48th St. – from 8:00am from 7:00pm</-blockquote->
<-blockquote->Belz Shul, 1321 43rd St. – from 8:00am from 7:00pm</-blockquote->
<-blockquote->Statcare, 1153 58th St. – from 8:00am from 7:00pm</-blockquote->
<-blockquote->Bobov Shul, 1721 58th St. – from 8:00am from 7:00pm</-blockquote->
For more info and for house calls please call Bobov Bikur Cholim: 718-851-2500
<-strong->Monsey:</-strong->
Please call: Hatzolah 845-425-1600
<-strong->New Square:</-strong->
Please call: 845-659-5886
<-strong->Montreal:</-strong->
Please call: Refuah V’Chesed, 514-357-2167 Ext. #8
Have an easy fast!!!
Not sure what the OP is about. A person who needs an IV started is usually a choleh sh’yesh bo sakana in which case, what’s the shaileh? Are you speaking about folks who take regular infusions like for chemo?
If a person is not really sick, just very hungry or thirsty, maybe feeling a little head-achy, An IV is cheating. Yeah, it lo c’derech achilah but, c’mon! It says v’anisem es nafshoseichem. your supposed to feel a little crummy.
Another real cheat I’ve heard is coffee fiends using caffein suppositories to get their “fix”.
Redleg: Poskim have ruled on this, you know, and many say that it’s completely fine as it’s not achilah (an exception is R’ Moshe). If someone asks a shailah and is given the go-ahead then why would it be cheating?
Yes Poskim have ruled on this, and yes, as I mentioned above, it is not “eating” but what about the assei? I think me and R’ Moshe, ZTL are on the same page about this. If a person has a legitimate medical reason, as determined by his or her doctor and competent rabbinic authority, to be oiver the assei, mutav, but just being uncomfortable, even very uncomfortable, doesn’t seem to me to be sufficient to be doche. And the less said about caffein suppositories, the better.
As soon as someone asks you for a psak, tell them that.
(This is not meant to be offensive at all- there are definitely rabbanim who say no when asked about IVs. But the fact that a very large number says yes doesn’t mean that they’re unnecessarily meikil just because it would seem so intuitively.)
You will notice that I qualified my post with phrases like “I think” and “it seems to me”. The above posts are are my opinion. Nothing posted on this blog by anybody should be taken as psak halacha. My views on the matter apply to me. If you agree, fine. if not, also fine. Gemar chasima tova.
Anyone with a medical condition so serious that it necessitates getting IV fluids, is surely a sakanas nefashos case. I cannot imagine a rov thinking otherwise. It is not achila. One cannot just on a whim get an IV somewhere.
Oomis, that’s what I said in my first post/
I know this is an old thread but I was looking for something else and came across it.
The comments above are grossly mistaken. There are minor conditions that require one to be well hydrated and the person is not a sakana without it.
What if someone does not have a colon and is prone to dehydration. They are not a choleh sheyesh bo sakana? But they still may need fluids to prevent dehydration and potential Uti or kidney infections.
What about patients who receive non critical infusions such as iron or biologics ( remicade…)
It is not as simple as it is made to be.
Furthermore, R, Moshe ztl does not Chas veshalom need out haskama and our agreement.
If someone needs fluids on yom kippur, and refuses a drink, you don’t give him an IV. You simply let the fool die. Putting an IV in is an issur melacha d’oraisah.
PBA – “You simply let the fool die.”
I’d assume you’re joking. But there are cases that you’d be right. If the pt. wasn’t in danger until it was too late. Btw, I’ve put in lines for pts. on Erev Yom Kippur.
What’s wrong with caffeine suppositories?
Putting an IV in is an issur melacha d’oraisah.
I would think d’rabbonon, but regardless, his foolishness shouldn’t change the fact that it’s pikuach nefesh.
DY – “it’s pikuach nefesh.”
Not all cases are “pikuach nefesh”, we all need fluids every day, but most of us fast anyway!
The case referred to was a case of pikuach nefesh, where the patient was a fool for refusing to drink.
I would think d’rabbonon, but regardless, his foolishness shouldn’t change the fact that it’s pikuach nefesh.
It certainly does. The guy who is subject to pikuach nefesh isn’t allowed to decide that he doesn’t want to do any issurim so someone else should do issurim instead.
I’d assume you’re joking. But there are cases that you’d be right. If the pt. wasn’t in danger until it was too late. Btw, I’ve put in lines for pts. on Erev Yom Kippur.
I’m not joking at all.
Of course he’s not allowed to, but neither are you allowed to let him die for that.
In fact you are chayav skila if you do not let him die.
You make him drink.
RY23, true, you’d have to try to force it down his throat. Assuming that (or similar option) was not possible, you’d be oiver on lo sa’amod all dam reiecha if you didn’t give him IV.
Popa, which melachah would he be oiver on? I think chaburah would be melachah she’einah tzrichah l’gufah.
PBA – “The guy who is subject to pikuach nefesh isn’t allowed to decide that he doesn’t want to do any issurim so someone else should do issurim instead”
Lets get it straight, you said it’s P.N., so anyone who is able to help – must! If he (the pt.) can’t or won’t, s/o else should. Many times pts. have to be restrained in order to treat them.
DY – “RY23, true, you’d have to try to force it down his throat.”
You can try to convince him to drink, but you can’t Force him. If you try to “force it down his throat”, you might kill him by causing him to choke!
Could be. I was speaking from a halachic perspective, but I’ll defer to you medically.
I believe Rov Elyashiv tried it one year towards his final years and thought it was a little too easy for himself personally because it took away any hunger.
Lets get it straight, you said it’s P.N., so anyone who is able to help – must! If he (the pt.) can’t or won’t, s/o else should. Many times pts. have to be restrained in order to treat them.
If this guy is committing suicide, I need to be mechalel Yom Kippur to save him? I don’t agree.
Popa, if you saw someone about to jump off a bridge, you wouldn’t be mechallel Shabbos to save him?
Re: chaburah.
See M.B. 316:30 that many cases are mekalkel and only d’rabbobon. I think this would fit that category.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14171&st=&pgnum=257&hilite=
Popa, if you saw someone about to jump off a bridge, you wouldn’t be mechallel Shabbos to save him?
I don’t think his position, in a case where the guy is practically a meizid, necessitates saying the same in a case where the person is mentally distraught.
DY, that very MB says hakazat dam is m’sakein.
This isn’t hakazas dam.
Popa, if you saw someone about to jump off a bridge, you wouldn’t be mechallel Shabbos to save him?
Not unless he had the din of a shoteh. You would?
I would.
As posted above, most places that did IVs only did it after making sure that the person consulted with their doctor as well as their rav.
People that are not able to fast do not get IV,IV fluids is just normal saline not other nutrients that they need.
Its mainly done to help people that would otherwise fast, yet have a difficult time fasting, keeping them hydrated makes it easier for them to fast.
Popa, in this case the patient is not refusing to drink. he has a medical condition that makes it hard for him to drink. he needs the line placed to get the proper nutrients.
remember that drinking on yom kippur is asur deorisa as well, its just that when someone’s life is in danger either a) there is a mitzva to be mechalel and save him or b) the mitzva is temporarily voided while you do what you need to do to save him
if someone is severely dehydrated, forcing them to drink is actually dangerous. but if one is at such a point of dehydration than they need to be hospitalized either way
If someone is in such a severe condition that they need IV fluids, it is ASUR to ask a shilah — you give them the fluids! Pikuach nefesh trumps Yom Kippur! By seeking out a rabbi to ask a shilah you are further endangering the life of a Jew!!!!
This YK I saw two doctors order a woman who was faint to drink water. A rabbi oversaw the entire thing and did not interfere.
” if you saw someone about to jump off a bridge, you wouldn’t be mechallel Shabbos to save him?”
I would be mechallel everything except forbidden relations, idolatry, and shedding blood!!! This isn’t a shilah!!!!!!
You guys do realize that the original post was not about actually INSERTING the IV line on Yom Kippur, right? And there may be non Jews working on YK to hook up the IV fluids.
These are done I assume for patients, pregnant women or the elderly that know in advance that they will have significant hardship and perhaps endanger themselves by fasting yet would rather not drink — even though some may give them a heter to do so. It’s planned so actual chillul Y”T is avoided and Hatzolah members are saved from running (driving) to so many emergencies.
DY, I know it’s not, but is there any reason to differentiate between the two?
Of course. Hakazas dam is the intentional loss of blood for a tikkun, and while the IV itself is certainly a tikkun, the inevitable loss of blood is of no benefit and is in fact a kilkul.
I’m thinking now that it might indeed be d’Oraisa. The practitioner needs to see blood return to know that the vein has been properly accessed, so even though you don’t actually need the blood, you need to see the bleeding, so it’s a tikkun.
dy, that would make it a ????? ????? ????? ?????, not a ?????.
That’s actually what I originally said, but it seems that bleeding is inherently bad, so unless there’s a tikkun, it’s mekalkel. That nafka mina is that even according to the shittah that ???”? is chayav, mekalkel is pattur.
PBA – “If this guy is committing suicide, I need to be mechalel Yom Kippur to save him? I don’t agree”
Don’t be an Ipschah Mistavrah! This isn’t a case of suicide. Most people don’t know how sick they are. They should treat him even on YK!
Mammele – “These are done I assume for patients, pregnant women or the elderly that know in advance that they will have significant hardship and perhaps endanger themselves by fasting yet would rather not drink — even though some may give them a heter to do so. It’s planned so actual chillul Y”T is avoided and Hatzolah members are saved from running (diving) to so many emergencies”
You got the first part right, not the second! Ya know about V’nishmartem Meod etc.?
Being that I am very familiar with the process of most sites that were doing IV, some had the IV lock inserted before Yom Kipur, others had a non Jew establish the line on Yom Kipur.
No one had a Yid establish the line on Yom Kippur, most poskim hold that creating IV access is a ???????? and any patient that is sick enough that requires IV should probably not be fasting.
Getting flashback while creating IV confirms IV placement so its not really a mekalkel.
PBA:
If this guy is committing suicide, I need to be mechalel Yom Kippur to save him? I don’t agree.
What if he doesn’t realize he’s committing suicide?
dy, from .??? ??
??”? ?”? ????? ?? ?????.
it seems that whether when there’s a side ????? it’s still considered ?????, is ???? on whether ????? ????? ????? ????? is ????. Therefore, in such a case, where the ????? is in the IV but not inherent in the ???? if you hold ????? ????? ????? ????? is ???? it also wouldn’t be considered ????? because the fact that he’s doing it for constructive purposes is enough to render it ????.
Health: exactly which part do you disagree with? I never said anyone was right for not fasting, but nonetheless some people think that way – i.e. they can’t consider eating on YK despite it being the right thing to do.
Mammele – “Health: exactly which part do you disagree with?”
The second part; and I posted that. I posted my reason. Your reasons are Not reasons!
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