Jews Owning Dogs?

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  • #1013089

    Nobody
    Member

    I have seen many visually impaired frum people who have got a new lease of life as they have a Guide Dog. If dogs were not permitted these people would most certainly not have them.

    There are many reasons why a person may own a dog such as land and property security etc.

    I will not give a personal opinion here other than to say each to his own.

    #1013090

    notpashut
    Member

    The Big One,

    Thank you.

    #1013091

    Feif Un
    Participant

    No, they don’t allow it. They say you shouldn’t have it. If you absolutely must have it, for work purposes, then you can, but only with a filter. Even then, it should be avoided as much as possible.

    As for me, my Rav doesn’t assur it. The YU community doesn’t have any such ban.

    #1013092

    Will Hill
    Participant

    feif, That is narishkeit and incorrect. If the site is kosher it can be accessed. The takanos would not prohibit a site like ywn. According to your abusrdity, ywn itself should not be allowed to exist. Read the takano again. If you’ve seen a different version that assurs ywn, please post it verbatim. It doesn;’t exist.

    The only reason you may have claimed that is to knock off another posters legitimate point, that you couldn’t counter, so you came up with this baloney.

    #1013094

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Why wasn’t my link to a pdf of the Lakewood takanos published? It supported what I wrote here. What’s wrong with it?

    #1013095

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Will Hill, if the takanos dont prohibit kosher sites, why not just issue a takana against non-kosher sites?

    #1013096

    myshadow
    Member

    noitallmr and dd ur so lucky! my mother is petrified of dogs but I wish I could have one! Maybe when I get married lol

    #1013097

    Feif Un
    Participant

    http://yeshivaorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2005/09/lakewoods-powerful-gathering-against.html

    This was a blog which YW Editor used to wrote on, so please post this message.

    “Leading off was the rosh yeshiva Rabbi Malkiel Kotler who spoke about the necessity of erecting “walls”, safeguarding yourself and your children. “Don’t let cracks in that wall; don’t open any door!

    Lakewood’s beloved mashgiach Rabbi Matisyahu Solomon ended off bemoaning how our generation is dancing with the satan and- “he’s spinning out of control with much excitement”, having gotten the internet in our homes.

    Any heter, exclaimed the mashgiach, to posses the internet for parnasah is “B’Deyeved of B’Deyeved, adding: “I’d like to say something radical: maybe it is better to live in poverty than to give away your neshama- bring the internet in your house!”.

    He warned everyone : “It has no place in a jewish home”,… “One picture can ruin a child for life.”,… “You don’t give children keys to your car”!”

    That was said by the asifa. Even to earn a living, use of the internet was questionable. You want me to think they ok it with a filter?

    http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/takanos_lakewood.pdf

    There is a link to the takanos put out in Lakewood. It says that if you must have the internet for work only, you need a filter. It says nothing about allowing it to be used for non-work issues, even with a filter.

    #1013098

    noitallmr
    Participant

    myshadow- im”y Bekorov!

    #1013099

    Chuck Schwab
    Participant

    Feif Un,Where did you learn evasion so well? For the umpteenth time you are being told that nowhere in the takana does it ban a site such as yw that is filtered. It does NOT ban filtered access for use on a Torah site, or personal e-mail, etc. even if it is not for business use. Nowhere does it say anything of the like.

    10 people already pointed this out to you already, so go twist the words in the takana yet again…

    #1013100

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Read it again, in section A.1:

    “Current available filtering and restriction systems do not provide adequate protection and therefore the following takanos apply even in regard to computers with filtered or restricted Internet access.”

    A bit later on:

    “Parents may not have the Internet in the home unless it is l’tzorech parnasah, and have obtained written permission from one of the designated Rabbonim.”

    So, it seems to me that there is no heter to use the Internet for a site like YWN – only for work. Basically, what you’re saying is, if you have it for work, it’s ok to use the internet for other things also. In effect, only someone who needs the internet for work is allowed to see YWN, other people aren’t allowed – the Rabbonim stated straight out that filtering software isn’t good enough, and you can’t have the internet with a filter if you don’t need it for work. Is that right?

    #1013101

    Josh31
    Participant

    How did we get from dogs to the Lakewood Internet Ban?

    About dogs, I personally don’t care for them.

    But apparently the Torah presupposes dogs being around in a Torah society to have a way of disposing slaughtered animals that fail the inspection for “Tarfus”.

    I believe the sheep business needs them.

    Now I get it: If you want to avoid the internet in your daily business (and do not have a rich father in law to support you in Kollel), then you become a shepherd and get a dog!!!

    #1013102

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    My sister got a “heter” from the Lakewood rabbanim because she is deaf and its her primary form of communication with family and friends.

    I question this only because if the internet is that bad, why would this be acceptable? Technically, she can use a TTY/VCO system which is annoying, but if the internet “has no place in a Jewish home” how can this be allowed?

    I’m not complaining because it makes communicating with my sister much easier, but just curious why this is allowed.

    #1013103

    A lengthy and detailed article about halachic issues with pets can be found here. http://www.daat.ac.il/DAAT/english/halacha/jachter_1.htm

    As the article points out, besides for the fact that most of the Gemara’s stringencies regarding dogs tend to hinge on the dog being “evil”, there is at least one instance, in Bava Kama, where the problem is only with security. It says that if you chain your dog so that he won’t damage property or frighten people, it’s completely permissible. Regarding other pets, the article cites two sugyas that have examples of children playing with birds and locusts. So apparently, having pets for recreational purposes (as opposed to service dogs) is fine.

    #1013104

    David S.
    Member

    The Shulchan Oruch 79:4 groups dog excrement together with pig excrement, and the Be’er Heitev says ‘Cursed is the Jew who grows pigs’

    The Mishna Berura is more meikel, grouping a BAD dog together with pigs

    Also, in Halacha, we know the concept of ‘water that is not drinkable by the standards of a dog’ for water that is posul or kosher for netilas yadayim

    #1013106

    David S.
    Member

    The Be’er Heitev hates dogs 🙂

    The Mishnah Berurah likes nice dogs

    #1013107

    David S.
    Member

    ames you are right. The Be’er heitev probably meant animal excrement th

    #1013108

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    Anyone that doesn’t have the patience to read through this thread, I suggest you read the first few posts, get the feel of the argument and then just read feivel’s posts- they are for the books! I never heard him so outwardly expressive before. It’s great and he proves a very good point- as usual

    feivel- we’d love to see more of this side of you 🙂

    #1013109

    Feif Un
    Participant

    You can say about any dog, “But it’s trained – it’s a nice dog!”

    Most of the time there is something on the news about a dog attacking its owner or any other person, everyone says “But it was such a nice dog! I never would have thought it would attack anyone!” Then, of course, the animal psychologists get involved – they try to figure out why the dog attacked. Maybe it felt its owner was being threatened. Maybe it felt threatened itself.

    The fact is, all these so-called “safe” dogs are just as capable of hurting someone.

    #1013110

    feivel
    Participant

    “feivel- we’d love to see more of this side of you :)”

    i appreciate it

    but i have learned to be as quiet as possible here

    #1013111

    areivimzehlazeh
    Participant

    we’ve noticed that you’ve been “burned” and now keep most of your thoughts to yourself. That’s why I’m telling you to “fof zei un”! It doesn’t matter what they think- you can have as much say as them.

    bring it on full force!

    #1013114

    anonymisss
    Participant

    ames, obviously you’re not referring to me. right?

    ~a~

    #1013115

    Mods, what was wrong with my post?

    Please review the rules of the CR

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rules-of-the-ywn-coffee-room-please-read

    #1013116

    Point taken. Sorry.

    #1013117

    squeak
    Participant

    feivel

    Member

    “feivel- we’d love to see more of this side of you :)”

    i appreciate it

    but i have learned to be as quiet as possible here

    Olam hafuch hu

    #1013118

    bamorga
    Participant

    There is a rashi in the gemara pesachim which says every town should have a dog. Must be that it is not only permissible but obligated.

    #1013119

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I find all the anti-dog posts appalling. Overall, the species has been kind to humanity, and as humans we are required to respect dogs and to allow others to keep them.

    #1013120

    I. M. Shluffin
    Participant

    Never in all my life have I ever heard “issur” and “dog” in the same sentence. Call me ignorant, but I’ve never heard that a person can’t have a pet dog. Call me biased, though, cus I have a dog. Who happens to be uber-cute. And serves a holy purpose in our house:

    Thanks to our dog, we’ve realized that the bar for ???? ?????? ??? is extremely low (our dog will eat anything but lox and pesach dog food);

    Thanks to our dog, our family has learned the halachos of walking/petting/picking up a dog on Shabbos;

    Thanks to our dog, we’ve made friends with every other person in our neighborhood who owns a dog;

    Thanks to our dog, our kitchen floor rarely needs cleaning.

    Thanks to our dog, we rarely feel lonely – there’s always a puppy at the end of a tough day 🙂

    Thanks to our dog, I’ve learned how to act more pleasantly with humans, like my dog does. Sometimes. Seriously – I’ve learned from my dog’s middos. I’ve also learned how to deal with kids by dealing with and training my dog. Don’t judge – there’s good stuff you can learn from training a dog. Patience, requisite punishment, always end with a smile and a hug (or a tummy-rub), etc.

    Soften up, everyone! I’m glad the posts have become more dog-appreciative than 4 years ago.

    #1013121

    Sam2
    Participant

    I.M. Shluffin: There’s a Chochmas Adam who thinks there’s an Issur of Chukas Akum to own 2 dogs (he says that having 1 can be good though as it helps teach you to be responsible).

    Also, the Gemara is quite clear that it’s Assur to own a vicious dog because it’s Damim B’veisecha.

    #1013122

    rkefrat
    Participant

    Whenever I see someone walking their dog on Shabbos I think to myself that Shabbos is far too holy a day to share it with a dog.

    #1013123

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Shabbos is far too holy a day to share it with a dog.”

    Ah, yes, ignore the halachah regarding proper treatment of animals in the interest of holiness. Reject the opportunity to perform mitzvot regarding the care of animals in the interest of holiness.

    I don’t think that this is what this week’s parsha is about.

    #1013124

    oomis
    Participant

    I would love to have a dog, but several family members are allergic and/or afraid of them. And yes, Shabbos is a holy day, BUT I have known some dogs who seemed to be holier than some people with whom I am acquainted. As Tzaar baalei chaim is a chiyuv, and dogs cannot legally be left off-leash in many places, they require being walked on Shabbos. My parents O”H had a dog very late in life (I think I recounted that story once before, and won’t do so now), and he was their fierce protector, utterly loyal devoted to all of us, loving, and intuitive when something was wrong. How many people can have that said about them???

    #1013125

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Charlie, you can accomplish that with a bird.

    #1013126

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    to me someone with a pet dog has a need for companionship, which shows that hes lacking in companionship, which shows he’s possibly got issues = most people with dogs are weird.

    #1013127

    .. and thanks to the numerous dog in the area (and their selfish / careless owners), I have to have my eyes always glued to the ground while walking outside near my home.

    #1013128

    nem621
    Member

    i own dogs and i feel bad when the dog wants me to pet it on shabos and to the best of my understanding i can’t maybe im wrong

    #1013129

    squeak
    Participant

    Get a shabbos goy to pet the dog.

    #1013130

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I think you are allowed to pet it. Find out. Just don’t lean on it or pick it up.

    #1013131

    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: According to the M”B petting is a problem. Many are Meikel though, especially for dogowners (that was the P’sak in my community growing up; I couldn’t touch my friends’ dogs but they could touch their own).

    #1013132

    writersoul
    Member

    Little Froggie: I used to have a neighbor with a bulldog who did not know what the word pooper-scooper meant. Luckily he moved away, and we can keep our eyes off the sidewalk.

    But trust me- the geese in the park are worse…

    #1013133

    Avi K
    Participant

    The only prohibition is owning a vicious dog. Even then if one needs it for protection it is permitted so long as it is properly tied up (Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 409:3 and see Rema). As for being muktzeh, Rav Moshe says (Iggrot Moshe Orach Chayim 5,22) that if one normally pets and plays with it this is its purpose and it is not muktzeh. However, Sepharadim may hold differently (see Shulchan Aruch Orech Chaim 308:45 with Rema and Mishna Berura seif katan 158 regarding playing with a ball).

    #1013134

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    There are more vicious people than vicious dogs. You are more likely to be bitten by a person than by a dog. Most dogs are friendly, some of them too much so, but most “vicious” dogs are not actually vicious but were abused by vicious humans and learned to hate humans altogether.

    By the way, one is permitted to own a vicious dog as long as it is confined.

    #1013135

    Sam2
    Participant

    rebyidd: That’s good for most breeds, but it’s hard to claim that a pit bull or a mostly-wolf husky (huskie?) is a domestic dog. In fact, the experts say that these breeds aren’t domesticable.

    #1013136

    nfgo3
    Member

    I’m thinking of starting a topic called “Jesse Owens’ Dogs.” Does anyone have any misinformation about that?

    #1013137

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    A mostly-wolf dog is a part-dog wolf, not a dog. And pit bulls are an exception with exceptions of its own.

    #1013138

    rkefrat
    Participant

    charliehall – in reponse to your post – there is no halacha that says that I must own a dog or any other animal. therefore if i dont own one I am not responsible for its well being. Tzaar Baal Chayim prevents me from abusing or torturing. so I prefer to spend my holy shabbos with family, friends, seforim, shul and a shabbos meal – not with a dog.

    #1013139

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    But let me and my spaniel(s?) live in peace.

    #1013140

    nfgo3
    Member

    Can anyone explain the difference between Jews owning dogs and a Jew-owning dog?

    #1013141

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    If you are allowed to help your animal walk because of Tzaar Baalei Chayim, why shouldn’t you be able to pet it as long as you don’t lift it?

    #1013142

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Some don’t hold of this Minhag of owning a dog and think of it as Chukos Hagoyim. Others say you can be Yotzei with fish. I’m trying to be Yotzei with money.

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