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  • #1698387

    jdf007
    Participant

    In other words, if you are an American Jew, maybe 5th, 6th or 7th generation where your parents didn’t practice religion at all, or the only thing they were practicing as were as Democrats, that’s what you have to follow? You cannot go into the Chabad? And to go further, if you have those rich parents that do belong to the Reform or Conservative synagogues, they seem to like to change their siddurs a little too often. So what are your options now? Considering this is the state of America, this “following your parents” ways shouldn’t be condoned.

    Second, I don’t know where this comparison of Chabad and Christians came from, except from someone who has never seen either. Since that is a golden example of an internet claim, let’s move on.
    Third, How can the Rebbe claim to be a Messiah while he was going around telling everyone what to do to hasten his arrival! What type of circular logic? Frankly, an interview with the Rebbe and a Moroccan Jew I read last week inspired me to read the Tanya. Essentially he said to print the book in Arabic to deter the Ishmalites power and hasten Moshiachs arrival. The Rebbe supported everyone around the world.

    4th, most of you wouldn’t like me, and yet here I am pointing out the six remembrances and the Chofetz Chaim. Remember what happened to Miriam on the way.
    Because by not doing so, this thread is shameful.

    #1698212

    RSo
    Participant

    Anyusername in numerous posts: “@rso your saying according to the second opinion in rashi:”

    I don’t know what you’re trying to say here but neither option in Rashi leaves it possible to say that anyone who has died, other than Daniel himself, can be mashiach. And even that is only according to the first explanation of Rashi.

    “explain this – why were they trying to find names of their teachers as the name moshiach???”

    I don’t know. Do you? As I wrote, you can interpret it your way but NONE OF THE MEFORSHIM say it explicitly. To tell us that that is obviously what they meant is wishful thinking. Btw, thanks for all the extra question marks. I can use them when I see lubavichers.

    “every generation has a nosi hador – it doesnt just stop ( if you KNOW what the definition of nosi hador is)”

    So you prove yourself right by saying something which you can’t back up. There is NO nossi hador. Who says there is? Oh, I forgot, the lubavicher rebbe said it…

    “We consider the Rebbe to be nosi hador based on our hergesh”

    Thank you for saying that. It now makes it all clear. Your entire belief system is based on what you feel. I suppose I should be thankful that you don’t have a hergesh the yoshke was nossi hador.

    “if you feel that your rov is the nosi hador -gezunterheit”

    No, it’s not “gezunterheit”, it’s xian.

    “nosi hador is moshiach shebidor”

    As attested to by whom? Let me guess…

    “are you gonna tell me that moshiach is only from the few ppl mentioned in the gemoro”

    No. But you certainly can’t say that based on the gemoro it’s the dead lubavicher rebbe. Btw, at the time Rebbi Yehudah Hanossi (Hador?) was still alive. And that’s what the gemoro is saying according to the fist opinion of Rashi.

    “have you ever learnt gemoro b4”

    If by “learnt gemoro” you mean distort it the way you and many others of your ilk do, then BORUCH HASHEM no. Never!

    “on Rav Shach zt”l, who had 10 times the amount of people at his levaya than the Rebbe
    So??
    Who said that’s what defines a nosi??”

    No one said that because there is no such thing as a nossi.

    #1698222

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    Wow I’m impressed with you

    You know how to distort history even better then Bryan Mark rigg
    He at least quotes a whole story you on the other hand took a line from his book that works for you
    Read page 168 in his book
    Where he total disagrees with you

    As I mentioned before if only you knew how much mesiras nefesh the 6th rebbe had you wouldn’t dare say such things

    You’ll bring me proof from historians. That didnt find anything. Does that mean it didnt happen??
    The making of a gadol has a very political agenda
    Your only proof may have been from bryan Mark rigg but as I said you took 1 line from what he said

    #1698372

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Here is a quote from Rabbi Manis Friedman . Is he arging on the Rebbe?
    “Who in fact died and who remained alive had nothing to do with the Nazis,” Rabbi Manis Friedman stated in a speech delivered in Melbourne in the 1980s. “Not a single Jewish child died because of the Nazis … they died in their relationship with God.”

    #1698214

    RSo
    Participant

    SHY in response to my claim that the lubavicher rebbe had NONE of the Rambam’s criteria for being bechezkas mashiach: “he definitely had some.
    Such as הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצות כדוד אביו.”

    Are you really claiming that he was hogeh beTorah as much as Dovid. I can’t disprove you, but I can pity you that you think so lowly of Dovid.

    But even aside from that, he still doesn’t fit the criteria because there is NO indication that Dovid was oviv.

    Lubavich claims that the Baal Hatanya was a direct descendant of Dovid Hamelech, although the sources for this claim are only lubavich sources. Your rebbe was ben achar ben from the Tzemach Tzedek who was a son of R Sholom Shachna Altshuler, and he was not a descendant – ben achar ben or otherwise – of the Baal Hatanya. So the much-publicized claim that the lubavicher rebbe is a descendant of Dovid Hamelech is meaningless for two reasons.
    1. Because we have no independent source saying that the Baal Hatanya was ben achar ben from Dovid.
    2. Even if we did, to be a candidate for moshiach you have to ben achar ben from Dovid, and the lubavicher rebbe has no such even supposed yichus.
    Although I suppose it is entirely possible that someone has proven the lubavicher rebbe’s yichus with a proof as strong as everything else that has been said about him.

    #1698350

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Milhouse, I quoted a biographer of theRayatz, Bryan Mark Rigg, who wrote a book about the Rayatz’s escape via a half-Jewish Nazi. Bryan wanted to see if the Rayatz paid it forward like Rav Kotler zt”l did. He was upset to find the Rayatz did not, mainly focusing his efforts on rescuing his library.

    The Joint Distribution Committe was functional in Shangahi. There were many Jews and refugees in Shangai. Rav kotler zt”l went around collecting money with his own sweat and blood, and used it the best way he saw how. That meant litvish talmidei chachomim who would rebuild the Torah world in America. The Rayatz should have focused on saving the Tomechei Temimim bochurim instead of his library. Blaiming Rav Kotler zt”l for spending his limited resources on the litvish instead of tomchei temimim bochurim is stupid. The Rayatz bears responsibility for their deaths, not Rav Kotler zt”l, who helped save 100,000 people through his efforts that the Rayatz condemned.

    #1698375

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Here is a direct source for what the Rebbe wrote about the Holocaust, showing he had the same views as Rav Shach zt”l and Rav Avigdor Miller zt”l, and what I showed his father-in-law said:
    On the subject of the Holocaust, the Rebbe wrote as follows: “It is clear that ‘no evil descends from Above,’ and buried within torment and suffering is a core of exalted spiritual good. Not all human beings are able to perceive it, but it is very much there. So it is not impossible for the physical destruction of the Holocaust to be spiritually beneficial. On the contrary, it is quite possible that physical affliction is good for the spirit” (“Mada Ve’emuna,” Machon Lubavitch, 1980, Kfar Chabad).

    Schneerson goes on to compare God to a surgeon who amputates a patient’s limb in order to save his life. The limb “is incurably diseased … The Holy One Blessed Be He, like the professor-surgeon…seeks the good of Israel, and indeed, all He does is done for the good…. In the spiritual sense, no harm was done, because the everlasting spirit of the Jewish people was not destroyed.”

    #1698444

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am not chabad nor do I agree with everything they do. However The Lubavicher Rebbe’s Shiluchus and Chabad houses all over the world probably make him the most important frum jew of the second half of the 20th Century. While building yeshivas in the US and Israel after the war were important and Igros moshe was also very important, to a certain extent those are much easier than telling people to go into the jewish wilderness without much money and build a commuinity and provide services (Like food) all at great personal cost like no schools for your kids and lack of kosher food for yourself. Anyone can make a Minyan in Lakewood, try to make a minyan in hickstown, Nebraska. Chabad will do it

    #1698410

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Lubavitchers: why do you snags hate us?
    Litvaks: We don’t hate you, but our poskim say you’re apikorsim/ ovdei avoda zara and we should stay away.
    Lubavitchers:
    Lubavitchers: Why do you snags hate us?

    #1698411

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Judaism considers it a lie when a random guy claims to be moshiach without bringing about anything resembling redemption. Chabad/Christianity argue with Judaism on this concept.

    #1698413

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    There’s another of the 6 zechiros- remember what happened in the desert with the eigel.
    There is no bigger toeles than telling Jews to avoid safeik avoda zara, and helping Jews who are currently nichshal r”l escape that.

    #1698449

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    This thread is now “we have a hergesh that the Rebbe was moshiach” vs “We have psak that Chabad is apikorsus”. Psak overrides boich svaros.

    #1698495

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Zahavasdad, “who did more to rebuild Yiddishkeit” is an interesting question and one worth discussing in a separate thread, which I will start iyh. But the question on the floor is “should an outsider join Chabad” which becomes no based on psak that it crosses theological red lines.

    #1698545

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Anyone can make a Minyan in Lakewood”
    Yeah? How do you think it got to be that way? Do you think Lakewood started off as a Chabad House?

    I don’t understand how a non Lubavitcher can guzzle so much of the Chabad cool-aid that they actually think it’s more miraculous for a Chabad house to service a handful of chilonim in some random town than it is for a Litvish or Chassidishe gadol to be able to build a gleaming frum metropolis in rural NJ or NY. How can you think hundreds of failed outposts is a greater service than a handful of successful communities?

    #1698615

    LA boy
    Participant

    by hundreds of failed outposts do you mean the places where they help irreligious Jews become religious jews and help the o.t.d. sons and daughters of different litvishe roshei yeshiva and rabbonim become frum again and stop doing drugs or are you referring to something else? (As a lubavitcher with several relatives that work as chaplains in the prison system I know what I’m talking about)
    Everyone hates chabad until it’s their own child that runs off to a 3rd world country to marry a goy or shmad and the only frum person within an hour drive is a lubavitcher who can try to convince them out of it then suddenly they love chabad
    If you want more info on how many people including children of “gedolim” chabad has helped get off drugs etc. Try speaking to chabad of salt lake city Utah which has one of the biggest drug rehab centers in the country
    P.s. on the topic of Moshiach I saw a great line recently I think it was in ami or mishpacha don’t remember exactly which one “you don’t have to be chabad to want Moshiach but you have to want Moshiach to be a Frum yid”

    #1698625

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Moshiach is an ikkar haemunah. It’s the 12th. Worshipping a false moshiach doesn’t mean you believe in it more- it just means you believe in the other oikkarei emuna less.

    By this standard, the followers of Shabsai Tzvi were better than the misnagdim who rejected him back then. Obviously wrong.

    #1698628

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Chabad houses are not relevant to the question here and amount to a red herring. There are many Christian hospitality programs too. the diyun is if they are within the fold or out of the fold. If the poskim say they are out of the fold, then the Chabad houses are irrelevant

    #1698632

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Moshiach is a big inyan but Lubavitch “passeled” it
    Eretz Yisroel is a big inyan but the Zionists “passeled” it
    Learning Tanach is a big inyan but the maskilim “passeled” it

    #1698648

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    Your right I forgot about that but the frum ppl who r frum it doesn’t make a dif if they’re chassidish or not

    #1698772

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    “Moshiach is a big inyan but Lubavitch “passeled” it
    Eretz Yisroel is a big inyan but the Zionists “passeled” it
    Learning Tanach is a big inyan but the maskilim “passeled” it”

    Mikvah was a big Inyan but Satmar “passeled” it.
    Gemarah was a big Inyan but BMG “passeled” it.
    Kashrus was a big Inyan but the OU “passeled” it.

    Tanach is so treif I don’t say the Haftorah on Shabbos.
    Eretz Yisroel is so treif I join Pro Palestine rallies.
    Moshiach is so horrible I hope he never comes.

    #1698867

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    Regarding Shanghai
    When the Rebbe Rayatz came to America, he launched his own Va’ad Hatzalah to save Chabad Yeshiva Bochurim, and after being approached by the Va’ad Hatzalah and promised that the Chabad Bochurim will be recipients of the funds, the Rebbe Rayatz closed his own Va’ad Hatzalah and told his donors to donate to the main Va’ad Hatzalah.

    However, unbeknownst to the Rebbe Rayatz, the Va’ad Hatzalah, which was controlled by Rabbi Aharon Kotler and Rabbi Avraham Kalmanowitz (Rosh Yeshiva of Mir), made a policy to only help Bochurim of Litvische Yeshivos. They sent the money to Shanghai, addressed to Rabbi Meir Ashkenazi, with orders that the money be given to everyone aside for Chabad Rabbi Meir Ashkenazi did not heed their directions, and used part of the funds for the Chabad Yeshiva students, knowing that the funds were given by donors who wished that Chabad students enjoy it too.

    When this was discovered, the Va’ad Hatzalah stopped sending money through Rabbi Ashkenazi, and instead sent it directly to the Mir Yeshiva stationed in Shanghai. As a result, Bochurim from Chabad Yeshiva, Amshinov Yeshiva and Yeshivas Chachmei Lublin were left to starve, and some of them died.

    While this was going on, Rabbi Aharon Kotler called Rabbi Meir Ashkenazi to a Din Torah, asking for the funds that Rabbi Ashkenazi used for Chabad students during the war, and demanding he pay it back.

    When the Din Torah took place, Rabbi Ashkenazi presented his claims to the Beis Din, and the Beis Din found that Rabbi Aharon Kotler actually owes money to Rabbi Ashkenazi for risking his life to get the money from the embassy which was extremely dangerous cuz it was illegal to send money from the u.s. to Japan due to the fact that they were in war at the time.

    You can find letters online regarding what was happening at the time I will post a link in the next post
    _______

    @rso you really never opened a gemora b4 cause ur arguing with even simple gemoro

    Obviously it’s a hergesh. nowhere in halacha it says “the lubavicher rebbe is moshiach”
    Rather based the criteria of moshiach we feel the rebbe fits this if you feel otherwise that’s ok (I think I said this a few times already and as long as no one is going against halacha I don’t see why anyone should care who we feel is moshiach)

    If you thought it was a halacha. I’m sorry

    #1698980

    RSo
    Participant

    Anyuser, where is there justification for saying that someone is, will be, may be, moshiach can be based on a hergesh.

    The entire hergesh thing in cases like this is “I want, therefore it is.” There is NO place in Yiddishkeit for this, and it is what leads to apikorsus.

    I know of one case of hergesh in halocho, and it is tomei, vd”l.

    #1699094

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    It’s not a hergesh. The Rebbe said he was moshiach in his basi legani due to being the 7th Rebbe, then dropped hints about it for years, and the gullible ones believed it.
    You are believing exactly what you are brainwashed to believe.
    It’s kinda funny to see a group go nuts over the 12th ikkar but make a cholent out of every other ikkar by calling it “chassidus”. Hashem has no guf? Well chassidus so atzmus. Only Hashem runs the world? Well atzmus so tzaddik gozer so the Rebbe runs the world. You can only daven to Hashem? Well atzmus so you can daven to the Rebbe. Moshe was the biggest navi? Well the Rebbe is the ispashtusa demoshe and even bigger than Moshe because the Rebbe can’t make mistakes. Oh and thanks to atzmus everything the Rebbe touches had elokus.

    All you need to do is substitute “eigel” for “Rebbe” for leitznusa deavoda zara. Whereas in Crown Heights they say “der Rebbe vet helfn” just say “der eigel vet helfn”. etc etc

    #1699182

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    Before, u may have been talking logic now it’s just utter nonsense

    #1699235

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Yes, Lubavitch teirutzim for why they aren’t violating ikkarei emunah are nonsense. Maskim.

    And that is why you stay away from Chabad.

    One more name to add to the list of those who called Lubavitch Avoda Zara: Rav Hershel Shachter shlit”a. You can hear him express this opinion in his shiur on segulos and superstitions.
    But you are still a Jew and I love you, and hope you will return to the fold one day.

    #1699402

    Chossid
    Participant

    *how

    #1699401

    Chossid
    Participant

    Wow do people have so much time posting?

    #1699405

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Ein od milvado. Hashem alone runs the world, and it is only fitting to Daven to Hashem and make requests of Him. I pray that one day you will be able to accept the truth. Kol tuv

    #1699459

    Chossid
    Participant

    LerntminTayrah
    Again before you name call us, please go through all the eikrei hoamuna and explain exactly why we are violating it.

    We learn in chassidus all day what atmus is, (at least what we can understand), and ein oit melvadoi.

    So if you have claims on us, and claim you know what these concepts mean and we are violating them, then let me ask you some questions.

    What does אין עוד מלבדו mean?
    How does it make sense to you, if we see a world which goes against Hashem? So much rah…..

    What does atzmus mean?

    What’s the concept of a Rebbe?
    Why should do we ask brochois from a Rebbe, if can just do it straight to Hashem?
    Why do we daven by a kaver of a Rebbe, or godol? Seemingly we should just do it in shul to Hashem himself without an intermediate.
    Why did Hashem need a Moishe Rabbiu to take the yeddin out of mitzraim and Gave the Torah through Moishe? And heard part of the eseres hadibrois through him?

    And you haven’t answered my past questions.

    And again if you really cared and you’re a real frum yid, you would explain how special litvish is, and that there’s no reason to go to Chabad.
    But instead you like to spread loshen horoah about chabad with your messed up facts.
    Very interesting.
    Go ask your fellow neighbors which some are very respected in the litvish/ chassidish world, why they came Chabad, why they go to the ohel, why they learn chassidus, it might shed some light on you. And maybe you will change your opinion.

    And btw a big percentage of chabad were originally not chabad, (both of my grandparents aren’t originally chabad,)

    A freilechin Purim.

    #1699657

    couldbe
    Participant

    How did chossid post his correction before posting the mistake? And if he knew he was about to make a mistake why didn’t he just fix it first?

    Something weird is going on! Definitely in the Purim spirit.

    #1699713

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    When I was younger, there used to be kosher lepesach peanut oil and more matza meal products. The Jewish Observer had pictures of women. Now the products have disappeared, and women are nary to be seen in frum magazines. Why? Because manufacturers gear themselves to be kosher for all to make the biggest profit possible. Jewish magazines exclude women so as to become acceptable to even the frummest of families. So why should Yiddishkeit be any different? If you know that many gedolim consider your yiddishkeit to be yehareig ve’al yaavor, doesn’t it make sense to drop it in favor of a more acceptable form of yiddishkeit? One that retains many elements of yours but without the safeik tarfus? EG neochassidus or similar.

    #1699715

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    If litvaks are wrong, no big deal. We find out who moshiach is when he comes and builds the beis hamikdosh and accept him, whoever he is. We had a right, based on the Rambam , to reject chabad so we followed Torah. But for you, the stakes of being wrong are much higher. According poskim you are oveir avoda zara. Why take such big risks in damaging your neshama?

    #1699706

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Chossid, you ask some very good questions. I refer you to the Rem”a by hilchos erev rosh hashana that paskens that you should NOT daven to the meis in the kever, rather you daven to Hashem. Moshe Rabbeinu was Hashem’s shaliach, but the Jews didn’t daven to Moshe- they davened to Hashem. A rebbe teaches you the way of Hashem, but like the Rambam says in hilchos avoda zara, davening to anyone other than Hashem is avoda zara. I’m not a gadol so it’s not my job to know the answers to all the questions. But I do know that gedolim called chabad as it is today avoda zara so I should stay away. You can passel a few of them but you can’t passel all of them. Safeik avoda zara lechumra.

    I feel bad for you, Chossid. Since your grandparents weren’t Chabbad you’re not gezhe (The Lubavitch word for meyuchas, ie the families which were from Russia) , which restricts your ability to get good jobs within chabad. If you’re going to drink the Koolaid (Flavorade really but Koolaid is more popular , sorry Jimmy Jones of Jonestown) you should at least earn the good job for it.

    #1699727

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Chossid, what is also clear is that your view of Moshe Rabbeinu comes via the distirted Chabad view pushed in the sichos. Chabad distorted Moshe Rabbeinu and placed the Rebbe as the Moshe Rabbeinu of the generation. So everything needs to go through Moshe Rabbeinu, Moshe Rabbeinu is your connection to Hashem, etc. Yet Rashi goes out of his way to say that, as great as Moshe Rabbeinu was (and he was the greatest), it revolved around davening to Hashem. Rashi makes that clear in parshas amaleik by Videi Moshe keveidim and in Chukas by the nachash. Moshe Rabbeinu’s kever was hidden so he would NOT turn into an avoda by people distorting his role. Yet today we unfortunately see that it has happened. It hurts, like it hurts when you see your friend going OTD. Same kind of knife-in-the-heart pain.

    #1699760

    Chossid
    Participant

    I like your deroshes, but I really don’t know where got your facts from, it’s simply “fake new”.
    Have you asked any Lubavitcher who he davens to?
    I think you should personally go to the ohel and ask anyone there who they are davaning to.

    I will tell you a little secret, the nusach when we go to the ohel is אנא לעורר רחמים רבים עבורי, your asking the Rebbe to be a mielitz yoisher for you, just like by any heilikeh tzadiks kever, and the same with asking a brocha from a Rebbe, it’s not the Rebbe healing you, it’s Hashem himself through the the Rebbes brocha.

    So if you can please explain to me exactly how are we oivid A”Z by davaning at the ohel.

    Can you name exactly which godol said we are being oivid or sofiek A Z? I’m a “tinoik shenishbah”

    I find it so interesting that when I try to make a point and mention about my grandparents not being originally Lubavitche, you turn the whole thing over on me, and say loshen horoah that I’m going to not get job because I’m not geshe.
    And btw where did you get this fact from, I have yet to see a non geshe being restricted to get a job.
    Don’t get your point regarding the Kool-Aid.
    The more a more you post the more I’m releasing that “I’m” a “tinoik shenishbah”.

    #1699772

    Chossid
    Participant

    Chabad is not about their minhagim, Chabad is about the hashkofa, the chassidus.
    You don’t have to change your minhagim, just learn Chabad chassidus.
    My grandparents joined Chabad and still keep allot of there old minhagim.

    #1699834

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Chossid, I have already listed the gedolim but I’ll be happy to do so again:
    Rav Aharon Kotler zt”l
    Rav Shach ZT”L
    Rav Chaim Kohn ZT”L (assuming they believe the Rebbe is alive)
    Rav Menashe Klein zt”l (if they say yechi)
    yblct Rav Aharon Feldman Shlita (assuming they believe the Rebbe is alive)
    Rav Hershel Shachter shlit”a (as per the segulos and superstitions lecture)
    (Many gedolim off the record who don’t want to have a smear campaign against them because they have better things to do, which you find out by having a kesher with Daas Torah)
    That’s quite the range. It should be enough to at least be me’orer a safeik.
    Why risk your olam haba?
    Of course you have questions i can’t answer. I’m not a gadol, just a balabos loser who hangs out in the CR. But the gedolim who do know better than me and aren’t fooled by sophistry have paskened.

    #1699876

    Chossid
    Participant

    “Of course you have questions i can’t answer. I’m not a gadol, just a balabos loser who hangs out in the CR. ”

    (Don’t worry we’re not perfect people, and it’s ok not to have all the answers)

    The reason I asking you these questions, is because it looks like from your posts that you know what these concepts mean, and therefore you claim that we’re violating stuff, but if you can’t explain exactly why it’s completely wrong to start bashing Chabad with all this moitzi Shem rah.

    So if you can’t back up all your facts then either take them back or give me a proper mareh mokoim for ALL your teines. And if you have a question, you got to tell me why the answer is not good.
    It’s completely wrong, when someone asks a question whatever he should join chabad, to start putting down chabad, and spreading lies about Chabad, and even let’s say in theory your teines are true, you still have no right Al pi Torah to say loshen hara.
    If you’re so worried about olam haboh you should stay away from loshen hara, I’m sure you know what chazal say about someone who speaks loshen hara. And it’s a vadai not a sofek.
    So be careful.

    And I’m sure there are more Gedolim that would pasken that what you’re doing wrong, then Gedolim saying that chabad is wrong.

    “But the gedolim who do know better than me and aren’t fooled by sophistry have paskened.”

    For every teineh you posted here , you have to give me
    1. a name of a godol.
    2. Where does he say these facts that you claim.
    3. Why should that override the rest of the Gedolim, Rebbeim that don’t agree with them.

    Until then I have no right to open your mouth.

    I hope I’m not being to tough, I’m just being reasonable.

    #1699891

    Chossid
    Participant

    “Until then I have no right to open your mouth.”
    *You

    #1700053

    LerntminTayrah
    Participant

    Ok We’ll do this again. I have listed multiple gedolim, some alive some not so. Their writings are perusable for all, and it is clearly better for you to speak to them. Like I said, my friend WITNESSED people davening to the Rebbe. Others have heard people say they daven to the Rebbe. It’s the pashut pshat in atzmius, and if you’re not davening directly to the Rebbe then there is no need for the whole “atzmus melubash baguf” sicha. That sicha directly violates the ikkarim that Hashem has no body and that you can’t daven to anyone other than Hashem. A Stump the Rabbi video says that the Rebbe can’t make a mistake, which is clear deification as any human makes mistakes. Another says that everything the rebbe touches had “Elokus”. More deification. You can’t see it and I feel bad for you but don’t listen to me, listen to gedolim. If gedolim say you are eating treif, first you put the sandwich down then you hock. You sau “rest of gedolim”. Which gadol today has come out in support of yechi as NOT being apikorsus, OTHER than chabad people? Name them.

    As for the ones i named, a simple google search can reveal exactly what they said and when. No secrets. Just I’m not supposed to share them here as per the rules of the CR.

    Yaakov Avinu lo meis was a chiddush based on a drasha. Most meforshim learn it NOT pashut pshat, and it was only due to the drasha. Where is this drasha that the Rebbe didn’t die? Honestly speaking, he was an invalid 2 years earlier due to the stroke. He had a second stroke afterwards, then he died. Nobody is certified as dead until they get examined. the death certificate is freely available via google search to see which doctor signed it. Then the body undergoes tahara and shmira. So it’s a long period from the time the person dies until they are buried, Someone who was in the ambulance confirmed that the Rebbe’s body was doing the things that dead bodies do when they are decomposing. And once you’re buried there’s no clawing out of 6 feet of dirt even if you are alive and healthy. Yet there are signs in Crown Heighs saying “der Rebbe lebt begashmiyus”. Signs over 770 saying Rebbe Shlit”a. Spare me the “there’s nothing wrong here!” Talk. We can tell deification when we see it.

    #1700084

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    @lmt you’re mixing kashe mit borsht
    99.9% of “gedolim” that have a prob. with chabad. say very clearly it’s only those that say lo meis.
    None of them have a problem with the moshiach stuff
    Just to name a few
    R Herschel Schachter
    R Nissin Kaplan
    R Shmuel Kamenetsky
    (so get your facts straight – btw in no way am I saying that i need them for proof, its just for u)

    Now regarding the lo meis

    edted

    Second of all we are on a totally diff topic as mentioned previously on this thread and was answered before

    now you have a bunch of questions to answer from @chossid
    You still didnt explain the 13 ikrim to say how we go against it – you just wrote that we go against it.

    Btw according to you… You shouldn’t eat any food that have a major hechsher cuz allot of the mashgichim in the big hechsherim (especially when the plants are in random places) are lubavitcher which according to u is avoda zara and mistama chshash treif…

    #1700089

    Chossid
    Participant

    LerntminTayrah
    I think should read again my comment, (maybe a few times)
    I got the names, but you still haven’t backed up your “facts”. Or took them back. You just missed the point.

    The more you comment the more you show that you don’t know what these words/concepts mean.
    Get a education, what atmus means, why atmus can’t be in a body, what a tzdik is, and what does it mean yakov avinu loi mies, wasn’t he ספדו ספדנייא וחנטו חנטייא וקברו קברייא?

    And again why are you more worried about a sofiek losing olam haboh (according to you) then a vadai…..= Loshen hara?

    #1700161

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    How do you explain this: there was a big dayan in Morocco and his son became Chabad. He wouldn’t eat at his father’s home because they didn’t have shechitat Chabad.

    #1700203

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Yabia – why would anyone need to explain that? What shaichus?

    Chossid- i agree with you that chabad does not say to daven to the rebbe, and he is wrong about dabening at the ohel being just that. It is wrong, however, to say ” with the rebbes help” in place of “bezras Hashem” (and other similar switcharoos) and that IS said and is definitely very much attributing Hashems kochoc to a person.
    I also would like ti clarify a point that i dont think you will accept but i have been saying it over and over….
    You keep telling him to stop saying l”h. Why are you not understanding that if *his* own rabbeim tell him that chabad practices a”z, then reagrdless of what YOUR opinion is, he is *obligated* to speak badly about it to deter others from buying into it. You should not be having trouble understanding that.

    #1700287

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Anyuser: Your facts are off. Pretty much all non-Chabad rabbis have a problem is meshichism. The determining factor of how much of a problem it is is how public they are with it (true of any kefira). Your assertion that “99.9%” of them are fine with it does wonders for discrediting everything you’ve said on this thread, so thanks for that.

    #1700289

    Joseph
    Participant

    It’s interesting to note that Syag strongly objects to generic or broad criticisms of Modern Orthodoxy but does the same herself regarding Chabad.

    #1700339

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    @ncb
    Not sure what u mean but sounds good

    ——-
    Hilchos chometz umatza perek 7 halacha 2:
    A father should teach his son according to the son’s knowledge: How is this applied? If the son is young or foolish, he should tell him: “My son, in Egypt, we were all slaves like this maidservant or this slave. On this night, the Holy One, Blessed be He, redeemed us and took us out to freedom.”

    If the son is older and wise, he should inform him what happened to us in Egypt and the miracles wrought for us by Moses, our teacher; everything according to the son’s knowledge.

    You decide

    #1700357

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Syag:

    What I mean to say is it’s a little chutzpadik to leave a moreshet that can be traced directly to the Geonim and further, and to adopt a movement that’s been around maybe 200 years, and then not way at your father’s house. This father was a Dayan and Talmid Chacham, not some am haaretz that didn’t keep kosher.

    #1700384

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    So basically you’re spreading lashon hora about him?

    #1700414

    Non Political
    Participant

    I thought there would be no “chidushim” in this thread. I stand corrected

    Chiddush 1
    The Nefesh HaChaimin, in disagreement with his Rebbe, the GR”A, based his teachings on Chabbad Chassidus in”many” places. The evidence brought for this was NH 3-7. People who don’t know this are said to simply be unfamiliar with the NH. (Such people are probably also not familiar with the Kitvei Ramchal which dovetail nicely with the NH and preceded Chabad but never mind such pesky trivialities.)

    Chiddush 2
    It has always been normative Judaism to declare one’s Rebbe Moshiach It was the maskilim, in opposition to the very inyan of Moshiach, who opposed this and the Litvish oilem was of course mushpah from the maskilim. The evidence brought for this is the gemara in Sanhedrin and Rabbi Akiva declaring Bar Kochba Moshiach.

    Got it

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