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There seems to unfortunately be a widespread problem of certain kiruv organizations being “mekarev” goyim. Generally non-Jews that grew up in a Conservative or Reform household, either adopted by the Conservative or Reform parents (and born non-Jewish and going through an invalid Conservative or Reform “conversion”), or even children of a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother (or non-Jewish maternal grandmother), that the child just assumed they are Jewish even though they are obviously halachicly non-Jewish.
Sometimes after being “mekarev” these goyim, the kiruv organization will put them through the motions of an Orthodox conversion. But Judaism is not a proselytizing religion and we seek to discourage, not encourage, geirus. Additionally, many of these conversions are insincere and the person later drops all pretenses of Orthodox Judaism. They should never have been mekareved or converted in the first place.
Another problem is the proselytizing some organizations do of goyish spouses of Jews. But we’ll leave that discussion, possibly much worse than the above, for another day.
You are making a bunch of hanachos without providing any factual support to substantiate them.
It sounds like you might have an organization particularly in mind but I can’t quite tell.
A kiruv organization that I know goes after Jews thats it. Sometimes people, like you described who think they’re Jewish, will show up. Usually the Rabbi and Rebbitzen try to sort them out. Sometimes its much later down the line. The goal is not to convert them. However, after learning and living life as a frum Yid, then the go through the process. (Which I have heard is easier/shorter if a father is halachicaly Jewish but the mother is not)
I have never heard of an orginization doing that. I do know a kiruv professional who was involved with just such a person – who came to THEM and it was only much further on that they realized that she wasn’t halachically Jewish. How such a case is handled is done on a case by case basis with rabbinical guidance.
Obaminator: interesting, but lets give a hypothetical (and your post was the first that I hear of this, so I have no negius one way or the other).
Imagine a couple, one side jewish, the other not really. If the halachic geirus of one side is an impediment to the other becoming a ba’al or ba’alas teshuva, should one push that both husband and wife should be miskarev, and a real geirus may have to be done to one side at a later date? Once again, your post just raised the idea, I had not thought about the issue before.
While in general we don’t encourage conversion, the situation you describe is not so pashut. There is a big problem, especially in Reform, with children of only a Jewish father being raised as Jews and told that they are Jews because “you only need 1 Jewish parent”. Some Rabbeim have held that a child of a Jewish father who is brought up in a Reform shul (and therefore thinks he’s Jewish) SHOULD be steered toward a proper conversion so that they can be legitimately Jewish rather than saying they are but really aren’t. Obviously, if they’re not going to sincerely convert, you do go ahead with it, but you at least get them to know enough to realize they’re not Jewish. Also, some hold that you do try to convert a spouse- they’re already married, might as well attempt to make it legitimate (again, it doesn’t always work, but if it does, that’s much better than the status quo).
Also, it’s a complete myth that a conversion for marriage is automatically invalid. It is automatically SUSPECT, but NOT necessarily invalid.
gavra: To become a baal or baalus teshuva, the person needs to leave the non-Jew they “married”. That can’t be compromised.
Obaminator- “Another problem is the proselytizing some organizations do of goyish spouses of Jews. But we’ll leave that discussion, possibly much worse than the above, for another day”
Are you saying you disagree with this approach? What if I told you that leading Poskim (R’ Elyashiv Shlita for one) say when one spouse is not frum and is interested in yiddeshkeit and is married to a goy we are more lenient with having the conversion? (I dont mean that s/he can only be mikabel 612, rather we dont try has hard to convince him/her our of it.)
gavra: To become a baal or baalus teshuva, the person needs to leave the non-Jew they “married”. That can’t be compromised.
OK, that is your opinion. Anyone else?
yes
that is also my opinion
GAW: I’ll disagree. Please bring a source Shein: Obviously you wouldn’t be allowed to live with her again until she converts, but I cannot think of a source that says that once she does you can’t remarry her. (And yes, I know that we do not force Ba’alei T’shuvah to do all the mitzvos at once. I’m just talking Me’ikar Hadin.)
yes
that is also my opinion
With you I can have a discussion.
To be sure what you are saying (and I’m not saying right or wrong, I don’t know), you would be willing to reject a potential “kiruv” guy if he insists on attendning with his conservative “converted” wife? Or the opposite?
depends on what point the process is in, how firm his feelings are, and a huge host of other more subtle factors.
but im not a kiruv expert, posek, or Talmid Chochom.
a discussion with me would be spinning wheels
but you asked for my opinion.
my opinion is that of the kiruv experts, Poskim, and Talmedai Chochomim that i know.
gavra: To become a baal or baalus teshuva, the person needs to leave the non-Jew they “married”. That can’t be compromised.
And what about the kids (if they have some)
Should they abandon the kids (if the kids are not halachily jewish)
to clarify my answer a little, since it was a little muddled
ultimately the spouse would have to undergo a proper meaningful conversion or be dropped.
what to do if he still refuses, i dont know
gaw- We shouldnt turn away someone that wants to know more about yiddishkeit regardless of whom they are married to. We teach them more about torah and yiddishkeit and tell them that we dont allow marrying a non jew. We do not say “first let me see divorce papers and then we can talk”.(The same for the guy in your shul who speaks Loshon Horah all day long that we dont throw him out of shul until he swears to never say l”h again)
With a Ger its a different story. Either he accepts ALL 613 or no geirus.
to clarify my answer a little, since it was a little muddled
ultimately the spouse would have to undergo a proper meaningful conversion or be dropped.
what to do if he still refuses, i dont know
I think that is a given. My question is do we reject the applicant because maybe the spouse will want to convert (or is even looking to “convert correctly”).
i think i totally misunderstood the issue under consideration here.
i officially hereby forthwith and without further adieu withdraw my comments.
I was told to treat a non-halachic convert who showed up at a kiruv event just like anyone else and that the halachic reasoning is that they have already proven a certain level of sincerity in being willing to have themselves declared Jewish to the best of their knowledge at the time.
actually i think its ado not adieu
i think adieu is french for goodbye or something
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